Beginning with luther?

[choliks]

For instance, the office of Bishop depended on the holiness and personal faithfulness to Christ of the human person, not the other way around.

Secondly, there is a huge decline in the practice of church discipline in the church. Nowadays you have fornicators, drunks, adulterers, porn addicts, people living with their boyfriends, plain out lukewarm people filling up the Catholic Church ALL partaking of the Lord’s Supper with no physical pain or death inflicted.

When I see brothers and sisters in Christ who are baptist who absolutely have risked their lives for the gospel and who day -to day live for Jesus Christ who do not take a real presence Eucharist, nor do they have any of the other sacraments, AND THEN when I see many many catholics who take the sacraments but who are simply outright unholy, it fails to attract me to the Catholic Church.

Of all your posts (which are well written, me thinks), this caught my attention with a little (a wee bit) of annoyance. Of course you will see all sorts of sinful people in the Catholic Church. It has been repeated a couple of hundred times in this fora: the Church is not a museum of Saints, but a hospital for sinners. If the Church is just a museum of Saints, then her mission has been fulfilled.

Moreover, by stating the points you mentioned above, what made you a judge of other people’s lives? Have you been given the special gift of reading other people’s hearts? What makes you apart from this people?

 

[choliks]

To the modern day Catholic Church as a whole.

The early Christians insisted that if one did not bear fruits worthy of repentance, they were not one of the Lord’s. Those tress which did not bear good fruit were to be taken through the process of church discipline, which the early christians did, and yet the Catholic church allows anyone to come and stay, even to take the Eucharist, allowing each inidividual to decide for himself.

What made you more righteous than this people? You’re beginning to sound like a character in Luke 18:9.

 

[choliks]

Erick, I hope everything that’s been discussed do not boil down to your last 2 posts here.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Oh no, not at all. I am no ones judge.

However, there is a doctrine for Christian judgement inside the Church (1 Corinthians 5).

Anyone who is a so-called “Brother” and has committed fornication, adultery, blasphemy, drunkeness, etc,etc is to be brought into the arena of discipline.

Jesus taught this (Matthew 18). If someone is evil in the midst of the people of God, they are to be warned with the fear of God, urged to repent, and overwhelmed with the promise of forgiveness and peace through repentance…

IF they do not heed this within three steps, where it reaches the level of the Church authority, then they are bound in their sin, and are excommunicated.

Paul commanded the Corinthians to publicly excommunicate, YES IN FRONT OF THE WHOLE CONGREGATION, the man who was in fornication.

Paul taught that the life of the church itself depended on it’s purity. If there is evil in the midst, the church will be defiled.

There is not one Roman Catholic Church where I have ever seen anyone disciplined for their sin. My family, for one, are roman catholics and they all have lifestyles that are in the commission of great sin. Yet the priest is a “loving” man and does not get involved with their lives. He is not a shepherd of Christ.

 

[zz912]

Oh no, not at all. I am no ones judge.

However, there is a doctrine for Christian judgement inside the Church (1 Corinthians 5).

Anyone who is a so-called “Brother” and has committed fornication, adultery, blasphemy, drunkeness, etc,etc is to be brought into the arena of discipline.

Jesus taught this (Matthew 18). If someone is evil in the midst of the people of God, they are to be warned with the fear of God, urged to repent, and overwhelmed with the promise of forgiveness and peace through repentance…

IF they do not heed this within three steps, where it reaches the level of the Church authority, then they are bound in their sin, and are excommunicated.

Paul commanded the Corinthians to publicly excommunicate, YES IN FRONT OF THE WHOLE CONGREGATION, the man who was in fornication.

Paul taught that the life of the church itself depended on it’s purity. If there is evil in the midst, the church will be defiled.

There is not one Roman Catholic Church where I have ever seen anyone disciplined for their sin. My family, for one, are roman catholics and they all have lifestyles that are in the commission of great sin. Yet the priest is a “loving” man and does not get involved with their lives. He is not a shepherd of Christ.

