Being a lawyer- you have to lie?

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Well, I am planning on studying law and eventually becoming a lawyer. People have always told me lawyers need to lie constantly. Which makes me wonder (and I’m sorry if this makes me seems ignorant), would I be put in a position to have to lie all the time? And does this mean I should consider another career? I would rather work towards another career than have to ignore my moral beliefs.

Thanks and God bless. 🙂
 
Well, I am planning on studying law and eventually becoming a lawyer. People have always told me lawyers need to lie constantly. Which makes me wonder (and I’m sorry if this makes me seems ignorant), would I be put in a position to have to lie all the time? And does this mean I should consider another career? I would rather work towards another career than have to ignore my moral beliefs.

Thanks and God bless. 🙂
I’ve been practicing law for 16 years and I haven’t been in a position where I needed to lie. You can be a moral person and an attorney. I’ve met many attorneys I consider honest, moral people. I have been lied to by many people in all professions, from salespeople to business leaders to plumbers, electricians, etc. I don’t think that they lied because of their profession. If you want to become a lawyer, and you’re an honest person, you’ll be an honest lawyer.
 
Actually the model rules of professional responsibility states that a lawyer cannot knowingly make false statements.

Rule 3.3 governs statements made to a tribunal. (Court of law)
"a) A lawyer shall not knowingly:
1) make a false statement of fact or law to a tribunal or fail to correct a false statement of material fact or law previously made to the tribunal by the lawyer…

Rule 4.1 governs statements made to others.
In the course of representing a client a lawyer shall not knowingly:
a)make a falise statement of material fact or law to a third person; or
b)fail to disclose a material fact when disclosure is necessary to avoid assisting a criminal or fraudulent act by a client, unless disclosure is prohibited by Rule 1.6.

(Rule 1.6 is the confidentiality rule).

So if a lawyer does lie to third parties or a court, they could face reprimand, suspension or loss of their license.
 
Notwithstanding the eighth commandment, it would seem that an attorney is held to a higher professional standard of honesty in terms of the written and spoken word, especially in the courtroom. I’m wondering if the “dishonesty” that gets attributed to lawyers is adherence to the letter of the law in such a manner so that the results of a particular action are counter-intuitive to the layperson (non-attorney.)
 
If you put your profession first then you have no option than to lie. However, if you put God first then there is no need to lie. Being a lawyer doesn’t mean you should lie. Being a lawyer is just like giving voice to the oppressed people in the society. If you lie, then you are giving voice to the oppressors and not the oppressed. If you don’t know much about the case at hand then it is your duty to use your knowledge to analyze the case so the Judge can decide. However, If you know deep within you that what you are saying is false then a good Lawyer shouldn’t say it.
 
Notwithstanding the eighth commandment, it would seem that an attorney is held to a higher professional standard of honesty in terms of the written and spoken word, especially in the courtroom. I’m wondering if the “dishonesty” that gets attributed to lawyers is adherence to the letter of the law in such a manner so that the results of a particular action are counter-intuitive to the layperson (non-attorney.)
I think it has to do with the privilege and confidentiality duties of lawyers. There is often stuff that they cannot reveal or say. And because they do not reveal this stuff people assume they are lying maybe. 🤷

Gloria, no, if a lawyer lies, he/she could be disbarred. How is that putting your profession first?
 
I think that the popular stereotype of lawyers is based mostly from what people know about criminal defense lawyers from TV, and those ubiquitous ads from law firms that encourage people to go out and sue everyone in sight. (As well as news reports of people winning ridiculous lawsuits and getting ridiculous amounts of money.) So people think along the lines of “Well, that guy’s obviously guilty, that alibi is so fake! His lawyer must know he’s lying!” So, they figure, the lawyer must be lying, too. Or, “That lawyer’s asking anyone who got injured to call his office so they can sue someone! Hmm, I wonder what story they’re gonna make up to get big bucks?”

Now, I know that the field of law is much more than just the criminal law and civil lawsuits, and that many lawyers are ethical people who, while acting as advocates for their clients, understand there are limits of what they can do both ethically, legally, and morally. However, the shady lawyers unfortunately seem to attract much more attention than the honest ones.
 
Well, I am planning on studying law and eventually becoming a lawyer. People have always told me lawyers need to lie constantly. Which makes me wonder (and I’m sorry if this makes me seems ignorant), would I be put in a position to have to lie all the time? And does this mean I should consider another career? I would rather work towards another career than have to ignore my moral beliefs.

