Beginning with luther?

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Yes, his death and resurrection is the historical foundation of our faith. No disputes. Where have I disputed this?

Just because I believe that the present day catholic goes against some parts of the NT, does this mean that I totally use sola scriptura?
Well that is the FOUNDATION of the faith. But you cannot just go arbitrarily from there to NT or OT or the Bible.

There must be some logical sequence of steps. The only possible logical sequence requires you to give assent to the Apostles and Apostolic Successors. So for you to then argue against it afterward is … well illogical.

So no, its not whether you practice Sola Scriptura. IF you want to accept the Bible, then you cannot do so without accepting authority of Apostles and Apostolic Successors. Hence you would need to have already given assent.

But you have made a jump out of nowhere. THAT IS THE ERROR.
 
Then why did the apostles fool us into viewing the Old Testament as authoratative by quoting it to validate their teaching, instead of insisting on their own idea?
 
Then why did the apostles fool us into viewing the Old Testament as authoratative by quoting it to validate their teaching, instead of insisting on their own idea?
Actually, you are getting ahead of yourself here. You just need to admit one simple thing. That is what you have to listen to the Apostles and Apostolic Authority to get anywhere with respect to learning about Christ.

Do you see that? If not, all this other stuff is just useless.
 
Then why did the apostles fool us into viewing the Old Testament as authoratative by quoting it to validate their teaching, instead of insisting on their own idea?
They quoted it for it is Sacred Scripture. As we do today.

(Though it is good to note that the canon was not actually settled at this time)
 
Actually, Paul actually saw Jesus…youbhave never seen Jesus. And if you read acts 9 you will see Paul preaching from the scriptures, teaching that Jesus is the christ.

I’m sorry, your too smart for Paul. You would tell him to be your student?
 
Actually, Paul actually saw Jesus…youbhave never seen Jesus. And if you read acts 9 you will see Paul preaching from the scriptures, teaching that Jesus is the christ.
Sure Erick but what part of “you can’t believe the Bible yet” don’t you get? You are drawing Theological conclusions from the Bible when you cannot do so. All you can do is figure out who to turn to at best.
I’m sorry, your too smart for Paul. You would tell him to be your student?
Paul had a direct experience of the risen Christ and claims he was handed down a revelation. NOW, if YOU were handed down some revelation, alright, you can give assent to that yourself. But I am pretty sure you weren’t which is why you are going with the Bible.

Right?

Also worth noting is that even Paul went to the Apostles to make sure he wasn’t “running a race in vain”

So even there you get to see the example of Apostolic Succession and Authority.

All this also bizarre Erick because you are advocating to stop using reason so using reason. 🤷
 
Explain how I am not using reason???

If a random piece of paper says ‘‘God is love’’ and we believe it and argue that the statement is true, does that mean we are elevating the physical paper and enacryption above reason and original cause? Absolutely not! We know this to be true because God has revealed himself in this way.

But if God himself wrote it on the paper, we can argue from it because of the origin of cause.

The apostles understood the voice of the prophets to echo the saving mission of christ, therefore this was one of their foundations. Plus they had the authority of christ, but such authority does not condone a blank check to teach whatever they want. They are restricted, and part of that restriction was Torah and prophets
 
Explain how I am not using reason???
Because there are no premises or rules of inference that you have shown to go from “Death and Resurrection of Jesus” to “Bible is the word of God”.
If a random piece of paper says ‘‘God is love’’ and we believe it and argue that the statement is true, does that mean we are elevating the physical paper and enacryption above reason and original cause? Absolutely not! We know this to be true because God has revealed himself in this way.
That is absolutely illogical. Unless you know that the piece of paper indeed is from God, it is illogical to assent to it as word of God.
But if God himself wrote it on the paper, we can argue from it because of the origin of cause.
Sure, but you need to KNOW that God wrote in on the paper and not someone else just for fun/power/domination/money/etc.
The apostles understood the voice of the prophets to echo the saving mission of christ, therefore this was one of their foundations. Plus they had the authority of christ, but such authority does not condone a blank check to teach whatever they want. They are restricted, and part of that restriction was Torah and prophets
The Apostles had authority. That is all you can tell. The rest is Theological exposition BY YOU!!!

