Beginning with luther?

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Erick_Ybarra said:
If we are open for the later development of the Church in terms of elements that no Christian was aware of in the first 30 years of the Church, that even the apostles were not aware of, we are opening ourselves up to something that does not rest on apostolic authority.
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Huh?

Not the right assessment there.
 
 
The church has been called out of darkness into the marvelous light of God, the church is saved from the power of Satan and the grip of sin and death, the church is a light on a hilltop beaming with good works.

If I see a protestant church zealously denying their lives for Jesus, loving each other in deed events if it means death, embracing the sick and sinful people of the world, with the good works of christ Jesus, I have seen the church.

When I see a catholic church where it resembles a waiting room at a doctors office and no one knows each other and the clergy believe Muslims are heaven bound and that we just need to be nice to people, and everyone has a half hearted servicefor Jesus which rises to heaven as a stench in his nostrils, where there us 11 minute homilies on being kind, where after churcheveryone leaves the building ad if we all came to hear a lecture from the principle of our school, dying to get out… I don’t see christ there.

Jesus gives the kingdom to those who bear the fruits of it, and ittakes a holy discernment to see this
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
The church has been called out of darkness into the marvelous light of God, the church is saved from the power of Satan and the grip of sin and death, the church is a light on a hilltop beaming with good works.

If I see a protestant church zealously denying their lives for Jesus, loving each other in deed events if it means death, embracing the sick and sinful people of the world, with the good works of christ Jesus, I have seen the church.
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Now with the reality that the Church is a global Church – are you going to find all sorts of Christians and even Priests etc? Sure. Experience will vary from place to place and person to person. We are not church of say 120 members …but of very many more. So within those members one will find great Saints, Theologians, Sinners who struggle, Priests who are quite gifted and those who are not…etc…the very fervent and those who are need of a good dose of the new evangelization…
 
And the Mass is always the Mass – Jesus the Lord is there!

Even if in a particular place the homily is not so good…
 
Painting Protestant communities “in some perfect light” does not reflect the truth…Nor does the portrayal of Catholic Churches really reflect reality – and even legit criticisms of this person or that or this place or that does not reflect some universal reality.

I could go to Protestant communities and gather up all sorts of problems and survey ways of living contrary to the Gospel…from everything from various serious kinds of sin…of not recognizing sin for sin …the seriousness of abortion … divorce and remarriage …the disputes that lead to further and further splits among them…with part going off to start a new community…terrible sermons, fundamentalism, etc etc etc

I do not mention this for us to belittle Protestants… I have great love for my fellow Christians and have been indeed as the Church says --edified by them.

Both prior to and after my becoming Catholic.

There are sinners and problems among Protestants and yes sinners and problems among Catholics.

“The Church has been called out of darkness into the marvelous light of God” --yes indeed
 
Christs church is holy and pure. He died to make it so. A church failing in this needs much repentance. A church that lacks these and feels no desperate need to repent will be judged by protestants who bore the fruits of the kingdom
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
The church has been called out of darkness into the marvelous light of God, the church is saved from the power of Satan and the grip of sin and death, the church is a light on a hilltop beaming with good works.

If I see a protestant church zealously denying their lives for Jesus, loving each other in deed events if it means death, embracing the sick and sinful people of the world, with the good works of christ Jesus, I have seen the church.

When I see a catholic church where it resembles a waiting room at a doctors office and no one knows each other and the clergy believe Muslims are heaven bound and that we just need to be nice to people, and everyone has a half hearted servicefor Jesus which rises to heaven as a stench in his nostrils, where there us 11 minute homilies on being kind, where after churcheveryone leaves the building ad if we all came to hear a lecture from the principle of our school, dying to get out… I don’t see christ there.

Jesus gives the kingdom to those who bear the fruits of it, and ittakes a holy discernment to see this
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I have no idea what you are saying here. You are going deeper and deeper in to theology. You cannot simply do theology Erick without theological axioms.

To do Theological axioms, you have to be sure that what you are accepting is indeed by God.

You have done neither. It seems that you have simply given arbitrary assent to a book i.e. the Bible. Such an arbitrary methodology is unworthy of assent by anyone including you. So I suggest, that if you honestly want to get somewhere with your search, to start from scratch and use REASON.
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
Christs church is holy and pure. He died to make it so. A church failing in this needs much repentance. A church that lacks these and feels no desperate need to repent will be judged by protestants who bore the fruits of the kingdom
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More and more theology friend. To do theology, you need to know Theological axioms that are justified and worthy of assent. You have none other than what you have solely determined by yourself as probably good enough.

You cannot argue from such a foundation.
 
REASON?

