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edwest2
Guest
Thank you. Again, I am quite surprised that this has become such a critical issue - a litmus test if you will.
Peace,
Ed
- Status
Peace,
Ed
G
grannymh
Guest
Here is what I originally said in post 294.
“As one can tell, it is the designation of populations evolving which contradicts the Catholic teaching of one modern Adam and one modern Eve as first progenitors of humanity. Catholics can go along with the improvements in the anatomy such as walking upright, etc.”
Here are some interesting links. Google found the first link.
sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120323134409.htm
The Berkeley links are usually recommended for basic information. Click the words in blue and also follow the “next page” instructions. Please note the use of “population” and “common ancestor” which, by definition, is a population.
evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evograms_07
evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/glossary/glossary_popup.php?word=evolution
evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/evo_01
evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/evo_02
evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/evo_04
Notice on “The Emergence of Humans” page, the adaptation for walking bipedally is at the beginning. Emergence is an excellent descriptive word because the evogram actually emerges from “ancestor” evograms going all the way back to the “Three Domains” hypothesis.
When I said that Catholics can go along with the improvements in the anatomy such as walking upright, etc., I was referring to the evolution theories which theoretically start with the Three Domains. From there is the descent of different species from common ancestors over many generations/centuries. Also at the top, one can see the separation of the chimpanzees and bonobos from the long diagram which leads to the bottom where Homo sapiens stands. This is known as the Homo/Pan split. Each point or branch is a population. Frankly, I have seen better drawings of this split. Nonetheless, each point represents a population. Note. The common ancestor point can also be called a speciation event.
Do I believe all this? Not all of it. Do I believe the current human (hominin) lineage? I do not agree with some descriptions which indicate that a very early fossil was human. In addition, I have private difficulties with species closer to us. In any case, all the above is based on human attempts to explain life on planet earth in terms of populations evolving into new populations. The first human Adam was not a population.
When one looks at all the living organisms, there are plenty of evolution explanations which can be believed or not believed without contradicting Catholic doctrines, provided one accepts God as the Creator. It is that tiny figure at the bottom that represents an evolving population which contradicts the Catholic doctrines on human origin. Today’s evolution model is based on a series of common ancestor populations producing divergent populations. Nowhere, on any evolution chart or diagram, will one see a point where a common ancestor population produces two immediately distinctive, different in kind, human (matter and spirit aka body and soul) individuals. The research text which matches the bottom of the human lineage speaks in population terms of thousands.
Can a person, who accepts today’s evolution model, consider humankind as an exception to the model? Yes, if that person accepts God as the Maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.(Creed professed at Sunday Holy Sacrifice of the Mass) Note that this God is not simply an Intelligent Designer. This God directly interacts with each individual person via creation of the spiritual soul at conception. Thus, it is relatively easy to accept the fact that God interacted with two first humans as He created them in His image via the spiritual soul.
When one looks at today’s evolution model on the Berkeley website, one sees the amazing variety of descendants from the “Three Domains” hypothesis." That in itself should lead a person to the power of the Creator regardless of how material creation is accomplished.
Logically speaking, is there really a way to universally rule out the possibility of Adam and Eve who are peerless?
Primates include apes, monkeys and humans. Considering that today’s evolution model is based on a common ancestor population, there could be all kinds of mixtures.
Correct. Our body is of the material world in the same manner as animal bodies. We are classified as vertebrates. It is our spiritual principle (soul) which distinguishes us from all other species. (CCC, 355-357; CCC, 364-366; CCC, 1730-1732)
Links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Here is a fun link to vertebrates. Looking at all this, one knows that there is a Personal Creator.
google.com/search?q=vertebrates+list&rlz=1T4LENP_en___US538&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=QoA4U9zaOqTLsQSasIBg&ved=0CEAQsAQ&biw=1256&bih=639
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
Now that you have explained your position more fully, I can’t really say I disagree with you.Here is what I originally said in post 294.
“As one can tell, it is the designation of populations evolving which contradicts the Catholic teaching of one modern Adam and one modern Eve as first progenitors of humanity. Catholics can go along with the improvements in the anatomy such as walking upright, etc.”
Here are some interesting links. Google found the first link.
sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120323134409.htm
The Berkeley links are usually recommended for basic information. Click the words in blue and also follow the “next page” instructions. Please note the use of “population” and “common ancestor” which, by definition, is a population.
evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evograms_07
evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/glossary/glossary_popup.php?word=evolution
evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/evo_01
evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/evo_02
evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/evo_04
Notice on “The Emergence of Humans” page, the adaptation for walking bipedally is at the beginning. Emergence is an excellent descriptive word because the evogram actually emerges from “ancestor” evograms going all the way back to the “Three Domains” hypothesis.
