Before you became a parent

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I think small children who go through stages of wanting to sleep with parents are demonstrating a form of separation anxiety. Believe it or not, it’s actually a stage of development past the toddler years between the ages 3-5. I didn’t want my son to sleep with us either when he was going through this stage. However, there were many times between 2-4 in the morning where he would come into our bed, and we just did not have the energy to correct him. Some parents have the energy to correct their child night after night after night at this time, while others don’t.

After spending a few nights with him in our bed, hard knees in my backside, sharp toenails on my outer thigh, elbow across my face. I figured out that if I put the bed of our beloved dog in his room, it actually helped his separation anxiety, and his fear of being alone.
 
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stupidisasstupiddoes said:
That’s just a logical fallacy and means you don’t know your subject matter well enough to rebuke an arguement. As it happens, they were making the statement to me uninvited because i said i wouldn’t stand for a child demanding to be in my bed every night, (a child is not the center of the universe).
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You can’t keep the kid from asking to climb into bed every night. Your friends/relatives are probably making the choice between:

a) taking the kid to bed and actually sleeping (maybe with a short wake up or two from feet in the face)

and

b) being woken up every couple hours by a small visitor crying and begging to climb into their bed or insisting on some sort of long, drawn-out repeat bedtime ritual.

It does not surprise me that they’re going for a).

We’ve been blessed with generally excellent sleepers and none of our kids have ever spent the night in our bed, but I understand that that’s sheer good luck on our part. We didn’t do anything to make our kids good sleepers aside from being religious about nap and bed times and never co-sleeping–but a lot of people do the same thing and get much worse results. Getting a bad sleeper or bad sleepers is often just luck of the draw/genetics, and once you draw that bad card, there aren’t a lot of good options.

I suggest reading The Honest Toddler. It’s very funny and educational.

 
I don’t agree with the a / b choice you presented. I’ve seen the false dichotomy approach used on junk food - “i have to give my child junk food otherwise they will starve”. They won’t.

But thanks for the book recommendation, that looks good so i’ll check that out.
 
Family of musicians here.

Learning to play a musical instrument (besides ending up with a skill that can bring joy and pay the bills if needed, either teaching it or performing with it) teaches perseverance.

Our son wrote a paper about the difference between the video game Guitar Hero and learning to play the guitar. A kid can look up cheats and master Guitar Hero in a few hours. Learning to actually play the guitar requires time and dedication. You have to push past the pain, build muscles and callouses, learn to tune your instrument, to repair your instrument, learn to keep trying after failing, learn that sometimes you just fail have to change your approach, and build skill upon skill.

Very few things today teach those lessons. There are no more tryouts for sports, everyone gets to be on a team, everyone gets a trophy, and we end up with adults who are ill prepared for life in the real world.
 
It’s correct to say that music will re-wire the brain in ways that are unique. Certain jobs really benefit from this (e.g. air traffic controller). So i do recognise the potential benefit, personally i care more about sport than music so it’s more about the opportunity cost. But certainly if the kid wanted to learn music then i’m not against it.
 
stupidisasstupiddoes said:
i care more about sport than music
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Just weigh these two:

Everybody gets to play, if your parents are willing to pay bigger fees you get to play on the elite/travel team. Everybody gets awards.

Those who play with skill are selected for the elite/travel ensembles. If you are not at that level, you are encouraged to keep trying, to improve and to try again.

It is how you spend all of your free time during childhood and teen years. VERY few will continue in college. Once you are an adult, participation is a hobby.

Still spend your free time as a child and teen, if you continue at that point you will undoubtedly be at the skill level to earn a college scholarship. Once you are an adult, it is a hobby and also something that can pay the rent if you need.
 
TheLittleLady said:
i care more about sport than music

Just weigh these two:

Everybody gets to play, if your parents are willing to pay bigger fees you get to play on the elite/travel team. Everybody gets awards.

Those who play with skill are selected for the elite/travel ensembles. If you are not at that level, you are encouraged to keep trying, to improve and to try again.