Lets hear it. If it is anything different than the reason used by Timothy’s mother in raising him off the old testament, I’m dying to hear
 
dichotomy_Ybarra said:
A church that lacks these and feels no desperate need to repent will be judged by protestants who bore the fruits of the kingdom
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… I think one really needs again to reevaluate ones vision of Protestant communities – members of them also sin etc as I discussed…and can be in need of lots of repentance…

Again your setting up a false dichotomy.
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
REASON?

Lets hear it. If it is anything different than the reason used by Timothy’s mother in raising him off the old testament, I’m dying to hear
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Haha YES! This is what you don’t seem to understand.

For the Jewish people, it was about a truth they knew, that was passed down through the generations. They gave assent to those who occupied the Church of Moses.

So reason for Jews would be as follows
  1. God made it clear to us in our trip back from Egypt that he is speaking through Moses
  2. We listen to Moses and the teachings handed down through him
  3. We also listen to the Levitical Priests
  4. We also listen to the ones occupying the seat of Moses
That is 100% reasonable.

You on the other hand went from God or Jesus and straight to a book called the Bible 🤷
 
IF I may ask Erick, is it not true that you are of the camp of Fideism?

So you probably believe in some blind assent to a book or someone that feels attractive to you regardless of reason? correct?

Therefore, your entire religion is simply about this book you blindly chose to give assent to? Right?

Now if it doesn’t sound ridiculous to you already, I am telling you that it is unreasonable. Even more unreasonable is you coming on this forum and asking people to reason with you regarding theological truths that are founded on no reason.

So you have a fundamental error in your thinking regarding religion. That needs to be corrected first. The issue here is not going to be solved by discussing petrine dynasty or any theological issue.

The heart of the matter is that you have an error in the foundation.
 
To answer the question one must be theological. How did Adam know God? How did Enoch know God? How did Abraham know God. It is revelatory theology. I believe in Jesus because of the holy spirit. Opening my eyes through the gospel.

Paul condemned even himself if he preached a different gospel, this is how much primacy the gospel itself has over human beings.
 
Eufrosnia said:
IF I may ask Erick, is it not true that you are of the camp of Fideism?

So you probably believe in some blind assent to a book or someone that feels attractive to you regardless of reason? correct?

Therefore, you entire religion is simply about this book you blind chose to give assent to? Right?

Now if it doesn’t sound ridiculous to you already, I am telling you that it is unreasonable. Even more unreasonable is you coming on this forum and asking people to reason with you regarding theological truths that are founded on no reason.

So you have a fundamental error in your thinking regarding religion. That needs to be corrected first.
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So what us your non-theological reason for believing in Jesus?

Remember God makes foolish the wisdom of the wise, he has a Jack for that. Let’s hear your argument. You’ve spent much time exposing my unreasonableness. Lets hear your reason.
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
To answer the question one must be theological. How did Adam know God? How did Enoch know God? How did Abraham know God. It is revelatory theology. I believe in Jesus because of the holy spirit. Opening my eyes through the gospel.

Paul condemned even himself if he preached a different gospel, this is how much primacy the gospel itself has over human beings.
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No you cannot be Theological to answer if something is from God. That is wrong.

If I wrote a book, and said its Gospel, it doesn’t make it true. Why? Not because my Theology does not add up!!

So Erick, you have abandoned reason and chosen arbitrary assent. That is what the Muslim does and that is what the Buddhist does. Christians are NOT suppossed to do that.

You cannot even know of such a being called the Holy Spirit if you didn’t already believe the Bible. So you are going in circles anyway.

What happened with you is that you arbitrarily gave assent to the Bible. Then you grasped some theological truths from it like God, Jesus is Son, Holy Spirit etc. And NOW, you are justifying your own arrival at the Bible using these concepts. That is not proper logic.

The verification of Divine revelation MUST be grounded outside Theology. Because Theology is what you DO once you figure out what is Divine Revelation. Not BEFORE.
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
So what us your non-theological reason for believing in Jesus?
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His death and Resurrection i.e. HISTORICAL fact.
Erick_Ybarra said:
Remember God makes foolish the wisdom of the wise, he has a Jack for that. Let’s hear your argument. You’ve spent much time exposing my unreasonableness. Lets hear your reason.
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God has no issue against using REASON to verify that something is indeed from God. In fact, lots of people got “jacked” for doing things assuming it was from God when it was not.

In fact, it is a meaningless statement to ARGUE using reason to not be reasonable. Isn’t it?
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
Christs church is holy and pure. He died to make it so. A church failing in this needs much repentance.
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Yes the Church is Holy!

But at the same time she embraces sinners.

"While Christ, holy, innocent and undefiled knew nothing of sin…

… the Church, embracing in its bosom sinners, at the same time holy and always in need of being purified, always follows the way of penance and renewal." -Lumen Gentium
 
Yes, his death and resurrection is the historical foundation of our faith. No disputes. Where have I disputed this?

Just because I believe that the present day catholic goes against some parts of the NT, does this mean that I totally use sola scriptura?
 
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