Beginning with luther?

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Yes a great thicket. But the same thicket exists within the catholic apologists modern day. One says onething, another says another.

If we are stripped of our rational ability to read historical documents with the same objective materials at hand to best understand it, then it is just a power plant to overcome all resistance.

Hands down the protestant doctrine was there in the fathers.
I don’t have the time to read the whole thread which is a shame. I just want to respond to this for now.

No kidding. Of course there are going to be ideas in Church history that protestants built on. Theology is by its nature develpomental and synthsis. No one really says anything new in theology-especially since the Reformation. Take hermeneutic theology which Augustine addresses at the end of The Confessions. Actually, if you think it’s something new, look to Augustine. He probably said it.

You can also find echos of gnostism in in some of those older sources. What does that mean? Not much. They were writing in a historical context which brings me to your next point…

To deny our intellegence and affect is just dumb. It’s tantamount to the denial of God by denying the gifts given to you. The truth is the Bible and theologians write in a context. It is what it is. If you read Bonhoeffer (since you mentioned Luther) without understanding WWII you wouldnt really get him, so to speak. You would get the general idea, but not the greater meaning.

People love to act as if the church fathers and Luther and the Reformers were modern american evangelicals. They werent. Luther is brutally brilliant. His collected works is 55 volumes for about 22,000 pages. Thats a prolific, awesome, amazingly smart guy.
 
they are left side by side…

…there is more than one sense in Scripture…one can take a lessen from such.
 
…again such would have the opposite effect in our time and culture. Different practical judgments for different times.
 
Yes gentleness must be there. But Jesus was clear. Three steps. Paul was clear, put the evil man out. If they refuse to change
 
Yes gentleness must be there. But Jesus was clear. Three steps. Paul was clear, put the evil man out. If they refuse to change
Such is not to be taken in the way your taking such…

Jesus also said if your eye causes you to sin --pluck it out.
 
I am not sure why you would say that. The principles that Paul uses transcends culture. Evil corrupts good. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Paul said to not have any association with someone who is absolutely called brother who practices sin, not even to eat with him. This would make perfect sense to Jews who could not sit and eat with gentiles. Now we can sit with anyone so long as they are holy and pure. If they call themselves Christians and do not repent from their sin, Paul says have nothing to do with them. Both in 1 Corinthians 5 and 2 thessalonians. To take it any other way is simply to fudge the clear meaning of the apostolic voice and it is the reason many are decieved because they think they can be half hearted in their walk with christ and still go to heaven. The lord will only receive them that are pure in heart and practice righteousness (matt 7:21)
 
Yes those in mortal sin –need to repent–and fraternal correction is important–but what I noted above remains the case…

Prudence and judgement by the successors of the Apostles etc enters in…
 
Absolutely. And if you read how the catholic church conducted discipline back in the first 5 centuries, you would be shocked. Those bishops would be amazed at today’s lax on discipline
 
Absolutely. And if you read how the catholic church conducted discipline back in the first 5 centuries, you would be shocked. Those bishops would be amazed at today’s lax on discipline
That’s what I want to ask… What makes you think it’s lax?
 
Absolutely. And if you read how the catholic church conducted discipline back in the first 5 centuries, you would be shocked. Those bishops would be amazed at today’s-] lax/-] differences on discipline
From heaven --they understand the different times, developments…culture etc 🙂
 
How does sin and repentance change over time? Are you telling me the mortal sin lists of the new testament are intertwined with the shifts in culture?
 
And I would note --Small close nit communities …are rather different than large ones encompassing the world.

Just as the young fruit of the mustard seed is different than what comes from that young beginning.
 
Catechism:

II. THE CHURCH IS HOLY

823 "The Church . . . is held, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holy. This is because Christ, the Son of God, who with the Father and the Spirit is hailed as ‘alone holy,’ loved the Church as his Bride, giving himself up for her so as to sanctify her; he joined her to himself as his body and endowed her with the gift of the Holy Spirit for the glory of God."289 The Church, then, is "the holy People of God,"290 and her members are called "saints."291

824 United with Christ, the Church is sanctified by him; through him and with him she becomes sanctifying. "All the activities of the Church are directed, as toward their end, to the sanctification of men in Christ and the glorification of God."292 It is in the Church that "the fullness of the means of salvation"293 has been deposited. It is in her that "by the grace of God we acquire holiness."294