It is how you spend all of your free time during childhood and teen years. VERY few will continue in college. Once you are an adult, participation is a hobby.

Still spend your free time as a child and teen, if you continue at that point you will undoubtedly be at the skill level to earn a college scholarship. Once you are an adult, it is a hobby and also something that can pay the rent if you need.
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Hard to know if you are talking about sport or music there! the statements seem to apply to both for >90%of the population!
 
stupidisasstupiddoes said:
I don’t agree with the a / b choice you presented. I’ve seen the false dichotomy approach used on junk food - “i have to give my child junk food otherwise they will starve”. They won’t.
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Typical children might not starve. But ask any parent of a child with a feeding disorder (I am one) and they will tell you that a child can, in fact, refuse food long enough to compromise their health. My son’s therapist has recommended that we feed my son whatever he will eat, junk food included.

In general, it is just best not to assume that you will never do x,y, or z, or judge others’ parenting (even when you are a parent) because you really have no idea what circumstances they are under. You can talk about everything under the sun before you have a child and think you have it all covered, but really there is nothing more humbling than walking in the door with a new baby and trying to figure it all out as you go.
 
Ok i wasn’t trying to include actual disorders in that statement, they are different things anyway. A child that is holding out for junk food is not the same as a child being given junk food because they otherwise wouldn’t eat.
The fact is that their child wouldn’t know such junk existed to hold out for, if they didn’t keep it in the house and eat it themselves.
 
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This is true, I have a close friend whose daughter is very low weight, Like between the 10th-20th percentile or thereabouts for her age. Normal in other areas of development, but for her weight. The only thing this child would eat is breaded chicken strips. The pediatrician told my friend…that if that’s all she is going to eat then to feed that to her. Sometimes, the goal is just to have the child eat whatever they want for the calories and to gain weight.
 
I think that parents need to be cognizant of how much their children weigh and where they are at on their developmental chart. if you have a hard policy that you will withhold food from your child until they eat what you say and theyll just eat it when they’re hungry enough, the child may actually start losing weight. If you have a 20 pound 2 year old, who loses 2 pounds from not eating and being an active 2 year old. They’ve just lost 10% of their body weight. Versus, a 200 pound adult who looses 2 pounds, they’ve only just lost 1% of their weight, which is really not that big of a deal compared to a 2 year old.
 
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stupidisasstupiddoes said:
I don’t agree with the a / b choice you presented. I’ve seen the false dichotomy approach used on junk food - “i have to give my child junk food otherwise they will starve”. They won’t.

But thanks for the book recommendation, that looks good so i’ll check that out.
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I think sleep and food are pretty distinct. You’re right that the a/b choice doesn’t apply to food, because there are almost literally infinite varieties and combinations of food to offer a child, and it’s very likely that they will like something reasonable (like slices of apple with peanut butter or slice of pizza or Cheerios with milk or blueberries and yogurt or hot dog and applesauce).

However, with sleep, the choices really are that stark. When you have a child that is having persistent sleep problems, it really is going to be that a/b choice–either keep on fighting and suffering night after night, or give up and sleep with feet in your face. If some sort of sleep training works quickly, that’s great, but a couple is unlikely to keep fighting the sleep training fight week after week, month after month if there’s no visible progress and if the sleep training itself seems worse than accommodating the child.
 
Word.

Our first was a GREAT sleeper. Through the night by 6 months (and I mean 7:30 pm until 7 am through the night) with a 2 to 3 hour nap in the middle. We had a routine and clearly we were just the best at parenting.

Our second… oh my… we didn’t get a full night until she was 18 months old. We slept holding her in a chair for the 1st year. We had the same routines, the doctors couldn’t find anything wrong, but the second you put her on her back - screaming. We tried dozens of options and finally just gave into every other night one of us was on Daughter Duty so at least every other night you’d get a full nights sleep.

It was a long 18 months.
 
