Behold, It Was Leah!

[anthony022071]

Sometimes a Prophet has a vision or dream looking at God riding on the clouds or on the wind as one rides on a horse. Does it mean horses were made in the image of clouds or winds? Please, have mercy!

That’s a bad analogy to what we were talking about. No one says that horses are made in the image of clouds. God uses clouds to show his glory and his presence.

There are kinds of irrational animals who are very intelligent. Nevertheless, they are not persons.

Animals do not actually have intelligence of their own. They are created with intelligence and are given instincts so that they can take care of themselves and figure things out

The difference between our attributes and God’s does not make it any less true that God made ours as likenesses to his own

Oh, but He did! God did make man in the image of His attributes. Only that in man, they are what make man personal. In God, it’s all different. His attributes are part of His essense. There is a big difference between to be and to have.
We have; God is.

Our intelligence and free will are part of our essence or nature as well. God’s essence does not exclude personhood. If you take away personhood from God,you are left with

 

[adstrinity]

Adstrinity, please, don’t make me feel sorry for you! Those “angels” who came down to minister to Jesus in the Getsemane were feelings of resignation vis-a-vis Jesus crucial destiny. Remember Jacob’s dream of the ladder with angels going up and down? The angels would first go up and then down. Those angels were the preocupations and anxieties of Jacob as he found himself lost in strange land and going to strange land without knowing what he was expected to face. His anxieties would go up the ladder and come down with the consolation that everything would be all right. That’s what angels are: Emanations.

I do not ask your pity. I ask for your reasoning. You’d like to read something into the text that is not there. I can accept your reasoning behind Jacob, but, angels are real created beings doing the work of God as referenced in the New Testament and there is nothing you can say to legitimately deny that. It’s fine if you do not believe in the New Testament, but, the NT clearly teaches that angels 1) are real, 2) have interacted with people, 3) do God’s will.

You’re not a very…conservative / orthodox Jew, are you? You’re one of those more…reformed ones, aren’t you?

 

[Ben_Masada]

I do not ask your pity. I ask for your reasoning. You’d like to read something into the text that is not there. I can accept your reasoning behind Jacob, but, angels are real created beings doing the work of God as referenced in the New Testament and there is nothing you can say to legitimately deny that. It’s fine if you do not believe in the New Testament, but, the NT clearly teaches that angels 1) are real, 2) have interacted with people, 3) do God’s will.

You’re not a very…conservative / orthodox Jew, are you? You’re one of those more…reformed ones, aren’t you?

** My reasoning is all that I have been giving here in this place. You are more interested in emotions than reasoning. You want to hear about angels flying around like butterflies. You are not serious enough for a mind-to-mind serious discussion with someone who has a mind of his own.**

 

[Ben_Masada]

Not agreed. The verse is not a declaration of how God will speak henceforward. God is asking Aaron and Miriam why they feel emboldened to rebel against Moses with whom God spoke face to face. The verse suggests that God has revealed his personality to Moses and that Aaron and Miriam by contrast know him only through what you are calling emanations but which the text calls dreams and visions.

Your problem is that you do not understand metaphorical language. God does not have face to speak face-to-face with man.

Also, you must define emanation and show how it is supposed to circumscribe reading of Scripture. This I think cannot be done with reference to Scripture, which does not use the word.

Emanation is too elementary a word to have to insult your intelligence with an explanation. You must have a dictionary. Look it up.

Now, now. Name calling is unnecessary. I recognize that there was no precedent in Judaism for God the Son such as Christians proclaim, which makes sense because it is a unique event. It happened only once and will never happen again. (The Second Coming will be a fulfillment of what happened 2,000 years ago in Nazareth, the Annunciation).

Who decided that this unique event had to happen in Judaism, you, Paul? Why does God have to behave according to the decisions of man? And who are you to say that it had to happen once and to promise that it won’t happen again, another son of God like Jesus? Oh, the Annunciation happened in Nazareth. That’s according to Luke. How about if you ask Matthew where it was? His Joseph-and-Mary never lived in Nazareth before Jesus was born. See what I mean? Is that what you want to impress me with? I am not too fun of contradictions.

[Ben]The Pharisees never picked on Jesus. That’s Pauline conspiracy.

And that can be proven how?

With your compromise to accept a sinner in the person of Jesus. See, if Jesus had addressed the Pharisees in those offending name-calling, he would have broken the Golden Rule of not doing unto others what we would not like they did unto us. Since sin is the transgression of Law, Jesus committed a sin and you no longer can claim he was a paragon of perfection.

I don’t buy it. I’ve read his letters, and I haven’t picked up hate from them. The closest he comes is in Galatians, where he is angry with people who want to impose circumcision on Gentile Christians. But I don’t think that quarrel was with the Pharisees.

No, it was not. Those were the Nazarenes sent from Judea to try to recover the synagogues that Paul would rob the Nazarenes from, because he was unable to build a church with Gentiles from scratch. Then, you haven’t picked up Pauline hatred of the Jews because you do not understand Galatians 4:21-3l, which is the “Margna Carta” of Replacement Theology.

 

[Lapell]

** My reasoning is all that I have been giving here in this place. You are more interested in emotions than reasoning. You want to hear about angels flying around like butterflies. You are not serious enough for a mind-to-mind serious discussion with someone who has a mind of his own.**

And you are not serious enough as to listen to our replies! Ever heard that God created a visible AND invisible universe? Something rather difficult to fathom indeed, I agree. Yet, it doesn’t mean that invisible creatures don’t exist nor that they will never reveal themselves at one point or another. Why should they not be beings? Because you decided it like atheists would?