So you either accept what you can actually arrive at through reason or you are left with nothing.

What you do is you want to accept what you know from Reason as well as all your Theological baggage that you just came to know yourself. That is WRONG. That is some Pseudo Christianity and is illogical.
 
The authority of the 12 apostles has continued in our world through Christian clergy all over the world.

What you are doing is trying to use philosophy and basic epistlmology to argue that no foundation exists outside that which has no inference.

Well I’m really sorry, but the Jews did not think like you. For instance, the story if the rich man and lazuras the poor man, the rich man wants to go back in time and provide that reasonable epistemological inference by which they will know and be motivated to repent. And Abraham says that since they hold the law and the prophets they have enough inference. You speak like the rich man, full of worldy wisdom, but no spiritual discernment.

Also, when Jesus confronts the Pharisees and scribes, he does not take the authority of the seat of moses for granted but checks them with the scripture. Not as a way to throw them out of authority but letting them know who is higher than them in authority by an inference of ‘‘what was written’’. Jesus had a very high view of the scriptures and would not have thought like you do.

The fact that there is a present day ministry wherein the gospel of a messiah dying and rising again is itself an outside extrabiblical inference from which one can gain assurance of the truth, but it is not in any way a more sure testimony than sacred scripture.

As you know I have not advocated a solar scripturist point of view, but I’m trying to show you that there were parameters in which it is clearly evident that the apostles themselves worked with that really expose your reasoning as some natural epistemological philosophy used by the mind of a scientist which does not really fit into the ancient mentality of the Jews, Jesus being one example
 
Because there are no premises or rules of inference that you have shown to go from “Death and Resurrection of Jesus” to “Bible is the word of God”.

That is absolutely illogical. Unless you know that the piece of paper indeed is from God, it is illogical to assent to it as word of God.

Sure, but you need to KNOW that God wrote in on the paper and not someone else just for fun/power/domination/money/etc.

The Apostles had authority. That is all you can tell. The rest is Theological exposition BY YOU!!!

So you either accept what you can actually arrive at through reason or you are left with nothing.

What you do is you want to accept what you know from Reason as well as all your Theological baggage that you just came to know yourself. That is WRONG. That is some Pseudo Christianity and is illogical.
You misunderstand what I was saying.

Let’s turn the tables around on you. What reason do you have to believe the resurrection of Jesus? I am assuming you would say the authority of the apostles??? If so, how do you know the apostles have authority? Because your parents told you? Because what?
 
The authority of the 12 apostles has continued in our world through Christian clergy all over the world.
Such would not be a correct understanding.

(With all due respect and love to our fellow Christians of Protestant background)

(I have not been “in” the present discussion…but I just glanced at it and note such as I pass by the thread)
 
The church has been called out of darkness into the marvelous light of God, the church is saved from the power of Satan and the grip of sin and death, the church is a light on a hilltop beaming with good works.

If I see a protestant church zealously denying their lives for Jesus, loving each other in deed events if it means death, embracing the sick and sinful people of the world, with the good works of christ Jesus, I have seen the church.
I’ve seen the same among Jehovah Witnesses, and Buddhist, so does holiness equal truth?
When I see a catholic church where it resembles a waiting room at a doctors office and no one knows each other and the clergy believe Muslims are heaven bound and that we just need to be nice to people, and everyone has a half hearted servicefor Jesus which rises to heaven as a stench in his nostrils, where there us 11 minute homilies on being kind, where after churcheveryone leaves the building ad if we all came to hear a lecture from the principle of our school, dying to get out… I don’t see christ there.
Judgmental people with planks in their eye, tend to only focus the negative!
Jesus gives the kingdom to those who bear the fruits of it, and ittakes a holy discernment to see this
Again Buddhist, and JW’s bear fruit, so does bearing fruit equal truth?
 
No, at least they are doing something. I think the Jehovah witnesses are lost and condemned because of their rejection of the divinity of Christ.

Just read the Early Church Fathers, who were Catholic, and what their view on sin and church discipline and repentance were, you would not attend any church back then if you cannot stand being examined by Bishops and others who are trying to keep the body of Christ pure from sin.
 