Ours was a great sleeper, but, that was back when it was not considered child abuse to let your child sleep on his stomach.
 
Very wealthy people often seek nannies who happen to not have children. That’s because you don’t have to have children to know how to deal with children. Many school teachers haven’t got children and they can keep 20-30 children quietly working at their desks. Success has more to do with whether a parent has a teacher personality, and lots of patience.

To the original poster, I suggest watching many youtube videos like Nanny 911 and Supernanny together with your wife. It will give you many points to discuss.

There should be established sleep routines. Of course, sometimes a kid can’t sleep, but the routine should be established. It can change, but you need a routine.

I don’t think kids should sleep in their parents’ bed. Once they get into this habit, it’s too hard to break. When they are babies, it isn’t safe. People have rolled over on their babies. And later, it’s just indulging their irrational fears. Yes, you feel separate from me. That’s because you are separate from me. We’re not joined at the hip, you can joke. There’s a monster under your bed? Here is an apple you can put under the bed for the monster.

With meals, I have many suggestions. But as the husband, you really have to show you love your wife’s food. And vice versa when the husband cooks. Ritual and routine are very important. Eating dinner at the exact same time. Literally. The bell should ring like a gong in the house. Food can be so successfully organized that dinner is over in ten minutes. Ask people from earlier generations for help. I’d stay away from attachment parenting.
 
Lara,

I’ve lived in an area with a lot of nannies (NW DC) for upper middle class/upper upper middle class families, and while there are childless au pairs, the bulk of nannies were 50ish women from overseas who had presumably raised their children. I got to see some very patient, very affectionate, very crafty Filipina nannies in action at the park. It’s true that there are good childless teachers (especially in the older grades), but I would say that the typical good preschool/kindergarten teacher is a 40ish/50ish lady who has children of her own and has had many years of experience working with 3-5 year olds. I’ve also been very impressed with my grandma (even in her late 80s) dealing with Baby Girl. Husband was also telling me a charming story yesterday of a grandma at the children’s museum and how strategic she was. Baby Girl and her granddaughter were playing together, and the grandma engineered it so that both of the girls left the museum at the same time so that neither felt saaaad about leaving while somebody else was playing, and she also did a nice bit of work where she told her granddaughter to hold her hand so that grandma doesn’t slip outside. That level of skill is generally found in ladies whose children are all grown up and who are getting to be grandma age. I’m not saying that all older women are good with children, but that the people who are best with tiny children are highly experienced.

Paradoxically, I think having a lot of experience is actually most crucial with kids 0-5. Beyond that, you’re dealing with a basically rational human being, but before that, it’s crucial to have a lot of game plans and strategy. Also, more experienced older women often have a good sense of priorities and picking their battles.

There are some safety concerns with babies cosleeping. But, on the other hand, mom and dad are going to be driving the next day, and there are a lot of safety concerns if mom and dad are not sleeping well (a sleep deficit mimics the effects of drunk driving) and dad might literally be operating heavy equipment. The falling issues at least can be eliminated by just having a mattress flat on the floor (suffocation with infants is trickier).

Lara, have you actually had long term responsibility for getting a small child to sleep? I have, and while we’ve never coslept, I don’t think it’s nearly as easy to prevent that as you think it is.

I agree about food–although in the early years, mom and dad may eat dinner a lot more if they eat without the baby (either before or after). Doing that is not the end of the world. As I’ve said before, there are many second chances in parenting.
 
stupidisasstupiddoes said:
It’s correct to say that music will re-wire the brain in ways that are unique. Certain jobs really benefit from this (e.g. air traffic controller). So i do recognise the potential benefit, personally i care more about sport than music so it’s more about the opportunity cost. But certainly if the kid wanted to learn music then i’m not against it.
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That’s the most important thing, I would say. Being open to it.