When I said that Catholics can go along with the improvements in the anatomy such as walking upright, etc., I was referring to the evolution theories which theoretically start with the Three Domains. From there is the descent of different species from common ancestors over many generations/centuries. Also at the top, one can see the separation of the chimpanzees and bonobos from the long diagram which leads to the bottom where Homo sapiens stands. This is known as the Homo/Pan split. Each point or branch is a population. Frankly, I have seen better drawings of this split. Nonetheless, each point represents a population. Note. The common ancestor point can also be called a speciation event.
Do I believe all this? Not all of it. Do I believe the current human (hominin) lineage? I do not agree with some descriptions which indicate that a very early fossil was human. In addition, I have private difficulties with species closer to us. In any case, all the above is based on human attempts to explain life on planet earth in terms of populations evolving into new populations. The first human Adam was not a population.
When one looks at all the living organisms, there are plenty of evolution explanations which can be believed or not believed without contradicting Catholic doctrines, provided one accepts God as the Creator. It is that tiny figure at the bottom that represents an evolving population which contradicts the Catholic doctrines on human origin. Today’s evolution model is based on a series of common ancestor populations producing divergent populations. Nowhere, on any evolution chart or diagram, will one see a point where a common ancestor population produces two immediately distinctive, different in kind, human (matter and spirit aka body and soul) individuals. The research text which matches the bottom of the human lineage speaks in population terms of thousands.
Can a person, who accepts today’s evolution model, consider humankind as an exception to the model? Yes, if that person accepts God as the Maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.(Creed professed at Sunday Holy Sacrifice of the Mass) Note that this God is not simply an Intelligent Designer. This God directly interacts with each individual person via creation of the spiritual soul at conception. Thus, it is relatively easy to accept the fact that God interacted with two first humans as He created them in His image via the spiritual soul.
When one looks at today’s evolution model on the Berkeley website, one sees the amazing variety of descendants from the “Three Domains” hypothesis." That in itself should lead a person to the power of the Creator regardless of how material creation is accomplished.
Logically speaking, is there really a way to universally rule out the possibility of Adam and Eve who are peerless?
Primates include apes, monkeys and humans. Considering that today’s evolution model is based on a common ancestor population, there could be all kinds of mixtures.
Correct. Our body is of the material world in the same manner as animal bodies. We are classified as vertebrates. It is our spiritual principle (soul) which distinguishes us from all other species. (CCC, 355-357; CCC, 364-366; CCC, 1730-1732)
Links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Here is a fun link to vertebrates. Looking at all this, one knows that there is a Personal Creator.
google.com/search?q=vertebrates+list&rlz=1T4LENP_en___US538&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=QoA4U9zaOqTLsQSasIBg&ved=0CEAQsAQ&biw=1256&bih=639
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grannymh
Guest
Building on post 301 – a few more thoughts to consider.
Being curious about our relatives, we search back to our grandparents and great-grandparents. We look at our great-grandparents and find their descendants. These descendants become our “cousins”. In my childhood neighborhood, there were shirt-tail cousins who were equally loved. When we diagram our family relationships, we come up with a horizontal picture like a huge tree with many branches.
Today’s evolution model is also horizontal because scientists study living organisms and find similar genetic structures. Elephants and ourselves need to eat in order to live; thus we have similar functioning organs. Theoretically, we could go back to the beginning of life and say that some living organisms developed into elephants and others into ants and plants. A theistic approach to all the fascinating living organisms is to credit God as the ultimate Creator and that is good.
But — no matter which way we look at the entire evolution model, we still find an unique branch like no other. We humans are that peerless branch.
Sometimes, that non-scientific author hits the nail on the head. Take a look at the “shift” at Genesis 1: 26. "Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. …” With his lack of modern science, that Genesis author knew the point in creation where God shared Himself with two human creatures biblically known as Adam and Eve. They are in the likeness of God – this means that their very humanity has a spiritual principle (soul) so that they can communicate with God, creature to Creator and Creator to creature.
Returning to the theistic model of evolution, we find that some of the horizontal tree branches started as a twig. Catholicism sees the human twig as Adam and Eve. The difference is that these two unusual beings have the power to live beyond every winter, that is, they have the power to live beyond bodily death.
These two human beings, like other living organisms will need food to live (recall the Garden of Eden) and they will have moral standards to govern their interactions with each other and their interaction with God. Consequently, there would be harmony in their lives. To insure that the human species propagated by Adam and Eve would continue without producing other species in the “population” manner of the evolution model (common ancestor populations evolving into separate new populations), God originated our special species in just two first human beings. Their material anatomy would continue to live according to their own stable human nature. The difference is that Adam and Eve’s matter (material anatomy) is animated, that is brought into life, by God’s immediate creation of their rational spiritual soul.
This profound unity of body and soul is beyond any other branch in the evolution model. It is because of its spiritual soul, that the body made of matter becomes a living human person. (Information source. Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 355-357; 364-366; and 1730-1732)
The evolutionist can examine all of nature. There are assumptions used in the evolution model which need correcting. When it comes to examining our human image in the mirror, all of us need to focus on our uniqueness because we are in the image of our Creator. Being in His image, we alone are called to share in His life by knowledge and love on planet earth and in joy eternal in the presence of the Beatific Vision. This is the reason why we are the exception on evolution’s tree of life.
