Yes but he refers specifically to the ecclesial sphere, not the temporal sphere. Obviously within the ecclesial sphere, the clergy have the highest calling. However did Bl JP II claim that being CELIBATE is the highest form of life? Check Theology of the Body for his support of marriage and children as a highest calling in the temporal sphere…which is where we are and maybe we could get back to something related to the thread?
Oh I guess I’m a heretic then…but how about getting back to the thread. I suspect there is nothing in the Council of Trent claiming that being gay is in your genes. Let me know!
Please explain what that is supposed to mean.
The etiology of homosexuality is irrelevant to morality.
Now that is truly non-sensical. Isn’t the theory that homosexuality is ‘natural’ that it’s “genetic” that it’s inherent and unchangeable? Isn’t THAT the real basis for all of the homosexualist activism? After all if we can’t change “who we are” how can anyone claim it’s immoral to act upon these genetically based desires? Huh? You speak consistently in a pro gay activism manner so you should actually claim the cause of homosexuality IS absolutely relevant when discussing the morality of the actions.
If H is found to be genetic is some cases, wouldn’t that fall under the category of “genetic disorders?” I don’t fear finding a genetic link, although it seems apparent from what I’ve read that it is, at the very least, largely a learned disposition and behavior, A genetic disorder is “natural” only in the fact that it occurs in nature, like for instance, cancer, not that it is the intended design of nature. Do you agree?
Yes, I guess a better word would be “normal” rather than natural which has numerous connotations. I recently watched a program featuring a psychiatrist who specialized in counseling homosexuals who were trying to get out of “the life.” He believes the cause is mostly nurture versus nature, that most of the males had specific and consistent experiences and incidents that seemed to direct them toward expression of same sex attraction. My own experience with homosexuals which is of course anecdotal but is extensive and quite intimate also supports this claim. Of all of the homosexuals I knew well, only one said he was never attracted to women, from puberty on. All of the rest had had close relationships with women, that included an active sex life, sometimes marriage and children. But at some point the urge to have sexual relationships with men became stronger and either they left the heterosexual world completely or moved in and out of both worlds.
This whole question about which love is “higher” is silly. To show that, consider John’s relationship with Jesus. Surely we would not say that their relationship was less dignified or deeply meaningful than a marriage, but we do not thereby claim that people should stop getting married and pursue close friendships with people of the same sex instead.
It’s actually been a while since I have heard anyone actually claim it is genetic (as opposed to conservatives claiming gay people claim it is genetic).
Sure friendship can’t fill carnal desire, but desires of the flesh are not so bad to deny.This whole question about which love is “higher” is silly. To show that, consider John’s relationship with Jesus. Surely we would not say that their relationship was less dignified or deeply meaningful than a marriage, but we do not thereby claim that people should stop getting married and pursue close friendships with people of the same sex instead.
It’s not an either-or proposition. We were made for one-flesh union, and we were made for deep and meaningful same-sex friendship. We just weren’t made for one-flesh union with our same-sex friend.
Anyone who says “marriage is all you need” is a liar and a cheat. Anyone who says that a same-sex relationship can fill the gap left by a lack of a marriage is a liar and a cheat, too.
Celibacy requires a special grace. It is praised over marriage not because it includes meaningful friendships among people of the same sex, but because it includes the deep and uncompromising pursuit of the living God.
David said that his love with Jonathan surpassed the love of women. This should not be surprising, since David was a womanizer, and his wives probably had it in for him.
I wouldn’t say that friendship surpasses marital love, but I wouldn’t say the opposite either. How can you compare two things that are so fundamentally different?
I guess you didn’t read the OP then since that is the reason for the thread…that there was supposedly some scientific evidence that “being gay is in your genes” Take a look at the title of the thread. That might be a clue that indeed some do make this claim. Certainly the gay activists base much of their philosophy of equivalence on the specious theory that people are “born this way” and thus to deny them “marriage” or to deny them the “right” to procure a child in some artificial manner is working against an inborn, unchangeable and inherent characteristic.