You are setting an impossible standard that no church will ever attain. We are all fallen, and if you expect perfect discipline, you will be dissapointed. Give you current church enough time, a generation will pass, and another pastor who is “loving” and will be lax in discipline, and your church will have the same problem. And you will be forced to move to another church. And the cycle will keep repeating.

Take a better look at the history of the Catholic Church. You will see oscillating periods of strictness and good discipline, and periods of laxity and poor discipline. The Church has gone through many times of returning to discipline after things have gotten bad. This doesn’t invalidate the holiness of the Catholic Church. Christ will protect His Church, and She will be cleansed again from this period of poor discipline.

Also, don’t get too focused on simply looking at the problems of the dioceses in America, and think it is universal to the entire Church. There are many places where the Church is vibrant and active, with good discipline. There are places where the Church is under persecution. Don’t think the over-gluttonous attitudes of America are systemic.

 

[Bookcat]

Thank you for sharing that information.

To be quite as honest as I possibly can, I am hoping that I can come to see the Roman Catholic Church as the Church Christ planted. It provides a major organizational structure and a rich root in history.

When speaking of the Church as a whole – better term is the “Catholic Church”.

“Roman” is more fitting for the Roman Church which is among other Churches within the Catholic Church.

However, despite this fact, it does not seem the Catholic Church has continued with it’s original succession. In fact I believe that the succession of the apostles resides in those communities where they interpret the apostles correctly.

Such would be a mistaken understanding. The Gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church --and the office of Peter is directly related to this.

For instance, the office of Bishop depended on the holiness and personal faithfulness to Christ of the human person, not the other way around.

The office does not depend on holiness --but holiness is to be lived by those in the office. Peter denied Christ three times…and he and other Apostles fleed …

Secondly, there is a huge decline in the practice of church discipline in the church. Nowadays you have fornicators, drunks, adulterers, porn addicts, people living with their boyfriends, plain out lukewarm people filling up the Catholic Church ALL partaking of the Lord’s Supper with no physical pain or death inflicted.

In terms of receiving while living a gravely sinful life or in grave sin – they are then they can be guilty of more very grave sins…the Catholic Church teaches that such is not to happen…

When I see brothers and sisters in Christ who are baptist who absolutely have risked their lives for the gospel and who day -to day live for Jesus Christ who do not take a real presence Eucharist, nor do they have any of the other sacraments, AND THEN when I see many many catholics who take the sacraments but who are simply outright unholy, it fails to attract me to the Catholic Church.

Many Catholics do the same if not more…(intensely following Christ) --one will find them often at daily Mass…and in Monasteries and in the Missions and in their homes joyfully caring for others…etc etc…but yes due to the larger number of Catholics in the world --there are going to be a large number who have turned to the surrounding culture and due to the cultural uphevals of the 1960’s and 1970’s many drifted away and did not learn their Faith etc —one of the reasons we focus on the New Evangelization.

and there are going to be Baptists who have fallen away from the practice as well --and there are other factors such as the small number of persons in a Baptist congregation and due to other social aspects etc.

---

So many Protestants…including Ministers come into full communion with the Catholic Church in part due to reading the Early Church Fathers and seeing --they where Catholic.

 

[Bookcat]

But really the main issue I have with -]Roman/-] Catholicism right now is the failure to practice church discipline.

Yes the Devil and the World and the Flesh are alive and working in the world…

the culture that currently surrounds us is more and more becoming similar to that which surrounded the early Church.

Many are in need of conversion – of encountering Christ and committing themselves fully – in need of the “new evangelization” – of the “renewal of the mind”.

But the Church is aware of this and is engaged proclaiming Christ anew to all – this is the “New Evangelization”…and indeed this is part of the reason for the current “Year of Faith”

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Yes. But it is the churches responsibility to excommunicate backsliden members. Read the voice of christ in revelation 3. He threatens churches with his absence if they do not lick out offenders who are not repentant.