Thanks and God bless. 🙂
I know lots of lawyers, and I have talked to them at length about this and other things about the practice of law. While I agree with the posters who say they are or know lawyers who don’t lie and that it’s hazardous for lawyers to lie, it has to be recognized that some lawyers live in a sea of lies; not from them so much as from adversaries. I once heard a judge comment that if he ever heard a divorce case in which nobody lied, he would declare a national holiday. Personal injury cases, I heard one judge say, are like that too. Probably those are not the only examples.

What I have heard some lawyers say in frustration about the practice is that after awhile the lying by others gets to them. Case after case after case and lie after lie after lie. Lawyers will tell you their own clients often lie to them. On the other hand, some lawyers get energized by the prospect of tearing down the lies of the other side and manage to encourage their clients to truthfulness as simply being the best policy. I think it’s a personality thing, and you have to decide how you will react to it.
 
I know lots of lawyers, and I have talked to them at length about this and other things about the practice of law. While I agree with the posters who say they are or know lawyers who don’t lie and that it’s hazardous for lawyers to lie, it has to be recognized that some lawyers live in a sea of lies; not from them so much as from adversaries. I once heard a judge comment that if he ever heard a divorce case in which nobody lied, he would declare a national holiday. Personal injury cases, I heard one judge say, are like that too. Probably those are not the only examples.

What I have heard some lawyers say in frustration about the practice is that after awhile the lying by others gets to them. Case after case after case and lie after lie after lie. Lawyers will tell you their own clients often lie to them. On the other hand, some lawyers get energized by the prospect of tearing down the lies of the other side and manage to encourage their clients to truthfulness as simply being the best policy. I think it’s a personality thing, and you have to decide how you will react to it.
I’m 9 years into being a lawyer. And I understand what you’re saying. Part of the problem, as I see it, is that the lies of others are attributed to the lawyer. A spouse lies in a deposition or in testimony, gets caught, and people think the lawyer knew he was lying.

I once took the testimony of a Catholic Priest, during that testimony he looked at me and said, “I’m the only person in this room who gets lied to more than you.”

I once had a judge tell me that the witness who is most likely to lie in any criminal case - so much so that everything he or she utters is suspect - is the testifying police officer. Though that’s a bit jaded, I think there’s a large measure of truth to that statement.

Nothwithstanding all of that bad news, lawyers typically don’t lie. First it presents a moral issue. Second, it presents a professional-ethics problem. And finally, it doesn’t make sense. Most lawyers only represent a client once, but work with the same opposing attorneys over and over. One’s professional reputation (e.g., referrals and the abilty to get a good result by working behind the scenes with opposing counsel) is more important than any one client’s problems.

Lastly, I should note that I think people attribute to lawyers more caring than we really have. I typically don’t care if my client gets a great result in his or her divorce - I didn’t marry the spouse. And I don’t care if my criminal client (who probably confessed) goes to jail. I didn’t rape or steal or defraud. I care about giving them good representation. I care about my job in making our system of civil and criminal justice work. But these problems aren’t mine; they are the problems of other people. And I certainly don’t care enough about their problems to lie on their behalf.

Pax,
OA
 
Lastly, I should note that I think people attribute to lawyers more caring than we really have. I typically don’t care if my client gets a great result in his or her divorce - I didn’t marry the spouse. And I don’t care if my criminal client (who probably confessed) goes to jail. I didn’t rape or steal or defraud. I care about giving them good representation. I care about my job in making our system of civil and criminal justice work. But these problems aren’t mine; they are the problems of other people. And I certainly don’t care enough about their problems to lie on their behalf.

Pax,
OA
Maybe so, but I have heard at least one lawyer say he cares more about his clients than they think he does. One of his favorite things to do in a divorce case is to ask a client “What do you want your life to be like after this is over.” He says the answers can be astonishing, and often are. He then tries to tailor the case objectives to fit the “life” objective.

Criminals, of course, are another thing.

But overinvolvement is not good either. One of my favorite sayings (from John Gardner’s “Sunlight Dialogues”) which he actually applied to policemen, in my opinion fits lawyers perhaps even better. I have said it to a couple of judges and some number of lawyers, and they’re always crazy about it. One of the judges even directed his wife to put it in his obituary at his death as something he believed in. So she did.

