Beginning with luther?

[Sirach2]

Another brief though, Erick.

The first gospel was not written until a few decades after Jesus’s death. It was transmitted orally by his followers. Can you imagine those uneducated people saying to them, show me where that is in the bible? In fact, how many copies of the gospel in its entirety do you believe were available to the common man, considering the difficulty of transcribing the Word and distributing it to thousands of converts?

We are very much reliant, therefore, upon ORAL TRADITION as solemn teachings transmitted faithfully by the apostles. Only the “keys” have the infallibility assurance from Christ to interpret both scripture AND Divine Tradition.

In reality, FAITH cometh by “hearing” and the grace of God enabling the listener to believe.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Your bringing up the wrong arguments. I never said to ditch oral tradition. What I am saying is that peter did not teach anyone his specific and unique dynastic succession from Matthew 16. Theearly oral tradition does not show this

 

[Swiss_Guy]

What website?

I got the quote of John Chrysostom from New advent.

Also, I’ve have consistently gone through Chrysostom’s writing and it simply does not match with Catholic exegesis.

He understands “Righteousness” in Romans as the gift of status, not the inward sanctifying grace of “making us inwardly righteous”, He understands that this is primarily the remission of sin, he outright rejects the idea that the gift of justification is a behavioral or habitual grace and rather is the gift of status and quality before God, he believes that we are justified on the instance of faith without any works contributing (only faith), he understands the Adam/Christ parallel in terms of forensic contrasts (Adam making us guilty and Christ making us righteous)… I am really not sure what more you want from him…

He outright says “faith alone” in a number of contexts concerning justification. Of course he mentions the necessity of works when it comes to the final judgement, which all protestants have acknowledged (reformed).

Church Militant, you are forgetting that you were never deep in the protestant faith. You have never really sat down with protestant scholars to examine the writings of the early fathers and the texts of the new testament. If so, what training do you have?

It seems as though what Catholics do is they read something in the Fathers and they think that by virtue of it’s acceptance, it must be true and faithful to Christ. For instance, purgatory. We know that purgatory is not in the scriptures, plain and simple. However, it definitely is there in the early fathers. The Catholic applies the rational that this must have been a faithful oral tradition since these fathers believed it and practiced their faith concerning it. This is not illogical at all, it is reasonable. But to take it to the extent that the Catholics took it especially during the era just before the reformation was simply wrong. If purgatory is true, it is not in the 27 books of the NT. Of course the NT is an abbreviated version of the gospel and the tradition handed down from the apostles, and therefore we must not look here for all the traditions, but I am just a little scared to believe it with all my heart, especially when I see Catholics using 1 Corinthians 3 to show that purgatory is true. It would be better just to keep it to the oral tradition because the lack of intelligence involved with seeing purgatory in 1 Corthians 3 makes the whole party of the Catholics look unreliable and unfit to reason well.

Church Militant, I have been visiting the Catholic Church now for months. I have developed a friendship with an RCIA instructor who has 2 PHD’s in Catholic Theology and Scholarship. He has recommended books and literature that I have run through and have thought carefully about. I am not the average protestant who just snarls at the idea of the roman catholic church and the pope. I actually admire the whole system and I think that it’s organizational structure is very helpful. I actually wished that there was logical and historical precedence for the structure.

For instance, I do not think Matthew 16 or the original appointed bishops of the catholic church used this verse as a petrine dynastic structure. I do not believe you can squeeze the idea of succession. I believe the keys of the kingdom are used just like the key of knowledge is used by the pharisees. The keys of the kingdom were previously used by those sitting in the seat of moses, now the keys are in the hands of those who sit in the seat of the apostles, which is not a transmission of succession necessarily, but of godly men who love God and whose life show good works and devotion and that they carry the doctrine of the apostles, this is what carries the doctrine of the apostles.

On top of this, you have many doctrines in the Catholic Church which simply contradict the teaching of the NT. The Catholic Church has taken itself way to strong off such little foundations. Newman sees a flower from a seed, and I see a building sitting on a chicken coop foundation. And along the way, there has been a devastating immoral history in the Catholic Church. If the Catholic Church believes in the necessity of good works, the sure as hell did not act like it. Even today, just go to your average Catholic Church, and tell me if you see a holy people who are devoting to loving one another, caring for each others needs, being of one mind and in the unity of the holy spirit? Oh I know that they are all supposed to adhere to one document, but really does that even happen?