 

[Bookcat]

O

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/lent/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20111103_lent-2012_en.html

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Yes. But it is the churches responsibility to excommunicate backsliden members. Read the voice of christ in revelation 3. He threatens churches with his absence if they do not lick out offenders who are not repentant.

 

[Bookcat]

Yes. But it is the churches responsibility to excommunicate backsliden members. .

Differing prudential judgments as to whom to excommunicate and how vary from age to age. The Church judges to have various things bring automatic excommunication --and some things to bring excommunication in other ways. Society and cultures change.

But such is a judgement that the Church makes according to what is judged the best course at the time.

In earlier days --especially when the Church was often persecuted everywhere (and thus members could tend to be quite fervent) and was smaller – such could work in a way that today would have often the opposite effect.

Jesus desires mercy and conversion and what will work to bring them back…and in this time such would not often work well

As to Paul – as I recall he was speaking in particular there of one engaged in more than fornication but a very very grave version of such that was a public matter.

As to those who are in grave sin -they are not necessarily excommunicated --but are called to repentance in other ways and are not to receive Holy Communion etc until they have repented and been reconciled.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

If it comes to the attention of anyone in the church and it is unrepentant Paul commanded them to put that person out of the church b, not just communion. Read 1 cor 5

 

[Bookcat]

Catechism:

1385 To respond to this invitation we must prepare ourselves for so great and so holy a moment. St. Paul urges us to examine our conscience: "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself."218 Anyone conscious of a grave sin must receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before coming to communion.

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Yes I agree. But Paul commanded in addition to that to remove the sinning person from the fellowship. This is simply unheard of in the catholic church modern day. It was not unheard of in the early church. They put people out for years until the person showed sufficient repentance.

This was a command. Paul didn’t even tell them to see if he would change. He just commanded him to be excommunicated. But it was done with the view that theperson would repent and be saved.

The principles was a little leaven leavens the whole lump

 

[Bookcat]

If it comes to the attention of anyone in the church and it is unrepentant Paul commanded them to put that person out of the church b, not just communion. Read 1 cor 5

Paul is talking in the first part there about* a very specific case of extreme immorality* (not even seen among the Pagans!).

And we do have excommunications for various very serious offences – such as abortion.

As to seeking to “excommunicate” for serious sin --the Church must judge prudentially what to do in each place and time --for the good. Such would have the opposite effect than what is desired if one would “excommunicate” all who ever commit a mortal sin…

 

[Bookcat]

The

…again such would have the opposite effect in our time and culture. Different practical judgments for different times.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Jesus commanded excommunication after three steps of attempting to bring the person to repentance.

Jesus taught the Christians that it was the responsibility of each Christian to bring discipline upon a brother for any so. He or she may be in. That person if they fail to repent, on 2 times. Jesus said the next step is the church MUST get involved. If the person does not repent, he is cast out. And it is disobedience to these commands among catholic churches is what I believe causes much of the problems in Catholicism.

The only faithful people practicing this that I know are some Presbyterians, baptist anabaptists, Plymouth brethren, and mennonites

 

[Bookcat]

Jesus commanded excommunication after three steps of attempting to bring the person to repentance.

Jesus taught the Christians that it was the responsibility of each Christian to bring discipline upon a brother for any so. He or she may be in. That person if they fail to repent, on 2 times. Jesus said the next step is the church MUST get involved. If the person does not repent, he is cast out. And it is disobedience to these commands among catholic churches is what I believe causes much of the problems in Catholicism.

The only faithful people practicing this that I know are some Presbyterians, baptist anabaptists, Plymouth brethren, and mennonites

It is the misunderstanding of the nature of the words of Jesus referred to there that is part of the difficulty here. In a more extreme example …some could say that only those Christian groups who -pick up poisonous snakes - are the ones that are following that verse at the end of the Gospel of Mark about they will handle serpents…(they of course as we would agree are mistaken greatly in their understanding…I pose it as a more extreme example)

The words of Jesus are not meaning that one has to apply the three steps and send all those who commit mortal sin packing… but he is certainly pointing out the importance of fraternal correction

Jesus gave the Church the authority to bind and loose. And in particular Peter.