It goes like this:

“The (lawyer) stands lightly in the present moment, at the same time both committed and detached; like a true Christian or a philosopher of old, who knows this world to be no home, but a wilderness.”

I like that line very much.
 
This is a conversation I had with my lawyer just before my divorce trial:

Me: Here’s what happened .
Lawyer: What I heard you say was .
Me: [Not getting it yet, thinking my lawyer misunderstood.] No, that wasn’t it. It was .
Lawyer: When you testify, I am hearing that you are going to say that .
Me: [Light bulb coming on.] Oh. Gotcha.

I assume this was my lawyer’s way of getting me to lie without breaking the letter of the law as far as ethics are concerned.
 
I do litigation support as a professional engineer, retired from industry. I have found that there are as many honest and dishonest attorneys as there are businessmen and engineers. However they do have the unusual responsibility or privilege to not have to tell all they know. If that will bother you (some consider it lying by omission) you will have a struggle of conscience with the profession. Good luck
 
Well, I am planning on studying law and eventually becoming a lawyer. People have always told me lawyers need to lie constantly.
No, they don’t have to and in fact they shouldn’t. Suborning perjury is illegal, as is making false representations to the court, and (mis-)leading questions, except in cross examination, are grounds for objection.
 
One of the reasons I did not become a lawyer (though urged to often, and offered an apprenticeship path for that), was my concern about morals in general. To be successful (not necessarily filthy rich, just remaining employed in someone else’s firm) it was my experience working with lawyers that:

(1) corporate lawyers are urged to be deceitful and withhold information
(2) plaintiff’s lawyers (and sometimes their civil defending counterparts) are urged to be verbally abusive/bullies, etc. Often this class of lawyers is urged to fabricate or exaggerate aspects of injury in tort actions (such as personal injury)
(3) criminal defense attorneys often are virtually “forced” to lie outright, and certainly to deliberately avoid knowing whether the client is guilty even when the client is trying to admit guilt to them.

Now, as to the latter, defense attorneys are not required to be priests. It’s not their job to be a confessor or a moral judge: I’m well aware of that. However, I could not square with Truth the situation of having clear knowledge of a criminal’s actions and offering an untruthful affirmative defense. I could square with Truth simply ensuring that such a client of mine would get a fair trial, would be thoroughly represented as to facts, procedures, and rights of due process, including all rules of evidence, etc. But I personally would never be able to sleep at night knowing I had offered a deliberately deceptive affirmative defense of a client I knew to be guilty of a crime (especially a serious crime) and who had disclosed that to me (or I had equally powerful evidence of). And if such a dishonest defense were to exonerate such a perpetrator despite factual guilt, that would be a sense of my own personal guilt I would never be able to shake. (IOW, no, I do not fully support our country’s current mode & assumptions of practicing criminal defense law, which i.m.o. was not originally how it was practiced in this country. This has evolved over time.)

So back to OP’s question. Had I decided to follow the alternate career path of law instead of education, I would have looked carefully at fields of law, terms and modes of employment, and specialties of law. Thus, there are very moral criminal defense attorneys who never take cases of anyone they’re not convinced did not do the crime. (And, if they discover culpability early on in the process of building to a trial, they withdraw from the case.) This is also a practical move, btw, as it can be difficult to defend a person with passion if one is not convinced of their innocence. Possible, but difficult. I would say it is easier to do a merely formal defense of a thoroughly guilty criminal if you work for the county as a Public Defender, because there is less pressure to put on a showy, manufactured affirmative defense, and you will not lose your job unless you are incompetent or unethical.

There are fields of law which are also much more neutral as to win/lose, and which thus reduce the lying factor: real estate law, some other commercial law (again I would eliminate high-profile corporate law because highly profitable, high-profile businesses have a lot at stake in remaining profitable and in doing so visbly, because of stockholder perception as well as PR consequences).

My probate lawyer I believe partly chose that field because she could remain ethical in it. She also has insisted on always being self-employed. She has never had any pressure to take certain kinds of cases or to perform to some “company standard” regardless of ethics.

There are individual civil attorneys and individual firms which only take certain kinds of cases, or refuse wholly certain classes of cases.