I think there is more disunity in the Catholic Church than there is unity. 1 person is a universalist and another is a fornicating drunkard who just goes to church out of familal custom, he believes he is going to heaven. For such a huge organizational structure, there is little care for the particular concerns for each soul. St. Paul believed it was the job of the clergy to judge the laity and to make sure all are living in accordance with Christ’s commandements and to excommunicate people who refuse to repent. This is exactlty one of the good things about the reformation. It actually started to shock people into the fact that they had to live for Christ, not just go to Church.

You could say the same about any Christian church. Any.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

But it is exceptionally bad in the catholic church . I feel more heaven bound anywhere else

 

[Church_Militant]

What website?

The one you cited here.

Reckon with the citations from thus website

apuritansmind.com/justification/the-early-church-and-justification-compiled-by-dr-c-matthew-mcmahon/

I got the quote of John Chrysostom from New advent.

Also, I’ve have consistently gone through Chrysostom’s writing and it simply does not match with Catholic exegesis.

According to you, right? Yet I showed you where you were wrong on the citation that you offered.

He understands “Righteousness” in Romans as the gift of status, not the inward sanctifying grace of “making us inwardly righteous”, He understands that this is primarily the remission of sin, he outright rejects the idea that the gift of justification is a behavioral or habitual grace and rather is the gift of status and quality before God, he believes that we are justified on the instance of faith without any works contributing (only faith), he understands the Adam/Christ parallel in terms of forensic contrasts (Adam making us guilty and Christ making us righteous)… I am really not sure what more you want from him…

And you can’t possibly be misinterpreting him by reading him through those oh-so-Protestant lenses you’re wearing, right? Odd that guys like Scott Hahn are at least as scholarly as you, (perhaps more so) and yet he sees no such problems, and in fact, it was his study of the ECF that led him to convert.

He outright says “faith alone” in a number of contexts concerning justification. Of course he mentions the necessity of works when it comes to the final judgement, which all protestants have acknowledged (reformed).

So? In Context he obviously does not see it as modern n-Cs do.

Church Militant, you are forgetting that you were never deep in the protestant faith. You have never really sat down with protestant scholars to examine the writings of the early fathers and the texts of the new testament. If so, what training do you have?

Oh, see now…none of us are smart enough or well trained enough (not even our Pope and all our highly trained clergy) to get Christianity right …ooooooookay. 30+ years as an n-C, and don’t know Protestantism? Yeah, sure Erik.

It seems as though what Catholics do is they read something in the Fathers and they think that by virtue of it’s acceptance, it must be true and faithful to Christ. For instance, purgatory. We know that purgatory is not in the scriptures, plain and simple. However, it definitely is there in the early fathers. The Catholic applies the rational that this must have been a faithful oral tradition since these fathers believed it and practiced their faith concerning it. This is not illogical at all, it is reasonable. But to take it to the extent that the Catholics took it especially during the era just before the reformation was simply wrong. If purgatory is true, it is not in the 27 books of the NT. Of course the NT is an abbreviated version of the gospel and the tradition handed down from the apostles, and therefore we must not look here for all the traditions, but I am just a little scared to believe it with all my heart, especially when I see Catholics using 1 Corinthians 3 to show that purgatory is true. It would be better just to keep it to the oral tradition because the lack of intelligence involved with seeing purgatory in 1 Corthians 3 makes the whole party of the Catholics look unreliable and unfit to reason well.

If you say so…Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

On top of this, you have many doctrines in the Catholic Church which simply contradict the teaching of the NT. The Catholic Church has taken itself way to strong off such little foundations. Newman sees a flower from a seed, and I see a building sitting on a chicken coop foundation.

Yet you have yet to show any of said contradictions and every one you have offered has been refuted.
(Cont’d)

 

[Church_Militant]

And along the way, there has been a devastating immoral history in the Catholic Church. If the Catholic Church believes in the necessity of good works, the sure as hell did not act like it. Even today, just go to your average Catholic Church, and tell me if you see a holy people who are devoting to loving one another, caring for each others needs, being of one mind and in the unity of the holy spirit? Oh I know that they are all supposed to adhere to one document, but really does that even happen?

One, mind your mouth. (See Matthew 12:36) And as a matter of simple fact, I do. That describes my parish quite well. Perfect? no…but doing all they can to get there.

Why do you try to hold the Catholic faith up to a standard that none of the n-Cs can measure up to either? I think that’s known as a double standard.

And furthermore, all n-Cs are perfect and their history shows them to be shining examples? C’mon, that’s totally untrue, and I know it for a fact. Moreover, individual moral failings do not negate the truths of the faith.

I think there is more disunity in the Catholic Church than there is unity. 1 person is a universalist and another is a fornicating drunkard who just goes to church out of familal custom, he believes he is going to heaven.

