Being Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox, is not essential to being Christian.

[spn82756]

What I find distressing is that post 147 has been TOTALLY ignored.

 

[dnu]

There is a gross difference between rejecting Christ and never having a proper opportunity to accept Christ.

To say that a Muslim, by being Muslim, automatically “rejects Christ” is to ignore Sociology, Psychology, etc. etc.

Only God knows the heart, and only God can know if that person would truly accept Christ or not if they had a legitimate opportunity.

The same goes for Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. etc.

It is somewhere around paragraph 846-848ish or the Catechism.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

The fact is that the CC has never said that. Some posters may…but that is not the teaching of the CC.

CCC **818 **“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

Therefore, non-Catholic Christians who were never Catholic in the first place are better off than those Catholics who become Protestants. So, what’s the status of those ex-Catholics who become very hard core Protestants in the very definition of the word Protestant? I think the Anathemas of Trent do not apply to those who do not have Catholic roots, right?

 

[spn82756]

There is a gross difference between rejecting Christ and never having a proper opportunity to accept Christ.

To say that a Muslim, by being Muslim, automatically “rejects Christ” is to ignore Sociology, Psychology, etc. etc.

Only God knows the heart, and only God can know if that person would truly accept Christ or not if they had a legitimate opportunity.

The same goes for Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. etc.

It is somewhere around paragraph 846-848ish or the Catechism.

I won’t argue with not having had to opportunity to know Christ and the possibility of salvation. But…islam is a religion founded on a man who claimed to have received his message from Gabriel. The same Gabriel that announced to Mary that she would have the Son of God. The Word Incarnate. The second gabriel could not have been of God…but rather of the only being with great joy in the rejection of Christ as the Son of God.

 

[spn82756]

Therefore, non-Catholic Christians who were never Catholic in the first place are better off than those Catholics who become Protestants. So, what’s the status of those ex-Catholics who become very hard core Protestants in the very definition of the word Protestant? I think the Anathemas of Trent do not apply to those who do not have Catholic roots, right?

I am not a theologian. I know that for what ever reason they have left the Church that I believe has the fullest knowledge available on earth. They are still brothers and sisters in Christ.

Now…to become protestant and to denigrate the Catholic Church to the point of calling it NOT Christian…then they are greatly misguided. Is that what you mean by hard core protestant. Jack Chick type protestants?

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

I won’t argue with not having had to opportunity to know Christ and the possibility of salvation. But…islam is a religion founded on a man who claimed to have received his message from Gabriel. The same Gabriel that announced to Mary that she would have the Son of God. The Word Incarnate. The second gabriel could not have been of God…but rather of the only being with great joy in the rejection of Christ as the Son of God.

I guess most modern day Catholics are not Augustinian or Thomist in Catholic theology instead embracing a blend of Protestant Arminianism, right?

 

[dnu]

Therefore, non-Catholic Christians who were never Catholic in the first place are better off than those Catholics who become Protestants. So, what’s the status of those ex-Catholics who become very hard core Protestants in the very definition of the word Protestant? I think the Anathemas of Trent do not apply to those who do not have Catholic roots, right?

This is where God takes over. If a Protestant lives their entire life being told that the Catholic Church is wrong, they’re fed anti-Catholic propoganda there entire lives, etc. etc., then it is solely God responsiblity to determine if that individuals actually “rejected” the Catholic Church, or if that person simply never had the chance to know the truth.

I don’t believe God would ever punish someone for not accepting something they never had an honest and serious opportunity to accept.

God doesn’t automatically send people to hell because they didn’t die Catholic…he examines the whole house before comdemning it.

Unless he is a Communist Tyrant, in which case, I’ll go back to agnosticism

 

[spn82756]

I guess most modern day Catholics are not Augustinian or Thomist in Catholic theology instead embracing a blend of Protestant Arminianism, right?

I wouldn’t agree with that. Catholic theology came before Arminianism…although they both reject the Calvanist theology. BTW…I have good friends of both persuasions. We respect each other as Christians.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

Hey…I have an idea! Instead of beating up on each other…why don’t we go to the non-Catholic section and spread the Gospel to muslims. They are the ones we should be trying to convince. They have referred to all of us…CATHOLIC…PROTESTANT …ORTHODOX all as blasphemers! Why beat up on each other???

Post 147 above. So, Muslims need the gospel too!