Some people choose family law, but be warned that this is usually one of the least lucrative forms of law unless one gets enough experience and enough of a name to advance to high-profile clients, and then at that stage one will get into shady ethics (verbal abuse, threats, lies). Lower levels of family law do not require lying but do include a lot of “social work” and “criminal law work” in that we’re often talking about domestic abuse, poverty, and crime. (Not the world’s most uplifting way to spend the day.)

There are areas of law which promote some social justice teachings (such as class action lawsuits, such as individual cases supporting constitutional rights of an individual against a corporation or the gov’t), and of course anyone doing a just job in the defense of Justice (whatever the field of law) is indeed promoting Truth as well.

What attracted me to law initially was that I have unending thirst for intellectual argument. By contrast,I have a limited stomach for emotional argument, and unfortunately the latter is also the “stuff” of American law because there is so much “drama” in lawsuits and in courtroom trials. I decided I didn’t want to spend most of my day getting heated with people; it wasn’t good for my psyche or soul. One can be dispassionate if one works in constitutional law or appellate law, but it’s difficult to get positions in these. You usually have to hail from a prestigious law school, etc. (I felt that the anger component in law was not good for my spirituality; it did not make me peaceful in my personal life; so there was a religious component to that aspect of my decision as well.)

So one decision many lawyers have made (I have noticed, recently) is never to litigate.

I know a very successful lawyer who works in a big city, and his firm takes mostly class-action lawsuits, and they’re selective about the ethics of that. That has worked for him.

Do your research! 🙂 (In sum, i.m.o., it is possible but difficult to be an honest, succesful lawyer in the 21st century in the U.S. Lots of research and picking-and-choosing.)
 
One of the reasons I did not become a lawyer (though urged to often, and offered an apprenticeship path for that), was my concern about morals in general. To be successful (not necessarily filthy rich, just remaining employed in someone else’s firm) it was my experience working with lawyers that:

(1) corporate lawyers are urged to be deceitful and withhold information
(2) plaintiff’s lawyers (and sometimes their civil defending counterparts) are urged to be verbally abusive/bullies, etc. Often this class of lawyers is urged to fabricate or exaggerate aspects of injury in tort actions (such as personal injury)
(3) criminal defense attorneys often are virtually “forced” to lie outright, and certainly to deliberately avoid knowing whether the client is guilty even when the client is trying to admit guilt to them.

Now, as to the latter, defense attorneys are not required to be priests. It’s not their job to be a confessor or a moral judge: I’m well aware of that. However, I could not square with Truth the situation of having clear knowledge of a criminal’s actions and offering an untruthful affirmative defense. I could square with Truth simply ensuring that such a client of mine would get a fair trial, would be thoroughly represented as to facts, procedures, and rights of due process, including all rules of evidence, etc. But I personally would never be able to sleep at night knowing I had offered a deliberately deceptive affirmative defense of a client I knew to be guilty of a crime (especially a serious crime) and who had disclosed that to me (or I had equally powerful evidence of). And if such a dishonest defense were to exonerate such a perpetrator despite factual guilt, that would be a sense of my own personal guilt I would never be able to shake. (IOW, no, I do not fully support our country’s current mode & assumptions of practicing criminal defense law, which i.m.o. was not originally how it was practiced in this country. This has evolved over time.)

. . . .
Though I understand what you’re saying, it would be difficult for me to express how much I disagree with you. By way of background: My father and father-in-law were/are lawyers, former prosecutors, and former FBI agents. My father was a trial and appellate judge, and my father-in-law owned a criminal-defense and personal-injury.

I’m also an attorney. And I’ve practiced corporate law, criminal defense (in the military), and international law.

I hear comments like those you make very often. And I certainly understand why people make them (after all, the OJ Simpson trial was probably the closest most people came to experiencing criminal justice) - but you’re wrong. Or at least you’re wrong as a general statement (certainly there are unethical doctors, lawyers, accountants, priests, etc.).

As a general rule, there are few thing that a lawyer holds more dear than his or her ethics. Generally, we don’t lie. We don’t put forward affirmative defenses that we know are false. We don’t hide evidence. We don’t destroy evidence. We don’t influence witnesses. We don’t perpetuate frauds upon the court. And we don’t file false pleadings.

Generally. Out of everyone involved in a case (attorneys, judges, witnesses, the defendant, plaintiff, and jurors), the least likely people to lie are the attorneys and the judge. By a very, very large measure.