 

[Lapell]

You did not take that theory of a “Pauline Conspiracy” in the commentaries of the Sages of Israel (in the Talmud, the Mishnah or the Ghemorrah), did you? It comes from elsewhere…
What you bring here on the CAF could be plainly consistent, but it also could be a set of fixed things not because they are solid teachings, but because you are not open to verify their solidity or fragility for fear they would crumble under rigorous examination.

 

[Lapell]

And so you are sticking to your theories so hard so as to look as though you are the winner… Obviously, you will be only in your eyes, since in the eyes of the Truth you don’t stick to it. The truth may hurt you but in the end it will genuinely set you free, Ben, if you would only let it lead you! Many great lovers of truth remained Jews, among them Andre Chouraqui whom I told you about…

 

[Ben_Masada]

And so you are sticking to your theories so hard so as to look as though you are the winner… Obviously, you will be only in your eyes, since in the eyes of the Truth you don’t stick to it. The truth may hurt you but in the end it will genuinely set you free, Ben, if you would only let it lead you! Many great lovers of truth remained Jews, among them Andre Chouraqui whom I told you about…

**Know the Truth and the Truth will set you free. What is the Truth? The Truth is the Word of God. (John 17;17) Whom was the Word of God given? To Israel only and to no other people on earth. (Psalm 147:19,20) This is for you not to have any doubt where the Truth is. **

 

[Ben_Masada]

You did not take that theory of a “Pauline Conspiracy” in the commentaries of the Sages of Israel (in the Talmud, the Mishnah or the Ghemorrah), did you? It comes from elsewhere…
What you bring here on the CAF could be plainly consistent, but it also could be a set of fixed things not because they are solid teachings, but because you are not open to verify their solidity or fragility for fear they would crumble under rigorous examination.

I am all ears. The reason why I remain unmoved in my views is because I see no substance in what you guys share with me.

 

[vacath]

Ben, I am done discussing with you. Pompous assertions are not evidentiary arguments.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, I am done discussing with you. Pompous assertions are not evidentiary arguments.

**My evidences are in the Scriptures. If the Scriptures don’t mean much to you, I understand why you are done discussing with me. **

 

[anthony022071]

The Pharisees never picked on Jesus. That’s Pauline conspiracy. Paul was the target for the Pharisees; not Jesus.

Paul was himself a Pharisee. If the Pharisees never picked on Jesus,does that mean they did not think that Jesus was a sinner and a magician and a blasphemer? That is how he is portrayed by Pharisee writers,as in the Talmud.

 

[vacath]

[Ben]My evidences are in the Scriptures. If the Scriptures don’t mean much to you, I understand why you are done discussing with me.

I’ve already shown, with evidence, that you are not supporting your assertions with Scripture. You responded by asserting with more force. That is why I am done discussing with you. If you respond, you wil have the last word, as I am done.

 

[Lapell]

**Know the Truth and the Truth will set you free. What is the Truth? The Truth is the Word of God. (John 17;17) Whom was the Word of God given? To Israel only and to no other people on earth. (Psalm 147:19,20) This is for you not to have any doubt where the Truth is. **

Yeah, and Christianity was first spread by… Jews, dear Ben Masada! This is for you not tohave any doubt where the Truth really is…

 

[Lapell]

**My evidences are in the Scriptures. If the Scriptures don’t mean much to you, I understand why you are done discussing with me. **

We don’t count jumping at conclusions as “evidence”… There has been a lot of that, you know. Not by Scriptures alone, Ben. Sorry! You could err in many ways just by Scriptures alone. Otherwise, why did the Sages of Israel need to make so many commentaries on them? And even in making them you could (and still can) err…

 

[Lapell]

I am all ears. The reason why I remain unmoved in my views is because I see no substance in what you guys share with me.

I can see it, that you “don’t see” it. Which does not necessarily mean that there is no substance. Just that you don’t see it.

 

[Ben_Masada]

We don’t count jumping at conclusions as “evidence”… There has been a lot of that, you know. Not by Scriptures alone, Ben. Sorry! You could err in many ways just by Scriptures alone. Otherwise, why did the Sages of Israel need to make so many commentaries on them? And even in making them you could (and still can) err…

Okay, so I jump to conclusions, and that’s not good. What do you suggest, that I should wait for you to conclude for me, then adopt your conclusions? But then I would end up by becoming a Catholic just like you.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Yeah, and Christianity was first spread by… Jews, dear Ben Masada! This is for you not tohave any doubt where the Truth really is…

How about an example of Jews who spread Christianity?

 

[Ben_Masada]

I’ve already shown, with evidence, that you are not supporting your assertions with Scripture. You responded by asserting with more force. That is why I am done discussing with you. If you respond, you wil have the last word, as I am done.

I wonder if there is someone here who quotes Scriptures more than I do. I think the real reason is frustration for dealing with someone who knows both fields, his and yours.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Paul was himself a Pharisee. If the Pharisees never picked on Jesus,does that mean they did not think that Jesus was a sinner and a magician and a blasphemer? That is how he is portrayed by Pharisee writers,as in the Talmud.

Paul was never a Pharisee. He liked to say what he was without being true. He said he was an apostle of the Gentiles and never left the Jews in peace. Two percent of missionary work among the Gentiles can hardly classify one as apostle of the Gentiles. Since Damascus in the synagogues of the Jews until his last station in Rome, his target was always the Jews.