Again, holding us to a standard that n-Cs cannot meet either! You make out like every member of n-C communities is holy and sinless, and most all of us could cite ad nauseum cases to prove that generalization to be grossly false. Your http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/emo-epicfail.png fallacy glows like a neon sign on a dark night.

For such a huge organizational structure, there is little care for the particular concerns for each soul.

Allegation without substance and rash generalization.

St. Paul believed it was the job of the clergy to judge the laity and to make sure all are living in accordance with Christ’s commandements and to excommunicate people who refuse to repent. This is exactlty one of the good things about the reformation. It actually started to shock people into the fact that they had to live for Christ, not just go to Church.

Yeah, I see that being done in n-C communities. NOT! Like my dear friends who were told that their children’s disabilities was due to their parents sins.

Like the fellow deacons in the AoG I was a deacon in, who voted to excommunicate a man for alleged marital unfaithfulness without ever approaching him as per the scriptural mandate and flatly refused to table the matter while I did so?

I could go on and on, but I do not hold them to a higher standard like you do us.

 

[Cat_Herder]

What website?
He understands “Righteousness” in Romans as the gift of status, not the inward sanctifying grace of “making us inwardly righteous”,

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1087&pictureid=13952
This is a newborn infant. How does he or she receive this “gift of status” of righteousness? If he or she cannot receive it until he or she is a certain age, then are you saying that God wills babies to go to hell? If he or she is righteous automatically, then show us where the Bible says, book chapter and verse, that he or she will lose his or her righteousness and salvation upon hitting a certain age unless he or she gets it back through faith alone.

He understands that this is primarily the remission of sin, he outright rejects the idea that the gift of justification is a behavioral or habitual grace

Where has the Catholic Church ever taught that grace is a behavior or a habit? Grace is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, not a behavior or a habit. You’re not even arguing against the Catholic Church, but a figment of your own misguided imagination.

He outright says “faith alone” in a number of contexts concerning justification. Of course he mentions the necessity of works when it comes to the final judgement, which all protestants have acknowledged (reformed).

Are you saying that God would allow the Scriptures and Fathers to be misunderstood for a thousand years so that no one would be saved until Luther showed up? Please.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 2:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]

Church Militant, you are forgetting that you were never deep in the protestant faith. You have never really sat down with protestant scholars to examine the writings of the early fathers and the texts of the new testament. If so, what training do you have?

I was deep in “the protestant faith” (as if there was such a thing) and I am a convert from Lutheranism. I read his large and small catechisms. But that’s irrelevant. Stop attacking the speaker and get on topic.

It seems as though what Catholics do is they read something in the Fathers and they think that by virtue of it’s acceptance, it must be true and faithful to Christ. For instance, purgatory. We know that purgatory is not in the scriptures, plain and simple.

Here it is.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 3:15[/BIBLEDRB]

However, it definitely is there in the early fathers. The Catholic applies the rational that this must have been a faithful oral tradition since these fathers believed it and practiced their faith concerning it.

Here you are telling us what we believe and lecturing us on why we believe it. No, I accept the existence of Purgatory precisely because it is in the Bible and also because I recognize that I have attachments to things in this world and so going to Heaven will be painful for me–and that God respects my free will, and so He will not forcibly divorce me of my worldly attachments when I die. That is my responsibility to do and I accept that.

The Catholic Church has taken itself way to strong off such little foundations. Newman sees a flower from a seed, and I see a building sitting on a chicken coop foundation. And along the way, there has been a devastating immoral history in the Catholic Church. If the Catholic Church believes in the necessity of good works, the sure as hell did not act like it. Even today, just go to your average Catholic Church, and tell me if you see a holy people who are devoting to loving one another, caring for each others needs, being of one mind and in the unity of the holy spirit? Oh I know that they are all supposed to adhere to one document, but really does that even happen?

Meanwhile, here you are telling us how you are a super-genius from all of your studies and how bad Catholics who humbly implore the mercy of God are. I’ve heard this story before…

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 18:9-14[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Bookcat]

Been away …(no power) so not been following this thread of late.

But will note that over all the centuries back to the first – yes there have been those who have not lived well as Christians within the Catholic Church (even great sinners in need of great repentance)-- especially in particularly dark historical periods – having said that though – there have been countless numbers who have and who indeed have lived such in a glorious fashion! Even in the darker periods of history the Church has not lacked its very bright lights who followed the Lamb with even high heroic sanctity.

