Being Catholic is whatever I think it is for me

  • Thread starter Thread starter untruestory
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
U

untruestory

Guest
The mother of my children and half the parents of the students I volunteer with hold this position. They often object that Catholic moral teaching and things such as the necessities of attending Mass or confession aren’t objectively true.

I’m having a very difficult time addressing this in a pastoral way with kids, parents, or the mother of my children. What our Catechism says isn’t very persuasive and I’m usually accused of being judgmental or legalistic.

About me:
Single
Convert of 8 years
Father of 2 teens
I lead faith formation/confirmation prep for 10th graders
 
In my limited experience of Sunday school this position is the norm and It’s very hard to talk about weekly mass attendance without being accused of being judgemental. Maybe try to talk about why these things are so important to you.
 
What does your pastor say? I’d discuss with him how to teach the dual concepts of a properly fired conscience (conscience being a widely misunderstood topic) and the necessity of applying these concepts to oneself without presuming to correct others in a way that is not a spiritual work of mercy.

You do want to teach these things in a way that he pre-approves, so he’ll back up what you teach if there are complaints. That will lead to the least amount of avoidable confusion and the least unnecessary and counter-productive drama.
 
untruestory said:
The mother of my children and half the parents of the students I volunteer with hold this position. They often object that Catholic moral teaching and things such as the necessities of attending Mass or confession aren’t objectively true.

I’m having a very difficult time addressing this in a pastoral way with kids, parents, or the mother of my children. What our Catechism says isn’t very persuasive and I’m usually accused of being judgmental or legalistic.

About me:
Single
Convert of 8 years
Father of 2 teens
I lead faith formation/confirmation prep for 10th graders
Click to expand...
We use the Baltimore Catechism #3 which is more clear and direct on such things.
Most of the families and children do not have an understanding of the basics of Catholicism. Pastors have not wanted to teach it. You’re in a tough situation but you’re taking a very needed role. It may be the last chance the kids have to hear the truth about such things.
 
Isn’t this the good thing about Catholicism, that we can use our own conscience and not be forced to think or do things just to please other people?
 
simpleas said:
Isn’t this the good thing about Catholicism, that we can use our own conscience and not be forced to think or do things just to please other people?
Click to expand...
Only if that conscience is properly formed. If your conscience is malformed due to your unwillingness to accept correction, then you are liable for it. Conscience is not a blank slate, “I can do whatever I want because I think its okay,” thing. It is a muscle that must be exercised properly, else it will atrophy and die.
 
Baltimore Catechism and the Catechism of the Catholic Church should be used.

Every member of the class should have a copy of the Baltimore Catechism.

The full Catechism of the Catholic Church should be in class for available reference.
 
I think we can all agree that you are Catholic if you are baptized Catholic. You could go beyond that, of course, with baptism of desire, blood, etc. But that’s a minimum.

Theoretically, Catholics all believe a common core of doctrines. But in practice, they don’t. Take the real presence in the Eucharist: does the bread and wine become transformed into the actual body and blood of Christ? The Church says yes, and this is a core doctrine of Catholicism. But take a look at a poll, for example this one: uscatholic.org/blog/201305/knowing-believing-and-sometimes-not-knowing-believing-too-27323 and you can see that 33% of people who identify themselves as Catholic don’t know the Church’s teaching on the subject, and they themselves don’t believe it. Another 4% know the teaching, but they still don’t believe it.

Take a look at “American Catholics in Transition,” which goes into the evolving beliefs of Catholics on a variety of topics.

Beyond the core doctrines, as you can easily see by reading any one of these threads on these forums, Catholics disagree on practically everything (including who is a Catholic!), and yet we all identify ourselves as Catholics. Even cardinals disagree on some issues, as you could see publicly in the Synod of the Family last year. And then there is the matter of emphasis: clearly what Pope Francis emphasizes is not what Benedict emphasized.

