Been away from CAF for a little while

[Magnum_V8]

I’ve been away for a couple days now, in a dog fight defending the Catholic church on a Christianity forum I stumbled across. For some reason they just don’t understand that we believe in Sacred Tradition AND Sacred Scripture. I’m certainly no apologist, but luckily the minds I’m dealing with must not be thoroughly educated in Protestantism.

A woman on there claims to be non-denominational, but not anti-Catholic, although she doesn’t agree with a lot of the Church teachings. Anyway, after many, many posts/responses, she has said that she finds me very inspiring, and even thought I was a Catholic priest. She said she just bought “Worthy is the Lamb” and “The Lamb’s Supper.” Of course, I don’t know how truthful she is. Either way, I do pray for her and everyone else on that forum.

Anyway, keep me in your prayers (a BIG no-no with them) that I serve Holy Mother Church well.

 

[mommyof4]

Good lucka and God bless!

 

[lak611]

Anyway, keep me in your prayers (a BIG no-no with them) that I serve Holy Mother Church well.

Do they not believe in prayer? I have never heard of anyone who says he is Christian but does not pray. I will pray for you.

 

[Magnum_V8]

They vehemently argue against asking others for prayers, particularly the Saints and Mary. The just don’t even try to accept what I’m telling them, that we are not praying to the Saints or Mary in an effort to request something from them that God can only give. I must’ve explained to them 4 or 5 times that we pray to Saints and Mary asking that they remember us in their own prayers to the Heavenly Father.

Someone actually responded, “what, you think they could hear the prayers of 100,000 people praying to them at the same time?”

To which I responded with my own prayer, “Christ Jesus, truly present in the tabernacles of the world, hear the prayers of the multitudes of people that request Your intercession. In Your mercy, look not on their sins, but upon the faith they have in You. Amen.”

 

[lak611]

They vehemently argue against asking others for prayers, particularly the Saints and Mary. The just don’t even try to accept what I’m telling them, that we are not praying to the Saints or Mary in an effort to request something from them that God can only give. I must’ve explained to them 4 or 5 times that we pray to Saints and Mary asking that they remember us in their own prayers to the Heavenly Father.

Someone actually responded, “what, you think they could hear the prayers of 100,000 people praying to them at the same time?”

To which I responded with my own prayer, “Christ Jesus, truly present in the tabernacles of the world, hear the prayers of the multitudes of people that request Your intercession. In Your mercy, look not on their sins, but upon the faith they have in You. Amen.”

You may want to ask them if they ever ask their neighbours to pray for them. Then point to [this verse](Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God.) to show that the saints are offering prayers to God.

 

[Magnum_V8]

They’ve said the bible is only referring to earthly people.

 

[mommyof4]

Know what? I honestly feel sorry for them. I rely on the intercession of Mary and the saints so much, I don’t know what I’d do without them.

 

[Magnum_V8]

Know what? I honestly feel sorry for them. I rely on the intercession of Mary and the saints so much, I don’t know what I’d do without them.

Allow me to play devil’s advocate, mommyof4.

There is but one intercessor between God and mankind. And that is Jesus Christ. How can you ask Mary or saints for intercession? That’s God’s territory.

Response?

 

[mahleh]

Please do the following. Give an exact defintion of these two words…worship and veneration. Many protestants do not understand the difference. Once enlightened, many realize that our faith is just as fun as it can be. I had to straighten out a protestant minister one time. He nearly lost his job over it, because I threatened to inform his boss if he didn’t straighten out. I hate Catholic bashing. I do not bash their beliefs, they need to learn to understand mine before they go on about us.

 

[Magnum_V8]

Good idea about the definitions; I’ll look into it. But I’m sure they’ll say, “Where is veneration in the bible?” Bible, bible, bible…do they not read the verses, such as the end of John’s letters, that say, “I have more to tell you, but not by paper and ink. I hope to see you face to face.” Oral tradition, baaaaaby…oral tradition.

Now we’re on to the whole “saved by faith alone” argument. What could they be thinking? I’ve referenced James and they respond that its directed towards other men, not God. Then I ask “why does Jesus say, 'whatever you DO to the least of my brethren, you DO to me.” Nobody’s responded yet.