825 "The Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real though imperfect."295 In her members perfect holiness is something yet to be acquired: "Strengthened by so many and such great means of salvation, all the faithful, whatever their condition or state - though each in his own way - are called by the Lord to that perfection of sanctity by which the Father himself is perfect."296

826 Charity is the soul of the holiness to which all are called: it "governs, shapes, and perfects all the means of sanctification."297

If the Church was a body composed of different members, it couldn’t lack the noblest of all; it must have a Heart, and a Heart BURNING WITH LOVE. And I realized that this love alone was the true motive force which enabled the other members of the Church to act; if it ceased to function, the Apostles would forget to preach the gospel, the Martyrs would refuse to shed their blood. LOVE, IN FACT, IS THE VOCATION WHICH INCLUDES ALL OTHERS; IT’S A UNIVERSE OF ITS OWN, COMPRISING ALL TIME AND SPACE - IT’S ETERNAL! 298

827 "Christ, ‘holy, innocent, and undefiled,’ knew nothing of sin, but came only to expiate the sins of the people. The Church, however, clasping sinners to her bosom, at once holy and always in need of purification, follows constantly the path of penance and renewal."299 All members of the Church, including her ministers, must acknowledge that they are sinners.300 In everyone, the weeds of sin will still be mixed with the good wheat of the Gospel until the end of time.301 Hence the Church gathers sinners already caught up in Christ’s salvation but still on the way to holiness:

The Church is therefore holy, though having sinners in her midst, because she herself has no other life but the life of grace. If they live her life, her members are sanctified; if they move away from her life, they fall into sins and disorders that prevent the radiation of her sanctity. This is why she suffers and does penance for those offenses, of which she has the power to free her children through the blood of Christ and the gift of the Holy Spirit.302

828 By canonizing some of the faithful, i.e., by solemnly proclaiming that they practiced heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God’s grace, the Church recognizes the power of the Spirit of holiness within her and sustains the hope of believers by proposing the saints to them as models and intercessors.303 "The saints have always been the source and origin of renewal in the most difficult moments in the Church’s history."304 Indeed, "holiness is the hidden source and infallible measure of her apostolic activity and missionary zeal."305

829 “But while in the most Blessed Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she exists without spot or wrinkle, the faithful still strive to conquer sin and increase in holiness. And so they turn their eyes to Mary”:306 in her, the Church is already the “all-holy.”

291 Acts 9:13; 1 Cor 6:1; 16:1.
292 SC 10.
293 UR 3 § 5.
294 LG 48.
295 LG 48 § 3.
296 LG 11 § 3.
297 LG 42.
298 St. Thérèse Of Lisieux, Autobiography of a Saint, tr. Ronald Knox (London: Harvill, 1958) 235.
299 LG 8 § 3; Cf. UR 3; 6; Heb 2:17; 726; 2 Cor 5:21.
300 Cf. 1 Jn 1:8-10.
301 Cf. Mt 13:24-30.
302 Paul VI, CPG § 19.
303 Cf. LG 40; 48-51.
304 John Paul II, CL 16,3.
305 CL 17, 3.
306 LG 65; cf. Eph 5:26-27.

(scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#II)
 
I am sorry. The rule of faith does not change. When someone gets saved, they are freed from sin and must be slaves to righteousness. If a rapper living in the bronx comes to Jesus and goes through RCIA and is baptized into the church, and still wants to get drunk and sleep around, he has to be excommunicated until he repents.
 
How does sin and repentance change over time? Are you telling me the mortal sin lists of the new testament are intertwined with the shifts in culture?
How to correct the sinner may change accordingly…

Something found prudent in one culture and time can be not understood in another …and have the opposite effect than desired.
 
Well Paul definitely does not change his view on excommunication from Judaism. To abstain from eating with someone and not associating with people are what Jews did to those who were unrighteous before God.

Paul is applying this to a gentile church.
 
I am sorry. The rule of faith does not change. When someone gets saved, they are freed from sin and must be slaves to righteousness. If a rapper living in the bronx comes to Jesus and goes through RCIA and is baptized into the church, and still wants to get drunk and sleep around, he has to be excommunicated until he repents.
He can not enter the Church…he is not yet ready for baptism.

Now if he should fall after baptism…well he may not go to Holy Communion (and various other things are closed to him in the Church until he repents) …he needs his brothers to pray for him and do penance for him…to correct him in a loving way. But “excommunication” in this case would likely have the opposite effect than Jesus wants…it is likely to push him further away…
 
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