Been a Muslim for 23 years, I would like to clear misconceptions you have

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Jakubb said:
There were no prophets between Jesus(pbuh) and Muhammad(pbuh) Paul has no authority. Paul proved nothing to anybody. He was just a liar who interpolated the bible and the message of Jesus(pbuh)

The earliest followers of Christ practiced Islam not Christianity. Paul changed the message of Jesus(pbuh)
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Pearls; meet swine.
 
dronald said:
Well there is the whole Uthman burning the Qurans thing.
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Yeah, but my point is: I cannot empirically prove that the Quran is not the word of Allah and Jakubb cannot prove that the Bible is corrupt. However, he speaks as if what he claims is fact. I just want him to admit that what he believes cannot be proven i.e. he has faith that the Bible is corrupt and that his religion is from God, something else he cannot prove until he actually meets Allah and asks…🤷
 
Jakubb said:
Ok hold on let me find for you.

sonofman.org/paul1.htm

patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2012/12/what-did-paul-know-about-jesus-not-much/

Earliest followers of Jesus(pbuh) followed the Mosaic law which no Christians today do. Why?
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I am sure you are really not interested, and I don’t want to derail the thread, so I will keep it brief. This is just the tip of the iceberg: didn’t the prophets foresee a new covenant between God and the human race i.e. a new basis of relationship, which might include new observances? Yes. The fact that a new covenant would be made certainly has implications vis-a-vis the covenant of Sinai: the Sinai covenant was only temporary, serving a temporary purpose i.e. it was not the finished product of God’s ultimate plan and purpose for both Jews (God’s chosen people) and the rest of the world. The new covenant, unlike the one made at Sinai, is to last forever i.e. designed for eternal life. If this is true then it stands to reason that God planned to usher in a new epoch (resulting in eternal implications) in which God would establish a new covenant resulting in changes and and new observances:👍

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
 
dronald said:
Well there is the whole Uthman burning the Qurans thing.
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Gentlemen,
When the first President Bush dealt with Arafat, it is the first time someone accidentally or on pupose treated him correctly for Arafat’s core purpose, which is to kill people like me or to convert them.
In a hadith, whatever that is, Muslims are told to lie to us. They even misuse words like Peace which only has one meaning to them.
They also like another group will say anything, and you are trying to rationally talk to a Muslim, who is saying I have been one boldly for 23 years.
Be careful.
…Curt.
 
KendraDZ1902 said:
Do you have historical evidence of this? Like writings from early followers of Christ that point to this?
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Writings is tough to find many have been destroyed. But I know relatives of Isa(Jesus) did not agree with what Paul was saying and trying to change what Jesus(pbuh) taught. I will try to show some evidence.

You can look here. biblehub.com/matthew/26-39.htm

This is how we pray today also.
 
Jakubb said:
It is the only religion that makes sense. Holy trinity makes no sense.

Muhammad said he was the final messenger. Nowhere did Jesus say he was the last prophet and nowhere did Jesus say he was God.
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First off, Islam does not make sense either, it states that God did not preserve His word the first few times, which seems like bad policy. As for the Trinity, it does not make sense, I will give you that, but God did create logic and therefore defines. This is true in this case the Bible’s position and not the other as this one is not an error in policy, but something which we simply cannot comprehend. As for the authenticity of the Bible, the writings of it are supported by archaeology and its comtemporary writers, ie. the early Church fathers and various historians (Josephus for example).
It is simply bad policy if God were to allow the writers of His word to corrupt it. It is not only an error in sense, but also it seems to me that if God wants to be worshipped, He would preserve His message the first time around.
Also the Quran says the world is flat is quran 15:19. I’, going to assume you’ve read this and I look forward to your response. It also contradicts in verses 32:4 and 9:71. The ball is in your court.
 
Jakubb said:
It is the only religion that makes sense. Holy trinity makes no sense.
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It does when it is explained well.

There is only one God.
Within that one God are three persons.
They are not three Gods.

How is that possible? Well, consider that a dog is a being but not a person. A man is a being and one person. God is a being and three persons. From this you can see that while we usually think one being = one person, in fact, the number of persons “in” a being can vary depending on the nature of that being.

We have a human nature. God has a divine nature. The three persons who share the one divine nature are referred to by God Himself as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. All of them are referred to individually or collectively as “He”. The Holy Spirit is not an “It”.

Unlike human fathers who are older than their sons, God the Father did not exist before God the Son or God the Holy Spirit.

The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
The Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit.
The Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.
Muhammad said he was the final messenger. Nowhere did Jesus say he was the last prophet and nowhere did Jesus say he was God.
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Of course he did. But he was subtle given the audience.

I. Did Jesus claim to be God?

1. Jesus claimed the Divine Name (‘I AM’)

Exodus 3:14
13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” 15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you’: this is my name for ever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.