Mahleh, I totally agree about not bashing other religions. I haven’t said a single condemning word about their religion. Of course, that hasn’t stopped me from defending the doctrines of Holy Mother Church, confessing that we are the Church Jesus founded. But a few of the posters just continue to hate on us.

 

[mahleh]

When they refer to us asking the saints to pray for us, repeat their verse back to them, if they actually know their bible, you may ask others to pray for you. It does not specify living or dead. If it did they could not pray to Jesus, assuming of course they believe in the crucifixion. Did I mention I have some great priests for friends? Smarmy that back to them.

 

[Proeliator]

MAGNUM V8, keep pumping em’ up! Ask them where it says in scripture…Scripture alone?, and what about those Christians who came before the bible was put together? How were they taught?

 

[lak611]

MAGNUM V8, keep pumping em’ up! Ask them where it says in scripture…Scripture alone?, and what about those Christians who came before the bible was put together? How were they taught?

I recommend this free MP3 from Bible Christian Society.

 

[Mimi]

MAGNUM V8, keep pumping em’ up! Ask them where it says in scripture…Scripture alone?, and what about those Christians who came before the bible was put together? How were they taught?

Right. Sola Scriptura, sola fide… there’s another sola ____.

THESE ARE the doctrines made up by Martin Luther! The same manmade traditions they rail against Catholics for making up.

Just this week, 7/2/07, The Journey Home guest was Fr. Charles Connor.
The show is available in audio at
ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/SeriesSearchprog.asp?SeriesID=-6892289&NewLis%20t=&T1=journey
Fr. Connor also said that the being “born again” thing sounds silly (although he used another word) to Catholics. It is a fairly recent thing that has come to be a sort of catch phrase. Catholics believe we are born of water and the spirit at baptism, of course, and that another baptism isn’t necessary. Now, of course, one can experinece a re-conversion or re-awakening of religious fervor or love for God, but that grace received in baptism is always with us.

So usually, it comes down to Authority. Who had the authority in the 1st place to decide which books/writings were going to comprise the canon of Holy Scripture? (A: The Catholic Church)
If they believe the Bible is sacred, and no other writings are authoritative, then they DO believe the CC had some authority to declare it so!

If your conversations seem to be fruitless, I’d advise you to bow out and just pray for their conversion. You probably planted a lot of good seed at that site.

Peace,
Mimi

 

[lak611]

Just this week, 7/2/07, The Journey Home guest was Fr. Charles Connor.
The show is available in audio at
ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/SeriesSearchprog.asp?SeriesID=-6892289&NewLis%20t=&T1=journey
Fr. Connor also said that the being “born again” thing sounds silly (although he used another word) to Catholics. It is a fairly recent thing that has come to be a sort of catch phrase. Catholics believe we are born of water and the spirit at baptism, of course, and that another baptism isn’t necessary. Now, of course, one can experinece a re-conversion or re-awakening of religious fervor or love for God, but that grace received in baptism is always with us.

I agree. I had a reconversion experience when I was 32. I had been away from the Church for 5 years. After reading the Bible all the way through for the first time, I finally understood what the Church had taught me in CCD and Catholic high school. I repented of my sin, went to Confession and went back to the Church. I also joined a Bible study at my parish. I do not think I would have done this if not for God’s Grace. He had me when I was baptised as an infant. I went away, but He had another plan for me, since He knew how to bring me back. Praise God! :bible1:

 

[po18guy]

MagnumV8, glad to hear you have been fighting the good fight. As to scripture and tradition, in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Paul admonished the early believers: “So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.” Word of mouth was the oral tradition.

As to scripture being their all, please refer them to: John 21:25
“Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.” Thus, the scripture which we use could be termed Sacred Cliff’s Notes. It is NOT the whole Jesus, it is a condensation of His life and teaching-Sacred as it is.

When presenting the truth to Protesters (my bad!), be aware that many of them are virulently anti-Catholic. I encountered this just this past Monday. However, I believe that this anger-sometimes hatred-is based on fear of the truth. Just be ready for rejection. Like the sower, don’t stand there waiting for the seed to sprout, just keep on sowing.

God Bless you my brother.

