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Rin
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LisaA: The reason “reparative therapy” is frowned upon is not merely a lack of efficiency, but the fact that it does more harm than good. People often need therapy to deal with trauma from “reparative therapy”… If a drug treatment program had similar results, it would also be prohibited the same way.
Debating against someone who just repeats the same few, flawed and repeatedly debunked arguments, flavored with ad hominem attacks and virtually every other textbook fallacy known to man is kind of tiring. In addition, your constant attempts to paint other, faithful and orthodox Catholics as “members” of the gay “lobby” just because they don’t agree with your rather odd interpretation of Scripture and Tradition is unsympathetic, to say the least. I’m sure you are of good will and want the best for people, but your style really doesn’t do you much credit.
Are you even able to debate without using suppression techniques and personal attacks along the lines of “Jesus is not impressed with you”, “you are very confused” and worse?
Debating against someone who just repeats the same few, flawed and repeatedly debunked arguments, flavored with ad hominem attacks and virtually every other textbook fallacy known to man is kind of tiring. In addition, your constant attempts to paint other, faithful and orthodox Catholics as “members” of the gay “lobby” just because they don’t agree with your rather odd interpretation of Scripture and Tradition is unsympathetic, to say the least. I’m sure you are of good will and want the best for people, but your style really doesn’t do you much credit.
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LisaA
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Perhaps but I think one of the issues is that many think the attack/prohibition against reparative therapy is extended to EVERY form of therapy, counseling or other medical assistance for those who wish to escape the gay’Lesbian lifestyle. There do appear to be methods that help people who wish to be helped and I suspect that those who have a vested interest in supporting the gay lifestyle don’t want anyone else to leave “the tribe.” If you’ve ever known a Jehovah’s Witness who left the Witnesses, they are literally mentally tortured for having departed. I think those in the gay world do not want anyone to ‘escape’ lest it be known that it’s not all beer and skittles. FWIW by coincidence I learned that a “friendly associate” whom I’ve known for five or six years told me that she was a Lesbian, had bought into the Lesbian life in her twenties and escaped as she said, pursued by the “pink furies” who were aghast at her rejection of this world. She said she has no interest in men and as a Catholic is remaining celibate. She said “I’m like a dry drunk. I have to avoid backsliding by going back to that world.” I didn’t ask if she sought therapy or simply walked away “cold turkey” but the reality is that some people move in and out of this world and should be supported for making the decision if that’s what they wish.
Lisa
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Catolico65
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You are quite confused about Scripture. Worse, it is people like you that are enabling our children to be indoctrinated, which is worrysome from a salvation perspective to say the least. Still, Jesus will forgive us if we ask but we need to recognize we have a problem. Try it, I do it all the time.
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Rin
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LisaA: There is to my knowledge no prohibition against terapy to help someone stay celibate (for any reason) - the prohibitions are against “orientation change” therapy, which has proved to be very harmful, over decades. “There could be some other technique” is pulling at straws.
That said, yes, some gays look down on celibate gays. I know people who have been called traitors for choosing celibacy. Yet, “gays” don’t do that. Some gays do. They’re no more homogenuous than straight people. In general, my impression is that celibate gays are fully accepted by others.
That said, yes, some gays look down on celibate gays. I know people who have been called traitors for choosing celibacy. Yet, “gays” don’t do that. Some gays do. They’re no more homogenuous than straight people. In general, my impression is that celibate gays are fully accepted by others.
Lol… Thank you, I needed a giggle before going to bed.
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JamesCaruso
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Rin, am I mistaken or do you use the term “orientation” as if it were a kind of natural or inviolable trait that we have no business messing with, as to do so may cause great harm?
I see most cases of same sex attraction born out of extreme heterosexual sexual frustration for one reason or another (maybe inability to find a mate of the opposite sex due to personality, looks, opportunity, or other reason) perhaps coupled with a same-sex encounter(s) in early life. I see such persons turning toward same-sex sex as a possible remedy for their lonely, sexually-unfulfilled lives, lives they feel entitled to, without which they are not “normal”, which seems to be a popular notion in our culture. In the course of steeping themselves in perverted (my opinion) thoughts of same sex fulfillment, and experimentation when occasions arise, they become hooked, just as a person who constantly indulges in pornographic material.
The “orientation” obtained by thus steeping themselves in same sex thoughts and experimentation, should be reversible, perhaps painfully, perhaps traumatically, since if it was obtained by a process of degeneration it should likewise be reversible by a process of regeneration. If this is what reparative therapy means, it would seem to have merit, even if it is more often unsuccessful, or even if it often results in some degree of harm. From a Catholic moral point of view, there is great harm in continuing same-sex sex, so the risk of a certain level of harm could be thought acceptable. OTOH, poorly administered therapy might make the person even more hopeless than before, and that should be avoided at all costs. But there seems to be an inappropriate prejudice, from what you’re said, that the medical/psychiatric/psychological professions would consider any such attempt at changing a person’s orientation to be unacceptable without a case specific evaluation of the particular situation and the specific procedures followed.
