Been Struggling with a Question

[TryingToLearn]

Also, I feel your pain. I’m sorry for what happened (at least, before the optimism you found in God). I once had a friend I loved and cherished dearly. The very last person in a 1,000,000 light-year radius that I wanted to lose. Not a single time taken for granted. One day, literally overnight, she flipped and completely changed into a different person I no longer recognized, without warning. Just one day, bang, and she’s someone else. The person I felt closer to than anyone else, even my own family. It hit me so hard I’d never felt so much pain before, and it screwed me up so much you have no idea. I still am affected by it, by the way, and this happened over a year ago. I couldn’t imagine the same happening with someone I married :\

This is, by the way, why I’m incredibly skeptical of love, in a philosophical sense.

You’re looking at love the wrong way… Three years later and even with my joy found in God there is still pain, why? Because I love her, I made the choice to love her. It means I gave myself to her, I want the best for her, and I want to help her along the path to eternal joy. Watching her hurt herself, hurt her children, use others, grow ever further from God and her family, I am saddened and feel a pain inside. Love is the reason.

There is far too much to explain what may or may not have led to her leaving, then to divorce, but it doesn’t prove love doesn’t exist. The fact that, like Jesus on the Cross, human beings can be hurt and still find forgiveness and have a desire for the one that hurt them to find the goodness of God is where proof of love and God is found.

To think that love can cause one so much pain is a reason to not believe in love is to not understand what love is. Love means putting your heart at the mercy of another, love is truly deciding that you would willingly die that the other might live, love is exposing yourself to the possibility of great pain if you do lose that person, for any reason. It is not the magic feeling in the movies, it is a very powerful choice that is only possible when God acts in and through you.

What I have experienced is a great blessing and an answer to my prayers. I have always believed the Gospel, that God loves us so much that He gave His only begotten Son to atone for our sins. I understood it intellectually, academically. But I didn’t fully comprehend and appreciate it in my heart and spirit. I didn’t really understand how much God loved me. I prayed and asked Him to help me understand. He tried in many ways, but it was deaf to Him, but He taught me how to love her in a manner similar to how He loved me, and when she decided to toss aside so much and hurt me and my kids He didn’t let her actions simply be an evil in my life He allowed me to feel the pain, recognize the depth if my love and see how it was but a shadow of His love for me. I have felt just a small part of the depth of the love He has for me. He suffered so much more than I have and He did it for me, because that is how much He loves me and He wants me to know Him and His love.

He answers prayers. He changes you. He knows what your truly need and leads you to it so you can attain what you were made to desire, His eternal love.

And yes Catholic marriages fail. It is a covenant between God and two sinful, flawed humans. He doesn’t take away our free will, we can always turn away from Him. We have to cooperate with the grace He gives, not just expect it to be some sort of passive magic effect… But, if I was sincere in my vows and she was sincere in hers, we are bound for life, and that can’t be changed… Though some will ignore it…

 

[HardRockGTR]

I just find it hard to put trust into anyone (or anything, really) after that sort of event happens, and whether it’s even worth trying to “replace” that person. I know that, from your Christian standpoint, what you need in the end is God’s love. However, love for other individuals is not only necessary, but also a biblical duty. God is love. Therefore, if the person one loved more than anyone else leaves or flips over, and one “replaces” him/her later on with another individual (like so many people do after a failed marriage, or worse, after being widowed), then either 1) they never “truly” loved that person in the first place, because they replaced him/her in the end and therefore must never assume that the love one currently has is the “true” love, or 2) love really just is an arbitrary, cold, systematic, biochemical process that occurs, so there’s no reason to assume that the next love you find will stay, and that there’s no such thing as “true” love. From there on out, it’s safe to assume that philosophical love doesn’t actually exist and that compassion and empathy are mere side-effects of evolution and natural selection.

I want to feel as if this is a false dichotomy, but from a non-religious standpoint like my own, it’s not easy to assume it to be.

This is why I’ve come to conclusion that not only will I not find anyone like my friend again (it doesn’t have to be a friend, it could be a romantic partner or family member), but come to think of it, I don’t think I want to find anyone else like that, because 1) I’d immediately assume that that person will just leave or change for no discernible reason without warning, like she did (I still have not a single clue as to why she did, and I’ve thought about it a lot), and 2) it would greatly injure my view on love, because I’d have “replaced” someone that once mattered truly to me, but in the same way I could replace a broken piece of plumbing. There are plenty of other PVC pipes in the sea. Makes it feel as if love is completely arbitrary and that once again, you could easily replace the aforementioned newly-found love. This means that in the end, losing a person doesn’t really matter anyway because love is a temporary hormonal disbalance. This pretty much amounts to nihilism, a philosophy I certainly don’t want to abide to.