 

[spn82756]

This is where God takes over. If a Protestant lives their entire life being told that the Catholic Church is wrong, they’re fed anti-Catholic propoganda there entire lives, etc. etc., then it is solely God responsiblity to determine if that individuals actually “rejected” the Catholic Church, or if that person simply never had the chance to know the truth.

I don’t believe God would ever punish someone for not accepting something they never had an honest and serious opportunity to accept.

God doesn’t automatically send people to hell because they didn’t die Catholic…he examines the whole house before comdemning it.

Unless he is a Communist Tyrant, in which case, I’ll go back to agnosticism

Well put!

 

[spn82756]

Post 147 above. So, Muslims need the gospel too!

They are lost souls without it!

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

I wouldn’t agree with that. Catholic theology came before Arminianism…although they both reject the Calvanist theology. BTW…I have good friends of both persuasions. We respect each other as Christians.

Okay, let’s replace Arminianism with Pelagism, or a modified form of it. I think Catholic Saint Augustine had much better theology in regards to these issues.

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

They are lost souls without it!

Not according to the Catholic Catechism…

 

[spn82756]

Not according to the Catholic Catechism…

What can I say. It was promulgated by a pope who kissed the koran . As much as I respect him…I don’t understand why he did that??? I don’t consider myself to be a pig or a dog. What can I say?

 

[spn82756]

Okay, let’s replace Arminianism with Pelagism, or a modified form of it. I think Catholic Saint Augustine had much better theology in regards to these issues.

Original sin is quite a subject. Even as close as the CC and Orthodox Churches are…there are different interpretations of how it is applied to us. Hence one of the reasons why the Orthodox do not see the Immaculate Conception as necessary. At least that’s my understanding. One sees it as an inhereted sin…while the other as a tendency to sin. If I’m wrong…I would like to be corrected.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;6381639:

How do you know what arrangements God has made for those who through no fault of their own have never heard of Jesus Christ?

Hey, that’s Catholic language and I thought you belong to that other One True Church.

I didn’t realize it sounded like Catholic language. It’s actually the language of C.S. Lewis whom some consider to be fairly Orthodox (at least occasionally) in his thinking. On the question of judging others, he writes:

Here is another thing that used to puzzle me. Is it not frightfully unfair that this new life should be confined to people who have heard of Christ and been able to believe in Him? But the truth is God has not told us what His arrangements about the other people are. We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him.

From Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis (HarperCollins, 2001) Page 64

Since I’m into that wrath doctrine, I don’t see how others are okay at no fault of their own.

Perhaps you should consider giving wrath doctrine the heave–ho?

Are sinners condemned after they hear of Jesus Christ and reject Him?

Who could say?

So, what gives, are you a wanna be Catholic stuck in the Orthodox Church?

I left the Evangelical world behind at the end of 2005 and I’ve had quite a spiritual battle since then. But I now believe that Holy Orthodoxy holds the fullness of truth and I am to be chrismated this coming Pascha. However, if Holy Orthodoxy did not exist, I’d certainly be a Catholic.

I’m not anti–visible institutional church.

But you’re not exactly for it, either, right?

All Christians need to be in a visible church.

Is that a biblical notion or just your opinion?

Cordially,
Mick

 

[spn82756]

Originally Posted by One in Christ forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Are sinners condemned after they hear of Jesus Christ and reject Him?

Who could say?

I think we have a pretty good answer to that question. Since we are all sinners…how can you possibly know about Christ and reject him and find salvation?

 

[One_in_Christ_1]

Perhaps you should consider giving wrath doctrine the heave–ho?

In my opinion, that wrath of God thing is heavily taught in the Old Testament and also in the New Testament. If I give up wrath, will you ask me to give up the doctrine of Hell next? What’s the 2ND coming all about but the day of wrath and judgement? if we give up wrath, then what did Jesus bore on the cross?

 

[SSTeacher]

In my opinion, that wrath of God thing is heavily taught in the Old Testament and also in the New Testament. If I give up wrath, will you ask me to give up the doctrine of Hell next? What’s the 2ND coming all about but the day of wrath and judgement? if we give up wrath, then what did Jesus bore on the cross?

One in Christ,

I’m getting bored with this thread so I’m now vacating but please know that I’ve enjoyed our exchanges. I wish you well.

Convivially,
Mick

 

[SonofMonica]

One in Christ,

I’m getting bored with this thread so I’m now vacating but please know that I’ve enjoyed our exchanges. I wish you well.

Convivially,
Mick

I’ll second that. Peace of Christ.