I’m very comfortable with taking any attorney at his or her word, until proven differently. When an attorney is called as a witness in a case, I know more than one judge who won’t make the attorney swear a witness’s oath of truthfulness. As an attorney, such an oath is entirely redundant.

I’ve often heard the, “How can you defend someone like that???” question. I think the perception that criminal-defense attorneys lie is derivative of that question - after all, one has to be willing to lie to defend OJ Simpson, Susan Smith, etc . . . right? Wrong.

Because such a question usually indicates an ignorance of our system of justice, I always take great care in explaining why I have no problem defending a criminal defendant. Fortunately, most people - once educated about our system - not only understand the role of the criminal-defense attorney, but they appreciate it.

But occasionally, a person simply won’t trust or tolerate attorneys . . . until, of course, he or she needs one.

The USMC and Attorneys: No greater friend, no more formidable adversary.

Pax,
OA
 
OA, thanks for responding. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. I am not one of those “not very educated about the law,” as you put it. I am quite educated about the law, as I tried to explain in my post. I thought, though, that my post made clear (perhaps not) that there is a huge variety of lawyers and approaches to the practice of law. My post ended with a reminder to pick and choose, and in general I acknowledged that there are many avenues of law in which one is not pressured to make moral compromises.

I do disagree with how criminal law is too often practiced in the U.S., in the 20th and 21st centuries especially. I am not just referring to high-profile cases like OJ Simpson. In fact, I wasn’t even thinking of him. I was thinking, for one thing, of a very small, low-profile criminal case I was a jury on, and the entire point of the case was to get the guy off on a technicality. While watching every detail of that trial, I kept reaffirming to myself how glad I was that I did not choose criminal law for a profession. It doesn’t mean that I didn’t respect the criminal defense attorney; I did. I was just glad that I did not have to make what I felt were moral compromises for me.

I have a lot of lawyer friends and acquaintances. My probate lawyer is a highly ethical lawyer. One criminal defense attorney I worked for was a very ethical lawyer. I know very well a lawyer who takes righteous class-action lawsuits; I even mentioned him in my post. But for the rest of those I know, at least in my region, ethics is not their first priority. Now, it may be that in different regions of the country, there are better ethics being practiced. I am telling you that had I decided to choose law, as I have so often been encouraged to, I would have to be very, very picky about what field and for whom, with whom I worked. I know I am not alone because I have acquaintances who have made the same decision as I, given similar exposure as I have had.

Best to you. Sounds as if you chose the right profession for you.
Sincerely,
E.
 
Both my dad and brother are lawyers. And they don’t lie.

You can present the truth from different points of view, but that’s not lying.

I mean, if a lawyer lies, especially in court, they can get in a bit of trouble. They are simply advocating for their clients - the trick is to not get any information that could sway the case against your client. So dont’ ever ask them if they “did it”. Give them the benefit of the doubt, and simply advocate for their best outcome. My dad always said if he thought or “knew” the client was guilty, he’d advise the client to plead guilty and then he’d argue for a more lenient sentence.

All professions have liars and cheats, but for some reason, people really don’t like lawyers.
 
I’ve been practicing law for 16 years and I haven’t been in a position where I needed to lie. You can be a moral person and an attorney. I’ve met many attorneys I consider honest, moral people. I have been lied to by many people in all professions, from salespeople to business leaders to plumbers, electricians, etc. I don’t think that they lied because of their profession. If you want to become a lawyer, and you’re an honest person, you’ll be an honest lawyer.
I agree that all professions have liars and truth tellers. I don’t know why so many people think that its harder to be a truthful lawyer than, for example, a truthful business person. IMO, its probably harder to be a truthful salesman than a truthful lawyer. I’ve certainly been lied to by more salesmen than I have lawyers.
 
I’ve been practicing law for 16 years and I haven’t been in a position where I needed to lie. You can be a moral person and an attorney. I’ve met many attorneys I consider honest, moral people. I have been lied to by many people in all professions, from salespeople to business leaders to plumbers, electricians, etc. I don’t think that they lied because of their profession. If you want to become a lawyer, and you’re an honest person, you’ll be an honest lawyer.
A lawyer makes money " getting the guilty off", if they use words and actions to ensure those who commit a crime are found innocent then they the lawyers are part of a big lie,Under the legal system, a person who kills a referee in front of 30.000 spectator witnesses is innocent till proven guilty.
 
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