Erick,

Go and find a sinless “church” then!

If you feel that the morality of the people outweigh truth, then find a christian community full of righteous people!

I find it odd that you would focus so much on the want of excommunication, when you said you were cast out of your Christian community for unrepentant sin, which devastated you!

Perhaps our Lord was trying to show you that He is long-suffering, merciful, desires that none should perish, but be saved, come to repentance, and to the knowledge of the** truth!**
 
Oh no, not at all. I am no ones judge.

However, there is a doctrine for Christian judgement inside the Church (1 Corinthians 5).

Anyone who is a so-called “Brother” and has committed fornication, adultery, blasphemy, drunkeness, etc,etc is to be brought into the arena of discipline.

Jesus taught this (Matthew 18). If someone is evil in the midst of the people of God, they are to be warned with the fear of God, urged to repent, and overwhelmed with the promise of forgiveness and peace through repentance…

IF they do not heed this within three steps, where it reaches the level of the Church authority, then they are bound in their sin, and are excommunicated.

Paul commanded the Corinthians to publicly excommunicate, YES IN FRONT OF THE WHOLE CONGREGATION, the man who was in fornication.

Paul taught that the life of the church itself depended on it’s purity. If there is evil in the midst, the church will be defiled.

There is not one Roman Catholic Church where I have ever seen anyone disciplined for their sin. My family, for one, are roman catholics and they all have lifestyles that are in the commission of great sin. Yet the priest is a “loving” man and does not get involved with their lives. He is not a shepherd of Christ.
Erick,

Also remember that Jesus stated that it wasn’t their job to sift the Wheat from the weeds but rather God’s job.

God Bless
 
Read the context. That’s the angels and the world not pastors and the church
 
Excommunication has many forms other than a Bishop, publicly excommunicating a laymen.

One of which is self-excommunication!

What do you know about Excommunication, other than your own past Pseudo-excommunication from a non-church if there be such a word?

Why not start with the Excommunication on Schism?

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2H.HTM

newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm

Not all excommunications are publicly known. For example, I once assisted in an investigation of a priest who desecrated the Blessed Sacrament in the privacy of his rectory. The priest being investigated had automatically incurred an excommunication; however, it took years before anyone knew about it because he had carried out the action in secret. Until the offense came to the bishop’s attention several years later, only the priest knew of his excommunication.

An excommunication may be made public in one of two ways.** If the excommunication is ferendae sententiae, it is imposed by an ecclesiastical judge. Latae sententiae (automatic) excommunications, on the other hand, are made public when a competent Church superior declares them.** For example, the Holy See publicly declared Archbishop Lefebvre excommunicated within days of his consecrating bishops without a papal mandate.

Here are some links defining Excommunication and Censure

Scroll down to Canon 1311 and onward!

BOOK VI. SANCTIONS IN THE CHURCH LIBER VI. DE SANCTIONIBUS IN ECCLESIA
PART I. DELICTS AND PENALTIES IN GENERAL

Good place to start

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P4X.HTM

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P4X.HTM

Why do you worry about what The One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Church, does in practice, if you are not an active participant in her?
 
More and more theology friend. To do theology, you need to know Theological axioms that are justified and worthy of assent. You have none other than what you have solely determined by yourself as probably good enough.

You cannot argue from such a foundation.
This is very well said. I hope Erick is not offended but I have read most of his threads. He is a very sharp guy…but Erick

your foundations appear to be shaky. You have written posts in answers to my questions that you are not sure if OSAS is true but sometimes you argue as if you believe it then you deny that you believe it. Sometimes you argue for faith alone vehemently but then you state that works are salvific.

lastly your belief that righteousness is a legal declaration BUT that it is neither infused NOR imputed is not held by either the Catholic, Orthodox or historical protestant churches. It appears to be some new innovation similar to NT Wright’s theological perspectives. But even if you were consistent with any of these items, you have stated that your biggest problem with Catholics is the way they behave…

but I must say I really admire your intensity in the way you approach things. and I certainly am impressed by your tenacity.
 