Links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
For additional information about our exceptional nature, study paragraphs 355-421.
And then meditate on John 3: 16.
Being curious about our relatives, we search back to our grandparents and great-grandparents. We look at our great-grandparents and find their descendants. These descendants become our “cousins”. In my childhood neighborhood, there were shirt-tail cousins who were equally loved. When we diagram our family relationships, we come up with a horizontal picture like a huge tree with many branches.
Today’s evolution model is also horizontal because scientists study living organisms and find similar genetic structures. Elephants and ourselves need to eat in order to live; thus we have similar functioning organs. Theoretically, we could go back to the beginning of life and say that some living organisms developed into elephants and others into ants and plants. A theistic approach to all the fascinating living organisms is to credit God as the ultimate Creator and that is good.
But — no matter which way we look at the entire evolution model, we still find an unique branch like no other. We humans are that peerless branch.
Sometimes, that non-scientific author hits the nail on the head. Take a look at the “shift” at Genesis 1: 26. "Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. …” With his lack of modern science, that Genesis author knew the point in creation where God shared Himself with two human creatures biblically known as Adam and Eve. They are in the likeness of God – this means that their very humanity has a spiritual principle (soul) so that they can communicate with God, creature to Creator and Creator to creature.
Returning to the theistic model of evolution, we find that some of the horizontal tree branches started as a twig. Catholicism sees the human twig as Adam and Eve. The difference is that these two unusual beings have the power to live beyond every winter, that is, they have the power to live beyond bodily death.
These two human beings, like other living organisms will need food to live (recall the Garden of Eden) and they will have moral standards to govern their interactions with each other and their interaction with God. Consequently, there would be harmony in their lives. To insure that the human species propagated by Adam and Eve would continue without producing other species in the “population” manner of the evolution model (common ancestor populations evolving into separate new populations), God originated our special species in just two first human beings. Their material anatomy would continue to live according to their own stable human nature. The difference is that Adam and Eve’s matter (material anatomy) is animated, that is brought into life, by God’s immediate creation of their rational spiritual soul.
This profound unity of body and soul is beyond any other branch in the evolution model. It is because of its spiritual soul, that the body made of matter becomes a living human person. (Information source. Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 355-357; 364-366; and 1730-1732)
The evolutionist can examine all of nature. There are assumptions used in the evolution model which need correcting. When it comes to examining our human image in the mirror, all of us need to focus on our uniqueness because we are in the image of our Creator. Being in His image, we alone are called to share in His life by knowledge and love on planet earth and in joy eternal in the presence of the Beatific Vision. This is the reason why we are the exception on evolution’s tree of life.
Links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
For additional information about our exceptional nature, study paragraphs 355-421.
And then meditate on John 3: 16.
W
wmw
Guest
Allow me to introduce some new developments in the science of evolution. I’m doing this not to argue any side of any argument, but to provide some facts that are interesting and may become more a part of this discussion. Though my pea brain doesn’t see any viewpoint is favored by it.
There has been a longstanding problem that we as humans have quite a lot of neanderthal DNA coding within us. A rather difficult theory that humans and neanderthals had had some cross breeding after being seperate species for many thousands of years is off the table and never really had found much traction anyway for all the difficulties. The new thought is that much of our DNA, among primates anyway, are very much alike. We’ve all heard the high percentage of DNA we share with Chimps for example. Sciencetists are postulating that this is more the case than was believed. That largely all the primates carry the DNA that could grow into any of the primates, we stay a particular species because of the specific sections that are active. This leads to a theory of easier evolutionary changes at least within families of species and less about a whole new set of DNA code being rewritten into a species within this grouping by large amounts of mutation.
There has been a longstanding problem that we as humans have quite a lot of neanderthal DNA coding within us. A rather difficult theory that humans and neanderthals had had some cross breeding after being seperate species for many thousands of years is off the table and never really had found much traction anyway for all the difficulties. The new thought is that much of our DNA, among primates anyway, are very much alike. We’ve all heard the high percentage of DNA we share with Chimps for example. Sciencetists are postulating that this is more the case than was believed. That largely all the primates carry the DNA that could grow into any of the primates, we stay a particular species because of the specific sections that are active. This leads to a theory of easier evolutionary changes at least within families of species and less about a whole new set of DNA code being rewritten into a species within this grouping by large amounts of mutation.
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edwest2
Guest
The Human Genome is still poorly understood, along with what was once called, without evidence, “junk DNA.”
sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/12/131212142151.htm
sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140123142029.htm
There is some interpretation bias going on as well.
Peace,
Ed
W
wmw
Guest
Right, therefore there is no sense in building a theology on something that’s so totally up in the air as evolutionary science.
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