In my case, I’m skeptical as to whether “she” ever actually was there, or if she was just “being nice”, or if she is a pathological liar, etc. The very first thing I wanted for her was to be happy. Then, when she changed, I began to wonder if the girl I had known for so long was actually real in the first place, and not just some sort of front put up by a charlatan. That said, I’m not sure that when I loved her, I actually loved a real person (in a figurative sense, of course), so I’m not sure whether I ever even wanted whoever she actually is, whatever that may be, to be happy.

One reason I signed up on this forum as a non-Christian is to play devil’s advocate, because I like to be proven, or to the very least, evidenced, wrong, no matter what side I’m on in a debate.

As for my first question, you misunderstood. I’m confused as to how you’re getting a divorce as a Catholic.

 

[Della]

As to your last question to TryingToLearn, the Church does not forbid divorce, if that’s your objection.

Divorce is a civil act, not a sacramental one. The Catholic who does divorce has two choices–to live as a celibate as one who is sacramentally married, if not civilly married. Or, to seek an annulment of their marriage. The declaration of an annulment means that no sacramental marriage ever took place. It says nothing about the civil union nor the legitimacy of any children.

In TryingToLearn’s case, he cannot get an annulment merely because his wife was unfaithful and divorced him (assuming that happens). But, if it can be shown that she did not intend to keep her vows, for example, then he may receive an annulment, if the marriage tribunal so judges.

I hope that helps.

 

[HardRockGTR]

As to your last question to TryingToLearn, the Church does not forbid divorce, if that’s your objection.

Divorce is a civil act, not a sacramental one. The Catholic who does divorce has two choices–to live as a celibate as one who is sacramentally married, if not civilly married. Or, to seek an annulment of their marriage. The declaration of an annulment means that no sacramental marriage ever took place. It says nothing about the civil union nor the legitimacy of any children.

In TryingToLearn’s case, he cannot get an annulment merely because his wife was unfaithful and divorced him (assuming that happens). But, if it can be shown that she did not intend to keep her vows, for example, then he may receive an annulment, if the marriage tribunal so judges.

I hope that helps.

A bit… but I thought the sole reason the Anglican church came to be was because Henry VIII couldn’t get a divorce as the church refused to let him have one. As far as I’m concerned, divorce is forbidden by the church, and it’s meant to dissolve a marriage. Annulment, as I’ve understood, doesn’t dissolve anything, as the marriage wasn’t there in the first place, like you said.

From my agnostic point of view, it would seem that divorce means the marriage didn’t happen in the first place because one or both members of the couple ended up not loving the other in the end.

Thanks for the response!

 

[Della]

A bit… but I thought the sole reason the Anglican church came to be was because Henry VIII couldn’t get a divorce as the church refused to let him have one. As far as I’m concerned, divorce is forbidden by the church, and it’s meant to dissolve a marriage. Annulment, as I’ve understood, doesn’t dissolve anything, as the marriage wasn’t there in the first place, like you said.

From my agnostic point of view, it would seem that divorce means the marriage didn’t happen in the first place because one or both members of the couple ended up not loving the other in the end.

Thanks for the response!

Henry VIII wanted an annulment of his marriage to Queen Katherine on the grounds that he had married his brother’s wife. People commonly use the term divorce, but that is a civil dissolution of a marriage and not a canonical declaration that no sacramental marriage occurred.

 

[HardRockGTR]

Henry VIII wanted an annulment of his marriage to Queen Katherine on the grounds that he had married his brother’s wife. People commonly use the term divorce, but that is a civil dissolution of a marriage and not a canonical declaration that no sacramental marriage occurred.

Ah? I did not know that.

And yet he still couldn’t get the annulment?

 

[Della]

Ah? I did not know that.

And yet he still couldn’t get the annulment?

The Church ruled that he had not made his case since his brother had died before he married Katherine. Personally, I think he should have tried for an annulment on other grounds, such as not fully consenting due to his age or some other such impediment, but it’s a bit too late to suggest that to him now.

 

[TryingToLearn]

Ah? I did not know that.

And yet he still couldn’t get the annulment?

Before he married her he asked the Pope if he could legitimately marry his brother’s widow. The Pope said that was not an obstacle to marriage. Then later he wanted the Pope to invalidate that marriage on the same grounds the Pope had already said was not an obstacle…

Of course he couldn’t get an annulment for that reason

 

[pwlj_christ87]

God always answers prayers. there are three possibilities and one of them is taken course when you pray, remember that every one means that god is helping n your best interest

1. your prayer is answered, you are granted what you asked for whether spiritual material or otherwise
2. your prayer is denied. for your best interest, because if a child asked for bleach from under the sink, god your father wouldn’t give it to you. (this taken from a preist of my church during a homily)
3. your prayer is denied until it is granted in gods time (later on). again for your best interest.

gods ways are not your ways. his thoughts are not yours. all you can do is pray to him to do his will. he takes care of us all, there is no unnecessary suffering, he knows what you need

 

[fred_conty]

My question is: Does praying to God change the outcome of anything?