I am not all that athletic. If I had had the choice, I would have played soccer or tennis, but my rural school didn’t offer those options. So I participated in choir, drama, and musical.
Next brother wasn’t athletic either, nor particularly musical. He did very well in drama and speech.
Third brother was athletic and not musical. He excelled at football (but did not continue in college or after). He also played baseball and basketball at various other points in his childhood/adolescence.
My last brother is still in high school. He seems to be a mix - he plays the tuba and sings, but also plays football and basketball.

My parents never pressed any of us to do things we didn’t want to do. They made us participate in school sports and music in junior high so that we would get a taste and try it to see if we liked it or had a talent for it, but in high school, we were free to choose what we liked and excelled at. (I was glad, because I hated playing volleyball and basketball) 😛

Also, I play the piano and I am not an air traffic controller. But perhaps learning to read music helped me learn Spanish more easily than my peers, to the point of being fluent when I got older. Not proven, but I consider it a theory. 🤷‍♀️
 
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Just listen to your children.
Both of my sisters were given piano lessons and did not enjoy them. I, on the other hand, was not offered lessons, but when the opportunity came up form a new sister in the convent, I JUMPED at the chance. I knew from early on, that I would be a musician. I insisted on lessons. I have never gone a day without playing and have nearly always made a living from it.
If your child wants lessons, do it. They learn poise, courage, and how t present themselves well from it. It’s also good for honing your memorization skills.

Also, and this is very important:

Don’t be surprised if your best-laid plans fall apart completely. The child isn’t even here yet. At some point everyone says “my child will never” and then have had to eat our words.
Relax. And don’t be rigid. Firm, but not rigid.
 
Starlady,

I like your parents’ method. I have been pretty tough on occasion with insisting that kids get basic competency in an area (like swimming) and with insisting that kids try things, but I wouldn’t insist that they keep going if it wasn’t a basic life skill and was something they had no affinity/talent for.

With music for our oldest, we had an initial break-in period and some tweaking had to happen. Big Girl started with acoustic guitar and had trouble with finger pain, but her teacher (brilliant guy!) was able to give her some tips that allowed her to keep practicing without hurting herself. Also, we were initially having trouble with her saying she didn’t know what to do for practice at home. We were able to get over that initially by me booking her more lessons per week (this was the summer, so we had the flexibility and funds to do it), until she achieved some momentum (at that point, she liked her lessons, but hated practicing). Then she wanted to switch to ukulele and even bought a ukulele with her own money, and started playing it constantly and barely touched the guitar. We wound up switching over to ukulele lessons. I would never in a million years have expected to be paying for ukulele lessons, but here we are. She’s been doing music lessons for 3.5 years now, and I’m open to paying for more lessons right on through college if she wants to.

We still have little blips. We’ve had the usual fights over practicing, but have settled down to a routine of us expecting 4 15-minute practices a week. She often does more, but that’s our baseline, and I actually often tell her that a half-practice would be fine and that the important thing is practicing at least 4 days a week, but when she starts practicing, she almost always does a full practice. Her current teacher recently had heart trouble and she didn’t click with the new teacher and was talking about quitting entirely, but fortunately her teacher came back. Music is a huge part of her life now–she does a class at school, runs a club at school, has started performing in a community group and occasionally gives lessons to her brother and sister. Basically, it’s a whole new world. And the funny thing is that her dad is tone deaf and I avoided music energetically when I was in school (although we each have a musical sibling).

I’ve also given her a lot of latitude with regard to what kind of music she plays. Initially, she was just working out of the Hal Leonard textbooks, but as she’s gone on, she has more and more preferences with regard to what kind of music she plays. I sometimes give her a little nudge by buying particular books, but she has very strong preferences. Some books she might work with for a whole year, sweating over every single piece, while others she doesn’t have the time of day for.

I hope she’ll continue with her music, but even if she quits tomorrow, she’s already gotten a lot out of it, and she’s done so much work that if she ever wanted to pick it up again, she’d be able to.

tldr–It can be an uphill battle starting a new activity, but when the child has a genuine affinity for it, their interest and talent will eventually kick in.
 
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