And the Church can change and apply discipline as is prudently judged from age to age.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/lent/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20111103_lent-2012_en.html (start reading from the number 1 and onward)

 

[Bookcat]

From the link:

““Being concerned for each other” also entails being concerned for their spiritual well-being. Here I would like to mention an aspect of the Christian life, which I believe has been quite forgotten: fraternal correction in view of eternal salvation. Today, in general, we are very sensitive to the idea of charity and caring about the physical and material well-being of others, but almost completely silent about our spiritual responsibility towards our brothers and sisters. This was not the case in the early Church or in those communities that are truly mature in faith, those which are concerned not only for the physical health of their brothers and sisters, but also for their spiritual health and ultimate destiny. The Scriptures tell us: “Rebuke the wise and he will love you for it. Be open with the wise, he grows wiser still, teach the upright, he will gain yet more” (Prov 9:8ff). Christ himself commands us to admonish a brother who is committing a sin (cf. Mt 18:15). The verb used to express fraternal correction - elenchein – is the same used to indicate the prophetic mission of Christians to speak out against a generation indulging in evil (cf. Eph 5:11). The Church’s tradition has included “admonishing sinners” among the spiritual works of mercy. It is important to recover this dimension of Christian charity. We must not remain silent before evil. I am thinking of all those Christians who, out of human regard or purely personal convenience, adapt to the prevailing mentality, rather than warning their brothers and sisters against ways of thinking and acting that are contrary to the truth and that do not follow the path of goodness. Christian admonishment, for its part, is never motivated by a spirit of accusation or recrimination. It is always moved by love and mercy, and springs from genuine concern for the good of the other. As the Apostle Paul says: “If one of you is caught doing something wrong, those of you who are spiritual should set that person right in a spirit of gentleness; and watch yourselves that you are not put to the test in the same way” (Gal 6:1). In a world pervaded by individualism, it is essential to rediscover the importance of fraternal correction, so that together we may journey towards holiness. Scripture tells us that even “the upright falls seven times” (Prov 24:16); all of us are weak and imperfect (cf. 1 Jn 1:8). It is a great service, then, to help others and allow them to help us, so that we can be open to the whole truth about ourselves, improve our lives and walk more uprightly in the Lord’s ways. There will always be a need for a gaze which loves and admonishes, which knows and understands, which discerns and forgives (cf. Lk 22:61), as God has done and continues to do with each of us.”

–Pope Benedict XVI

 

[carlos19]

Chrysostom believes that the gift of righteousness is the quality status of being righteous by faith repentance and conversion. This is immediately given. The status of being right with god.

Just like Catholics believe

From Catholic Dictionary

Justification -. The process of a sinner becoming justified or made right with God. As defined by the Council of Trent. “Justification is the change from the condition in which a person is born as a child of the first Adam into a state of grace and adoption among the children of God through the Second Adam, Jesus Christ our Savior” (Denzinger 1524)

but my question was in regards to Chrysostom writing to believers that if you were to look into the souls of the monastics who dwell in the desert, you would find such brilliance that it would knock you over. Do you think this points to him believing in “real” righteousness in the souls of these monks. Again, he was talking to believers. He also wrote about works being salvific.

There appears to me to be a contradiction in what he wrote in the homily on Romans (especially on faith alone) and what he wrote in other works. Contradictionary only if you hold to traditional protestant beliefs…which I know you do not hold to all of them (faith alone, ie non-sola scriptura, unbelief in christ’s imputed righteousness)

Do you think that the historical apostolic churches (ie Eastern Orthdox, Oriental Orthodox, Catholic) salvation theology can reconcile what appears to be contradictory statements?