Really there is such a thing?I have read the OP, the thread has since moved on. There a genes that appear to raise the probability that a person will be gay, there are also ones for left handedness (which is mostly not genetic).I guess you didn’t read the OP then since that is the reason for the thread…that there was supposedly some scientific evidence that “being gay is in your genes” Take a look at the title of the thread. That might be a clue that indeed some do make this claim. Certainly the gay activists base much of their philosophy of equivalence on the specious theory that people are “born this way” and thus to deny them “marriage” or to deny them the “right” to procure a child in some artificial manner is working against an inborn, unchangeable and inherent characteristic.
Mendelian gay gene
Since you don’t appear to believe “being gay is in your genes” why are you arguing with those who agree with you?
No the thread has not “moved on” and in fact derailing it will get you a little note from the Moderator. If you think we’ve dispensed with any argument that being gay is genetic, perhaps the thread has run out.
I see people on this forum equating/confusing “biological” and “genetic” on an almost daily basis, so Joie’s statement that “A lack of a direct genetic cause does not disprove a biological origin” is in no way a straw man - on the contrary, this seems to be a very common misunderstanding.
That is your opinion. I have also heard from psychiatrists who specialize in working with those battling SSA or other sexual sins that there are more ex gays than gays. No one should be forced into any kind of therapy unless they are a harm to themselves or others. However to demonize or make illegal a therapy that some wish to try and that has been effective in some cases is also ridiculous. I’ve been involved as a Board member and volunteer in several drug and alcohol treatment programs. If we were to shut down all such programs because the vast majority of our clients either do not become clean and sober or do not remain clean and sober for life, there would be no clinics left in the country.
It is not my opinion; it is scientific consensus, supported by a vast amount of empirical data and clinical experience. On the other hand, the opinions of those who still practice this highly harmful form of “therapy” are only supported by ideology.
My friend, Jesus is not impressed that you do not want others to heal in His name.It is not my opinion; it is scientific consensus, supported by a vast amount of empirical data and clinical experience. On the other hand, the opinions of those who still practice this highly harmful form of “therapy” are only supported by ideology.
But I agree, if anyone wants to pursue this form of treatment of their own free will, it should not be outlawed, just as I’d defend people’s right to seek homeopathy any day. But I want neither homeopaths, “reparative therapists” or other kind of quacks to have any kind of credentials as legitimate doctors.
That said, at least homeopathy is harmless, while “reparative therapy” is not; I shall rethink my stance. Thank you - while I’m sure it was not your intention, I had not thought of that before
So you’re able to speak for Him now? I’m impressed.
And no professionally licensed therapist (social worker, counselor, psychiatrist, psychologist, Marriage and Family Counselor) is using reparative “therapy” or any efforts to “change” sexual orientation- at least they aren’t openly as doing so is grounds for disciplinary action, including the revoking of said license.It is not my opinion; it is scientific consensus, supported by a vast amount of empirical data and clinical experience. On the other hand, the opinions of those who still practice this highly harmful form of “therapy” are only supported by ideology.
I didn’t know it could actually in and of itself cause revocation of license - nice to know. As I said, people should of course be allowed to provide and buy whatever service they want, within limits. But some services are incompatible with having a license in a medical profession.
Indeed - I have yet to speak to a priest (or bishop, deacon, brother or sister), medical professional or not, who defends “reparative therapy” or even thinks sexual orientation can be changed willingly.
Further evidence of how far we have gotten from God. We are now indoctrinating our children and prohibiting their healing. Jesus is not impressed with you guys either, but at least you all think you are great. See how far that will get you.
Look I am not any kind of champion for reparative therapy nor do I know how this differs from other counseling or other therapies for those with SSA. What I do find ridiculous is the double standard when drug/alcohol treatments and other psychiatric treatment that has less than fabulous results continue apace while a specific therapy applied to homosexuals is treated like snake charming, shut down, licenses revoked etc. I’ve heard interviews with gays and Lesbians who have left the gay life and while a few of the usual suspects on this list always claim they are lying to themselves or to others, if someone tells me that through treatment, counseling, or medication he no longer engages in homosexual sex, drugs, alcohol or whatever demon he’s fighting, I see no reason to disbelieve them over someone who apparently has a vested interest in promoting continued immersion in what I see as an unhealthy and self destructive lifestyle.