Christians of every kind – Popes, Bishops, married Christians, single Christians, children, Nuns, Monks, Friars, Priests, Hermits, Scholars, Confessors and Martyrs…

From the beginning one finds Christians who did not live as they ought…and one finds them in every epoch --it is not new.

The Church is Holy! Made up of saints and even Saints…

But at the same time she embraces sinners.

*"While Christ, holy, innocent and undefiled knew nothing of sin…

… the Church, embracing in its bosom sinners, at the same time holy and always in need of being purified, always follows the way of penance and renewal."* -Second Vatican Council – Lumen Gentium

Let all turn more and more to the Lord and with his grace…let all walk more and more in the Spirit --putting to death that which is not good…

…following Christ the Good Shepherd the Lord!

 

[JustaServant]

What website?

I got the quote …

There is so much hate and egotism in this post, I hardly know where to begin.
Not sure how old you are, but one of the advantages of growing older is the realization of the world of knowledge in which the surface has only been scratched. Unless you allow yourself and your mind to be stretched beyond the parameters you have set, you will always appear to those around you as a closed minded indivdual.
Many moons ago I was a fundamentalist preacher, I studied the Bible thoroughly and also thought I knew all things. I was “saved”, those other people beyond the mental bubble I put myself in were “going to Hell”. Since I “had the Spirit”, I understood the Bible and only those “with the Spirit (or my interpretation of Him)” could desern the truths of the Bible.
But here was the problem.
My father inserted in me a love for reading and education. The more I read, the less fundamentalist I became, the more I read, the less Protestant I became. The more I read, the more I realized how much there was I did not know.The more I prayed and looked inwardly, the more I realized how arrogant I was.
Some said once: “Question everything, and when you find what you think might be the answer, question that”.
It sounds like you are looking for the “perfect”. Might I ask why? Only God is perfect, if you are truly seeking Him, He will guide you. But only if that seeking is made with a humble and teachable spirit. Most people looking for the “perfect”, are actually looking for what is perfect in their eyes only. They see themselves and “perfect” and want be be around the same.
In this life, that is impossible.
I hate to break that to you. The Catholic Church is made up of the Human Race, not the Master Race. If you want to judge a sinner, I suggest you look at the reflection in the mirror.
Let me quote that famous theologion Archie Bunker:
“God wants you to come to Him on your KNEES, not jiggling 'till your parts fall off”.
You are not “perfect”.
You have not “arrived”.
You do not “know all things”.
You are not “sinless”.
None of us have a “right” to approach a Holy and Omnipotent God.
When you begin at THAT starting gate my friend, THEN you will be amazed at the blessings God will give you.
Maybe some of the time you have spent arguing with people on an internet forum could be better spent opening your mind and heart to what God has to offer.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Read 1 Corinthians 5-6, were the Corinthians proud to obey Paul in excommunicating the sinning man? Was this the sin of self righteousness? Paul said that all fornicators, adulterers, drunkards, homosexuals which have been baptized, forgiven, and call themselves Christians after receiving the knowledge of the truth are to be delivered over to Satan and to be excommunicated.

Is this some primitive abuse of Paul? Did Paul not read the story of the Pharisee and the publican?

 

[Bookcat]

Read 1 Corinthians 5-6, were the Corinthians proud to obey Paul in excommunicating the sinning man? Was this the sin of self righteousness? Paul said that all fornicators, adulterers, drunkards, homosexuals which have been baptized, forgiven, and call themselves Christians after receiving the knowledge of the truth are to be delivered over to Satan and to be excommunicated.

Is this some primitive abuse of Paul? Did Paul not read the story of the Pharisee and the publican?

Leaving aside what in particular was done (being “removed” or avoided etc) within those particular small beginning communities within the Church (though I note that in such beginning small communities things are rather different circumstances).

What was done or not done by Paul and the 12 Apostles may not be what the successors of the Apostles judge to be done in prudence and wisdom in other times and circumstances.

Christ set the Church up this way…living men with authority must make prudential judgments which can vary from those of others times etc.

 

[JustaServant]

Read 1 Corinthians 5-6, were the Corinthians proud to obey Paul in excommunicating the sinning man? Was this the sin of self righteousness? Paul said that all fornicators, adulterers, drunkards, homosexuals which have been baptized, forgiven, and call themselves Christians after receiving the knowledge of the truth are to be delivered over to Satan and to be excommunicated.

Is this some primitive abuse of Paul? Did Paul not read the story of the Pharisee and the publican?