John 8:58
53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you claim to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is your God. 55 But you have not known him; I know him. If I said, I do not know him, I should be a liar like you; but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad.” 57 The Jews then said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.

Why did the Jews want to stone Jesus if they did not believe that He was claiming to be God?

2. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God and equal to God.

John 5:18
16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

3. Jesus claimed to be the First and the Last – a Title Reserved for God Alone

Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.”

Revelation 1:17-18
“Do not be afraid; I [Jesus] am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”

Would a mere prophet claim to be the “First and the Last”?

4. Jesus claimed to be Truth – not just to proclaim the truth.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

5. Jesus claimed to share in Divine Glory

In the Old Testament, we find that Yahweh will not share his glory with anyone.

Isaiah 42:8
“I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another.” (Cf. Isaiah 48:11—“My glory I will not give to another.”)

Yet Jesus claimed, not only that he would be glorified with the Father, but that he had glory with the Father before the world was created!

John 17:5
“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

How can anyone see this as anything other than a claim to deity?

6. Jesus claimed to be the Messiah and the Son of God Before the Sanhedrin

Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Daniel prophesied that the Son of Man would be worshiped as God.

Mark 14:61-65
61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” They all condemned him as worthy of death.

Replying to the High Priest at His trial before the Sanhedrin, Jesus quoted the Daniel and applied this prophecy to Himself.
 
dronald said:
Even your articles (though heavily biased) admit that Paul knew of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus; something all books in the NT confirm.

You should read them some time.
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They are not Islamic articles. I purposely avoided giving Islamic perspective to show the view that Paul is a liar is not just Islamic. I can give you Islamic articles if you want, they are more thorough and take some time to study.
 
Jakubb said:
Writings is tough to find many have been destroyed. But I know relatives of Isa(Jesus) did not agree with what Paul was saying and trying to change what Jesus(pbuh) taught. I will try to show some evidence.

You can look here. biblehub.com/matthew/26-39.htm

This is how we pray today also.
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Read that whole chapter; I promise you it looks nothing like Islam:

Matthew 26:53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?

54 But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so? "
 
Jakubb said:
They are not Islamic articles. I purposely avoided giving Islamic perspective to show the view that Paul is a liar is not just Islamic. I can give you Islamic articles if you want, they are more thorough and take some time to study.
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Why don’t you lay out your own evidence based on your own research? Try reading the Bible.

Start at Matthew 1, finish at the end of Revelation; then let’s have a discussion.

You have proven you know nothing of Christianity and are simply stating your opinions based on your beliefs. I have read the Qur’an, the Hadith’s, I’ve written essays and spent much time with Islam and Islamic history. You should do the same.

Read the Bible. Read what Paul wrote. Read the writings of the earliest Christians; even pre-constantine. Tell me if you find Muhammad anywhere.
 
Jakubb said:
Writings is tough to find many have been destroyed. But I know relatives of Isa(Jesus) did not agree with what Paul was saying and trying to change what Jesus(pbuh) taught. I will try to show some evidence.

You can look here. biblehub.com/matthew/26-39.htm

This is how we pray today also.
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I’m trying to be real brief because there is only you and a bunch of us. :)Is the following found in the Quran (Surah 9:30): the Jews believe that Ezra is the Son of God - the Messiah, which of course is not accurate?
 
dronald said:
Even your articles (though heavily biased) admit that Paul knew of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus; something all books in the NT confirm.

You should read them some time.
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Yes, please jakubb, look into Christianity rather than just islam. I learn how to argue with non-Catholics by actually reading what they have to say. I learned how to argue against Protestantism with the help of Gotquestions, Jesus is savior, CARM, and handy old james white and John MacArthur videos (I know they do not represent all of Protestantism but they do pay the most attention to attacking “romanism.” Also, when going for the real anti-Catholics, gotta love Jack Chick. I know, off topic. I actually going to start studying Islam, do you have any sources you suggest?
 
I think, Jakubb, that what everyone is trying to say is that you need to begin to think for yourself rather than simply repeating what you have been told by others.

Allah has given you a great mind and he expects you to use it. Failure to use that gift would be an insult to the one who bestowed it upon you.

Peace.
 
Jakubb said:
Writings is tough to find many have been destroyed. But I know relatives of Isa(Jesus) did not agree with what Paul was saying and trying to change what Jesus(pbuh) taught. I will try to show some evidence.

You can look here. biblehub.com/matthew/26-39.htm

This is how we pray today also.
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That’s it? That’s all you got? Like Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants don’t fall on their faces and pray for God’s will? Lol. Alrighty.
You might want to research Christianity, particularly Catholicism. Prostration isn’t an unheard of thing.

Also, In find it rather convenient that writings that support your claims are destroyed, but writings from the early church fathers are still around. 🤷
 
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