All religions have the same problem: Who is a member and who is not? Adolf Hitler was baptized and confirmed as a Catholic. Can you lose your membership by evil acts? The Church says baptism leaves an indelible mark on the soul. And who exactly defines what is evil enough to make you a non-member?

So with all this in mind, it seems to me best to accept anyone who was baptized a Catholic as a Catholic. God will sort it out in the end. It’s not your job to sort it out.
 
untruestory said:
The mother of my children and half the parents of the students I volunteer with hold this position. They often object that Catholic moral teaching and things such as the necessities of attending Mass or confession aren’t objectively true.

I’m having a very difficult time addressing this in a pastoral way with kids, parents, or the mother of my children. What our Catechism says isn’t very persuasive and I’m usually accused of being judgmental or legalistic.

About me:
Single
Convert of 8 years
Father of 2 teens
I lead faith formation/confirmation prep for 10th graders
Click to expand...
Have them watch the Cardinal Arinze video on the abortion question he was asked – then start a discussion. Cardinal Arinze always gets to the point, and his friendly demeanor makes him tough to call anything but nice.

youtu.be/l36_zr9umdM
 
untruestory said:
The mother of my children and half the parents of the students I volunteer with hold this position. They often object that Catholic moral teaching and things such as the necessities of attending Mass or confession aren’t objectively true.

I’m having a very difficult time addressing this in a pastoral way with kids, parents, or the mother of my children. What our Catechism says isn’t very persuasive and I’m usually accused of being judgmental or legalistic.

About me:
Single
Convert of 8 years
Father of 2 teens
I lead faith formation/confirmation prep for 10th graders
Click to expand...
One of the best way to get someone to see through such silly views is to teach them, to induce in them, and help guide them through, some reflective thinking. Socrates’ and Scholastic methods are designed to do just this. Most of them hold these views simply because they are the popular views, after all.

Christi pax.
 
ProdglArchitect said:
Only if that conscience is properly formed. If your conscience is malformed due to your unwillingness to accept correction, then you are liable for it. Conscience is not a blank slate, “I can do whatever I want because I think its okay,” thing. It is a muscle that must be exercised properly, else it will atrophy and die.
Click to expand...
I wonder when a persons conscience is considered properly formed, I thought it would be when you are classed as a good Catholic person, one who doesn’t do as the world does, the conscience prompts a no no to a certain situation, but sometimes our conscience doesn’t always work, or there would be many less sinners.

At some point in our lives we decided upon things by ourselves, if we didn’t we would be following a dictatorship in fear.
 
Erikaspirit16 said:
I think we can all agree that you are Catholic if you are baptized Catholic. You could go beyond that, of course, with baptism of desire, blood, etc. But that’s a minimum.

Theoretically, Catholics all believe a common core of doctrines. But in practice, they don’t. Take the real presence in the Eucharist: does the bread and wine become transformed into the actual body and blood of Christ? The Church says yes, and this is a core doctrine of Catholicism. But take a look at a poll, for example this one: uscatholic.org/blog/201305/knowing-believing-and-sometimes-not-knowing-believing-too-27323 and you can see that 33% of people who identify themselves as Catholic don’t know the Church’s teaching on the subject, and they themselves don’t believe it. Another 4% know the teaching, but they still don’t believe it.

Take a look at “American Catholics in Transition,” which goes into the evolving beliefs of Catholics on a variety of topics.

Beyond the core doctrines, as you can easily see by reading any one of these threads on these forums, Catholics disagree on practically everything (including who is a Catholic!), and yet we all identify ourselves as Catholics. Even cardinals disagree on some issues, as you could see publicly in the Synod of the Family last year. And then there is the matter of emphasis: clearly what Pope Francis emphasizes is not what Benedict emphasized.

All religions have the same problem: Who is a member and who is not? Adolf Hitler was baptized and confirmed as a Catholic. Can you lose your membership by evil acts? The Church says baptism leaves an indelible mark on the soul. And who exactly defines what is evil enough to make you a non-member?