I hate to break this to you, but the Bible is NOT a “how to” book. It is certainly not to be used by people 2000 years later to justify self righteousness. What Paul says is obviously true, but I imagine he is speaking of people who flaunt their sin. Such people should expect the Church to react in a certain way to overt sin.
Was Paul trying to create some type of SuperChurch? Filled only with the pure and the good? If that were so, churches would be empty buildings. You and I are not superior to the people Paul mentioned. The moment we think so, we reveal how depraved we really are.
The Church is to be firm with those who flaunt their sin, but at the same time always be willing to provide a way back. That’s called mercy. Catholics say it every week, Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy. Understanding God’s mercy is why Catholics have the Sacrament of Confession. Even the Pope has a confessor.
You evangelicals quote this Bible verse all the time, “there is no one righteous, no not one”.
But do you really believe it?

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

You think we are tough on sin??? Read your own history of early penetential church discipline in the Catholic church

 

[Sirach2]

Erick,

I have been in your presence in forum after forum, where you persistently vilify the Catholic Church – the one you claim you want to embrace some day. I truly believe you are speaking with forked tongue. You never answer any questions put to you by others, but bypass excellent replies and continue your rant. I’m not so sure the forum rules permit a poster to denigrate the faith so dedicatedly as you have been doing.

Remember this, and I’m not going to look up the scripture, that the thoughts of every heart will one day be made manifest by Christ the just Judge who sees the hidden motive. You may think your mask is fooling us, but remember also, that some of us have received the Holy Spirit’s gift of discernment, so false sheep stand before us in clear vision. Look up the story of Ananias in Acts 5:5. It’s time to abandon this foolish pursuit.

If you are so intent on entering the Church, have you enrolled in RCIA and begun the process? I’m betting no.

I invite you to return when you sincerely want to follow Christ without guile as one of his little ones, and let go of the vicious criticism.

 

[JustaServant]

You think we are tough on sin??? Read your own history of early penetential church discipline in the Catholic church

History cannot be understood in isolation, it cannot be made over again, nor can it be seen as purely Catholic versus Protestant. That is simplistic nonsense. It cannot be reduced to a single storyline that makes it appear that my, you know what, smells less than yours. If you believe “there is no one righteous, no not one”, then we obviously much reach the conclusion it smells equally bad.
But instead of digging up the ghosts of the past, why not stay in the present and see if we can reach an agreement on what we both can do about the smell we are currently, in the here and now, exhibiting?

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

I am cane to investigate the catholic churchiut of a desire to find truthh. The catholic church has a unique characteristic, you cannot be neutral towards it as a religious person. You are either its disciple or its critic.

I have actually become a friend to an rcia instructor and we are always in communication.

 

[Sirach2]

I have actually become a friend to an rcia instructor and we are always in communication.

But you’re not enrolled so as to be received into the Church at Easter, right?

You may be embarrased to have me post all the criticisms you have made about Catholicism. Should I pursue this, or will you admit your antipathy so far?

 

[JustaServant]

I am cane to investigate the catholic churchiut of a desire to find truthh. The catholic church has a unique characteristic, you cannot be neutral towards it as a religious person. You are either its disciple or its critic.

I have actually become a friend to an rcia instructor and we are always in communication.

Critics are not learners. Those who learn to ask questions, as opposed to making pronouncments, are the ones who will always enjoy the wonders of learning. I find peace in the Catholic Church because of it’s solid foundation, a foundation that has not been shaken for 2000 years, despite attempts from both inside and outside its structure.
You look at that history (bad Popes, bad clergy, bad Catholics) as an indictment against the very foundation of the Church.
I see it as miracle that the foundation survived it.
I am a late-comer to this thread, I am glad to hear you are in RCIA.
Don’t allow cynicism to rule your understanding of the Church (or anything for that matter).
Cynicism is always the outward face of emptiness.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

I just do not want to make the wrong decision. I don’t want my kids to grow up around a group that is confessionally not disciplined in holiness of life I believe that such pursuits are not only individual but a little leaven leavens the whole lump.

The Scripture is full of commands to avoid evil people, specifically ministers of christ, not a poor prostitute.

Anything you have to offer is welcomed

 

[Sirach2]

Erick,

Again, the question is:

But you’re not enrolled so as to be received into the Church at Easter, right?

I just do not want to make the wrong decision. I don’t want my kids to grow up around **a group that is confessionally not disciplined in holiness of life. ** I believe that such pursuits are not only individual but a little leaven leavens the whole lump.

The Scripture is full of commands to avoid evil people, specifically ministers of christ

And that would be Catholics, in your righteous opinion???

Anything you have to offer is welcomed

I think you just proved my point - no need for me to dig up the rest of your slurs.