It seems like God doesn’t answer prayers sometimes. For example, no matter how hard someone would pray for a person with cancer, they would still die. What’s the point of praying if bad things are going to happen?

It’s a question i’ve been struggling with. Hopefully someone can give me some insight into this issue. I’ve been lurking here for quite some time, hopefully joining the forums will help me grow in my faith.

Thanks everyone. God Bless.

“My question is: Does praying to God change the outcome of anything?”

One way of looking at this question is to look at our car. If we don’t change the oil or take care of it properly, then it won’t function any longer. God created us but we do have certain problems to overcome and take care of in our life. And prayer is like proper maintenance to our auto. Just don’t pray and I think you will discover why you must pray. The human being has been damaged and it now seems that it is very very easy to do what is evil. So to conteract that, God pulls maintence on us thru our prayers to give us the proper help to continue on our journey to heaven without failing.​

“It seems like God doesn’t answer prayers sometimes. For example, no matter how hard someone would pray for a person with cancer, they would still die. What’s the point of praying if bad things are going to happen?”

This maybe a tougher answer for you to accept especially if it is in regard to someone who is very close, like a mom or dad, wife or husband. And because we are so close to them our feelings for them naturally interfere with sound reasoning and faith at times. The emotions overwhelm the mind. And this is not the time to look into the answer to this question. The best time is when we are more objective in our thinking. At the time of the illness of a close one, we want what we want and no excuses. So it may be antagonistic to answer at the point a person is greiving. But I will say that Mary had to watch her only son Jesus be strung out and up on a cross before her very tearfull eyes. She knows how it feels to see someone close suffer so much. Pray to her to help you in your hour of need.​

“It’s a question i’ve been struggling with. Hopefully someone can give me some insight into this issue. I’ve been lurking here for quite some time, hopefully joining the forums will help me grow in my faith.”

I do hope you will continue to join us. I know you will gain a lot, not only in knowledge and faith, but about yourself as well. And thank you for coming.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[sl59]

I just find it hard to put trust into anyone (or anything, really) after that sort of event happens, and whether it’s even worth trying to “replace” that person. … Therefore, if the person one loved more than anyone else leaves or flips over, and one “replaces” him/her later on with another individual (like so many people do after a failed marriage, or worse, after being widowed), then either 1) they never “truly” loved that person in the first place, because they replaced him/her in the end and therefore must never assume that the love one currently has is the “true” love,

Dear friend,

I am sure that your experience has been very hard. I also feel that when we lose someone (family or friend) that was so very important to us, it leaves a “hole” in our life. We will never be able to replace that person, because each person is unique. There will never be another one like him/her.
But we are not made to love just one person, or to love in just one way. We will meet others, or “rediscover” people who are already present in our life but we did not notice fully before. If you find someone to love, it will be a different person and a different love. This does not put the lie to the love you felt in the past for another person.
If a mother loses a child, and then has others, will she be unable to love them? Those children will be loved in their own right, and they will not be “replacements” of the dead one. And loving these children will not mean that she did not truly love the first one.
I have lost some friends over the years, to death or other circumstances. Every time it left me in pain for a very long time. Then I met other people, completely different, and again the love of friendship blossomed. Every time it was true, because it was love for the specific person, and they all are different.
I hope this helps you on the conceptual side. Right now I am grieving over the loss of a friend of ten years, and sincerely I have no wish to ever have another deep friend and risk to suffer again like this.

 

[HardRockGTR]

But we are not made to love just one person, or to love in just one way. We will meet others, or “rediscover” people who are already present in our life but we did not notice fully before. If you find someone to love, it will be a different person and a different love.

I once thought about this and had to debate with myself (not from a religious perspective) whether this justified polygamy or not, **not that I’d practice it.
**
Still, she messed me up pretty hard and since then I haven’t been able to trust people or reality itself, and I’ve become incredibly cynical as a person, even though sometimes I know it can become unjustified. I used to be the optimistic, philanthropic type, and now I’m more of the opposite, behaving philathropically more out of moral duty and less out of compassion. I know it’s not a good thing, of course, but like some great minds such a Hector Berlioz (although in his case, it was a failed romance), I think I’ve been hit so hard that I can’t risk letting it happen again. Because of this, I am incapable of feeling that close to anyone now (even though I have very good friends and a good family) and the very thought of such closeness often makes me feel nauseous and disdained about it.