So with all this in mind, it seems to me best to accept anyone who was baptized a Catholic as a Catholic. God will sort it out in the end. It’s not your job to sort it out.
Click to expand...
That’s the problem I think, trying to sort out other peoples lives so everything is almost perfect, yet in reality, it can do the opposite.

It’s a human problem not just a Catholic one.
 
Last year my sister was starting to think about coming back to the Church, but said she was having a hard time swallowing some of the teachings. I told her the Church is big enough and secure enough to give her time and space to grow - she can think what she wants for now, she just can’t teach it. She’ll start getting it as she goes along.

Right now I’m reading Rod Bennett’s The Apostasy that Wasn’t. Footnote LXXXVIII on page 180:
Most important to note: the Church’s officers certainly were not content with baptism alone, except as a starting point, nor indifferent to the content of a man’s religion, as they had so recently proved at Nicaea. The distinction, however, between clergy and laity must be kept firmly in mind;* teachers* were to be vetted with various tests, but the rank and file were given time to grow into their new Faith slowly–just as they are in most churches today, of whatever affiliation, where ordinary individuals are seldom asked to sign a creed or statement of belief.
Click to expand...
 
reggieM said:
We use the Baltimore Catechism #3 which is more clear and direct on such things.
Most of the families and children do not have an understanding of the basics of Catholicism. Pastors have not wanted to teach it. You’re in a tough situation but you’re taking a very needed role. It may be the last chance the kids have to hear the truth about such things.
Click to expand...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^

When teaching Church Teachings, even in the Church, you are going to run into resistance. We are at a point where so many are more formed in their beliefs by the culture than the Church or Scripture, presenting those concepts will be seen as revolutionary, legalistic and judgmental.

Genesis 3:4 *"Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” *

This passage is what is used to define original sin, or separation from God. It has historically been interpreted as “being able to determine good and evil.” Or in another way “I can decide what Church teachings are right or not”.

2Cor5:10 says we will all appear before the judgement seat of Christ to answer for what we have done in the body. Both Good and Evil.

You may start a discussion with them on the correlation between these two verses and what it will mean to them some day.

Good luck!
 
ProdglArchitect said:
Only if that conscience is properly formed. If your conscience is malformed due to your unwillingness to accept correction, then you are liable for it. Conscience is not a blank slate, “I can do whatever I want because I think its okay,” thing. It is a muscle that must be exercised properly, else it will atrophy and die.
Click to expand...
Great analogy. The primacy of conscience has been used by Catholics to justify a whole bunch of immoral behavior.
 
ChurchSoldier said:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^

When teaching Church Teachings, even in the Church, you are going to run into resistance. We are at a point where so many are more formed in their beliefs by the culture than the Church or Scripture, presenting those concepts will be seen as revolutionary, legalistic and judgmental.
Click to expand...
Thanks and agreed.
I just started a thread from a quote given by the bishop of Oakland - sounded very familiar:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=14880279#post14880279
 
We have effectively lost a generation, but that doesn’t mean we have to lose another one. Equally as important as what the Church teaches is understanding why She does. In faith formation I think kids should be encouraged to ask questions, and be given the tools to get the authentic Catholic answers, because they are always logical and compelling. Else they will ask questions outside of religious education, and the people answering them won’t be Catholics.

I agree on talking to your pastor. If it’s other teachers who are “cafeteria” types then they will teach the wrong things, and they won’t bother going for the rationale of course. Your pastor needs to put a foot down. This is understandably hard because these are obviously volunteer positions and it’s hard enough to find enough people to teach. But if they are teaching the wrong things, what’s the point? I don’t have a solution to this, but I do get the challenge… 🤷
 
ChurchSoldier said:
We are at a point where so many are more formed in their beliefs by the culture than the Church or Scripture
Click to expand...
True, because they rely on the culture to answer their questions about Catholicism. I know this first hand. It wasn’t until I was bothered enough to go straight to the source that I began to understood the logic behind Church teachings. This goes beyond the Cathecism, it goes to our priests and to the intellectual curiosity to search the multitude of Catholic literature to find the answers you seek.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top