 

[Magnum_V8]

po18guy,

I’m surprised this thread got a new response…its been awhile.

I was arguing last night with someone about the Real Presence. Of course, he was a Protestant that believed Jesus was being symbolic with “this IS My Body.”

When I mentioned that it was NOT symbolic, this was his response:

Has anyone thought of this? When Jesus said “You must eat my flesh and drink my blood,” why did he use bread and wine? Did he not have the perfect opertunity to have his real flesh and blood as the first euchrist? Would he not have then said,“After this, you must use bread and wine.” It is because the last supper was a Jewish sader at the Passover. The “bread” was the center piece of three matzas called the offecomen(spelling?) which was hidden durring the meal and the wine was the third of four glasses representing the blood of the passover lamb. Jesus was revealing that Jewish feast it’s true meaning. It was symbolic then, and it is symbolic today.

Focusing on his last line, I replied:

No, I’ve never thought of that, and never would I. It was not symbolic. Where does it say in the bible that it was symbolic?

“And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?” Paul further goes on to say that he who eats and drinks unworthily casts judgment upon himself, not discerning the body. “Not discerning the body” means that he doesn’t recognize Who that is.

Here’s the clincher, he says:

I don’t think it has to say it was symbolic for it to be so. Just as the OT Jews knew their sins were not litterally placed on the head of a goat.

Are you thinking the same way I was? Would you have responded like how I did:

That’s not fair. You have to provide some biblical foundation for it being symbolic; that’s the entire basis of sola scriptura. To compare it to a totally unrelated passage does not prove or disprove the passage in question. You do know, of course, that Jesus did use a very symbolic tone when He said, “the Kingdom of God is LIKE a mustard seed…” So, clearly, Jesus was capable of being symbolic when He wanted to.

Bada Bing, Bada Boom!!! He finally acknowledged it:

You’re right, but, can we continue this. I’m in Fl. and it’s waaay past my bedtime. I do enjoy our conversations.

Sorry, I know its a long post. But to get a Protestant to acknowledge that maybe sola scriptura doesn’t exist, well…

 

[po18guy]

MagnumV8,

I signed up a while back, but never actively used the forum. Recently, a Google search brought up a page, and I couldn’t resist returning. Your arguments are great. However, just be prepared for the possibility of eventual rejection. Many will argue with you in a brotherly fashion before being cornered and falling back to cliches. This is human nature. I’ve found that I have to combine the evangelization with prayer on their behalf. If they are conversing with you, it reveals that their heart is still seeking. The best apologists I have heard alway leave others with the admonition “Always seek the truth”. I can think of nothing better.

I can only advise to appeal to the Holy Spirit, who was left to us to teach us what to say. He’s done a great job with you so far, wouldn’t you say? The Apostles must have felt just the same when they had trouble spreading the Gospel in the early days. So, when we feel inadequate, or in doubt, we are actually blessed, just as the early evangelists were.

God Bless you, my brother, in your quest to spread the truth.

po18guy

 

[Magnum_V8]

po18guy,

Its very interesting you bring up the issue of the Holy Spirit, in a sense, “using” me to deliver the Good News.

That came up in an argument today. We were on the sola fide issue. I responded to someone’s comment, directed to me, that it seemed to him that I depend to much on works.

To make a long story short, I told him that I’ve never considered works that I do to be my own; rather, I am an mere instrument, a tool, of the Holy Spirit. Everything good comes from Above. The only thing I depend on is the merciful hand of God, the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and the power of the Holy Spirit.

Thanks for your encouraging words.

 

[po18guy]

MagnumV8,

On those occasions when I allow the Holy Spirit to evangelize using me, I tell those around me that I consider myself to be God’s crescent wrench. I am just one of many tools in His tool box. He takes me out from time to time when He has a job for me. When He’s through, He puts me back in the box. Then, I tell them that when you have a plumbing leak, you call the plumber. When the leak is fixed, you don’t pick up the wrench and thank it. You thank the plumber.

This helps me to see that it is Him, and not me doing the work. I’m trying to remain humble, because pride easily slips in when you see firsthand the amazing works that the Lord does in the human heart.

Christ’s peace, my brother.

po18guy