The bible, at the very least, contains documents which speak the truth concerning our faith in Jesus Christ, the gospel of God. It is abbreviated, yes we must admit. We do not have the resources to understand everything 100% as the original authors and recipients, but as historians, we can do our very best.

Christ did not commission of set script of literature for the authority of the Church just before ascending into heaven. However, you will notice that when the disciples met the risen Jesus, he was quite insistent that the events which had occurred were foretold in the Law of Moses and the Prophets. In fact, when the disciples doubted, instead of settling with the evidence of his physical body being alive again, dived right into the authoritative word of the Old Testament to bring to light the validity of such events.

Not only did Jesus say that his death, burial, and resurrection were already foretold in the infallible word of God in the Old Testament, but also his own words throughout his teaching ministry were foretold. And not only did the Old Testament foretell the coming suffering of the Messiah and the exalting glories that would follow, but that the actual dispensation of grace (Church-New Israel) of “preaching repentance for the remission of sins in His name” (Luke 24) was foretold. Therefore, you already have a worked base of looking into the Scriptures for not only the events of Jesus’ redemptive death and resurrection, but the ages that would follow in the form of “preaching the remission of sins”.

Moreover, the apostles were insistent, just as the Lord Jesus, that their doctrine is not from men, but from God, and it was not simply a Petrine dynastic structure that was enforced and assumed submission, no, no, no, the apostles themselves were equipped with miraculous signs and wonders, in conjunction with the evidence of the empty tomb, in conjunction with the Scriptures themselves. Why do we wonder that the first sermon of the Apostle Peter is not a claim to enthronment or some steward role under Christ the king, but that the Scripture has foretold the events that were happening.

Therefore, right from the very inception of the Church, you have many protestant elements going on. The Scriptures are prominent in the apostolic theology and doctrine (Acts 2). Hereafter, we read the Apostle Phillip and Paul, barnabas, and Silas, not excluding Apollos, defending their doctrine from the Law of Moses and the Prophets.

Therefore, the apostles themselves lived under the authority of the Law of Moses and the Prophets.

Yes, people needed someone to explain the old testament (see the Eunech in Acts 8), but others (Bereans) were themselves happy to find it themselves. This shows that it is not simply left to one man or group to be the final arbiters on what verses mean, but that in conjunction with this is the free available intellect of the human being to engage in the literature of the Old Testament to validate the apostolic claims. Surely, how can someone argue against this very principle?

Right through and through until the end of Luke’s account, Paul is holding up the Law of Moses and the Prophets to testify of Jesus and the Kingdom of God.

Therefore, it is theoretically possible for us to have the right doctrine of our era of grace from simply the Old Testament. This is something Paul was aware of, having told Timothy that the Old Testament was useful in everything pertaining to life and salvation. Such statements are extremely weakening to the additions which were to come some 1000 years later concerning the divine doctrines of Mary, the Lord’s mother, which no one was concerned with in Jerusalem at the Church’s inception.
are you arguing for Sola Scriptura??? I only ask because you have said in other posts and threads that you do not believe in Sola scripura
 
What foundation is shaky?

My foundation is that there is a standard for truth out there. Whatever it is, it cannot contradict scripture.

Now one will ask, but who are you to interpret scripture? Look at how many interpretations there are out there with each trying to read it for his own meaning, etc,etc

Do not be deceived, just because there are a variety of interpretations does not mean that we need to rely on one interpretation as a way to avoid the variety, without looking at the validity of that one interpretation. If you want the peace and relaxation, then just listen to whatever you want to, and ignore logic, rhetoric, and classical thought.

The simple fact of the matter is that Paul does not speak of justification in terms of “works”. Those who think that “works” here mean simply the outward ceremonial laws are not in agreement with St. John Chrysostom or Augustine or Thomas aquinas. Secondly, those who believe that Paul is speaking of initial justification are also not in agreement with any of these authors.

Speaking of foundations, how do you know you exist? How do you know you speak english? How do you know purple is really purple? What is the foundation that you have to believe that you are able to know anything in reality? What we are diving into are deepl epistemological issues which can lead one to think that one cannot know anything for sure

Can we assume that we can read the scripture and historical writings of early church fathers? If there is a possiblity, then we should not write off everyone but one interpretation just because it says it is the right one.
 
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