This does not put the lie to the love you felt in the past for another person.
If a mother loses a child, and then has others, will she be unable to love them? Those children will be loved in their own right, and they will not be “replacements” of the dead one. And loving these children will not mean that she did not truly love the first one.

It’s not the same, in my opinion. You can have as many children (or friends, or family members, or pets) you want at one time, but that’s not true for a “best” friend or a romantic partner.

I often see people replacing pets virtually right after they die (my cat disappeared this summer, and the last time I went home to visit my parents, there was a new one, even though my parents both often said over the years that they were not going to get any new pets). If a person can love an animal as much as a human friend, then simply getting a new cat is like simply getting a new friend. This would also justify replacing your significant other, and yet, remarriage is seldom possible in Catholicism. As a matter of fact, it may even justify polygamy (perhaps if there are no children involved), since I can be madly in romantic love with two people at once, just like how I can have many friends at once.

One thing I like about the Catholic church is that; that unlike civil marriage (or marriage in many other congregations), you can’t just hire a lawyer and sign some paperwork to get a divorce (apparently; until now I thought all non-annulment dissolution of marriage was forbidden).

Lastly, can you argue a person is a love of yours if you wind up getting over them? So some people live through heartbreak, then eventually get over it. But I feel like they get over it because they no longer feel love for that person. Perhaps I’m wrong. I mean, I had a crush in high school that I now no longer give a single hoot about. Not because I hate her or anything (I don’t), but because I’m indifferent to her existence now, considering I haven’t even talked to her since I graduated nearly four years ago.

I have lost some friends over the years, to death or other circumstances. Every time it left me in pain for a very long time. Then I met other people, completely different, and again the love of friendship blossomed. Every time it was true, because it was love for the specific person, and they all are different.

Again, though, I have a hunch that she wasn’t real in the first place. I feel like I was loving a fake. I might as well love a fictional character. Of course I could be wrong, but I have my reasons for feeling this, and I have my reasons for not. Everything is Manichean about my outlook on life, especially other people. I see a polar duality when I look at people and their actions, and I’ve been philosophizing and contemplating on my friendship with her ever since she flipped, and I still have not a single clue as to why or how this all happened.

I hope this helps you on the conceptual side. Right now I am grieving over the loss of a friend of ten years, and sincerely I have no wish to ever have another deep friend and risk to suffer again like this.

I’m sorry to hear that. Thank you for your post. All discussion helps my pursuit of knowledge. I feel like I’m derailing the thread though, so perhaps there’s a better place to take this discussion if it continues.

The Church ruled that he had not made his case since his brother had died before he married Katherine. Personally, I think he should have tried for an annulment on other grounds, such as not fully consenting due to his age or some other such impediment, but it’s a bit too late to suggest that to him now.

lol, yeah

Before he married her he asked the Pope if he could legitimately marry his brother’s widow. The Pope said that was not an obstacle to marriage. Then later he wanted the Pope to invalidate that marriage on the same grounds the Pope had already said was not an obstacle…

Of course he couldn’t get an annulment for that reason

Wait, so in the Catholic church, you can remarry when you’re widowed? I thought you were still married in a spiritual sense.

And I am aware that in ancient Judaism, you had to marry your brother’s widow if he hadn’t fathered any children, but I feel like that may be irrelevant.

 

[Della]

Wait, so in the Catholic church, you can remarry when you’re widowed? I thought you were still married in a spiritual sense.

And I am aware that in ancient Judaism, you had to marry your brother’s widow if he hadn’t fathered any children, but I feel like that may be irrelevant.

Jesus plainly said that the dead are like the angels in heaven in that they do not marry and are not bound by marriage. So, we are not married forever, as some love songs would have it. That’s romanticism, not Catholicism.

Yes, the Jewish men were to marry their deceased brother’s wife if the brother had produced no heirs, so that his line would go on.

 

[HardRockGTR]

Really?

Well, I learned something today, lol.

 

[Della]

Really?

Well, I learned something today, lol.

Glad to be of service. The thing that attracted me to Catholicism was that it addresses our human concerns/condition with truth and compassion. As Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI wrote:

“Only to the extent that love is grounded in truth can it endure over time, can it transcend the passing moment and be sufficiently solid to sustain a shared journey. If love is not tied to truth, it falls prey to fickle emotions and cannot stand the test of time. True love, on the other hand, unifies all the elements of our person and becomes a new light pointing the way to a great and fulfilled life. Without truth, love is incapable of establishing a firm bond; it cannot liberate our isolated ego or redeem it from the fleeting moment in order to create life and bear fruit.”