Your thoughts would be appreciated.
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SMGS127
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.No…that’s not how it usually is. When I was about 15, my mom got me a sports magazine (Sports Illustrated, ESPN: the Magazine, something like that), and inside they had a full poster centerfold of Maria Sharapova. I remember distinctly thinking like “woah
.” I had never been physically attracted to guys, and it really bugged me actually, since most of my friends were already dating and enjoying themselves and I didn’t really care about dating. As I kept getting older, the “woah” reaction became stronger, to girls on TV, IRL, etc. I won’t say I ever got to a straight dude’s level [you guys seem to have weird hypersexualities, no offense], but I’ve just always been attracted to girls. I dated a few guys, mostly to pretend like I was into them/hide my attraction to girls, but I’ve never had any physical attraction to guys. Once I was comfortable coming out, I was actively lesbian for quite a few years, until I converted to Catholicism. It only took a few months from my first Mass for Christ to knock me in the head (figuratively!!) enough for me to realize what I had been doing. But yeah, no trauma with men or anything. Just a constant attraction to girls. Just because I’m more prudent about it now (avoiding shows that could lead to unwanted attractions, ignoring VS commercials, etc.) doesn’t mean that the attractions are gone.I don’t know why people think that SSAs are so foreign and crazy. Your OSAs weren’t caused by trauma from members of your own sex
. It makes no sense to think SSAs would be caused by trauma from the opposite sex.
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Hopey
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Thank you for sharing that, SMGS.
No…that’s not how it usually is. When I was about 15, my mom got me a sports magazine (Sports Illustrated, ESPN: the Magazine, something like that), and inside they had a full poster centerfold of Maria Sharapova. I remember distinctly thinking like “woah
I don’t know why people think that SSAs are so foreign and crazy. Your OSAs weren’t caused by trauma from members of your own sex
It is not uncommon for girls/boys to view a beautiful person of the same sex and feel “something”. Although I would debate whether it isn’t admiration for that person or a quality you would like, the person has to discern this on their own. This is also where I believe people can be influenced into certain types of behaviors, experiment (which one can become so confused they can not tell really what they feel etc). I also believe being a female, our hormones can play a big part in what we are attracted to/not or NOT AT ALL. We are complex.
Regarding the issue of abuse I must comment. It is becoming well documented that abuse can cause some things (father/mother wound - sexual abuse as a child - esp if the child “likes it” whatever “it” may be - or I should say grows to like it).
I know of two that have SSA that it would benefit them greatly if they could get to the root of their problems (hate) toward one parent of the same sex. It oozes out like an infected wound. One is proud that his dad is disgusted with his behaviors.
BUT, I do hope the science continues behind this because there are those who acknowledge having good child hoods/great parents and yet, they have SSA. The reason I hope it continues is not so it can allow someone to commit behaviors that are not good, but for the person to come to a peace within themselves with the things they can not change. That meaning, they have determined it is something real, not caused by something that was done to them or they did (experiment and like it).
The Church doesn’t denounce the science because they know it can be valuable to a person in seeking holiness. When a person can honestly sit down and say I have done everything there is, and yet THIS still exists, it is a cross that God has giving me to bear and I will not be overcome by it. Acceptance.
Now, the secular world it not going to use it that way. To me it is similar to the science behind abortion/sonograms.
There was a push “If only we could SHOW them it was really a baby, then RvW would be overturned!”. Not exactly. It does help those pregnant in some cases, but RvW is still alive and legal.
Those are my thoughts.
The science shouldn’t bother us (not excluding those who come from abusive backgrounds either - acting out of a wound).
It is how we intend to use it (justify actions or come to peace with something we can not change). I am glad the Church views science in general like that also. If they didn’t, science would become a god, an end, which it isn’t meant to be.
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ringil
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If a client expressed a desire to stop having homosexual sex because he/she feels/believes it is wrong a therapist is not going to tell them “No you are gay and need to be having gay sex”
Therapists help clients where they are and help them approach their lives through their own understanding in a way that is meaningful and pro-social for the client themselves.
So, a therapist can talk to a client about a desire to stop having gay sex and can praise them when they have success doing this but they CANNOT attempt to help the client CHANGE their sexual orientation.
See the difference?
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ringil
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I am a licensed mental health professional and your understanding of sexual orientation is deeply flawed.
To what extent homosexuality, once established, is biological, psychological, or social (it’s all of them( is immaterial. Once set- usually in adolescence- it is set. That individual will continue to be attracted to individuals of their own sex- it will not go away.
Now, it is well known that many children do experiment with this behavior in the process of sexual development in the journey to discovering themselves sexually, but in most kids (heterosexual kids) this passes quickly and they grow to a normal heterosexual adulthood.
Most homosexuals remember themselves from an early age (when all kids start noticing attraction) being attracted to those of the same sex and this develops into adulthood. Many of these kids and even adults will attempt dating and even marriage to people of the opposite sex but will not find that fulfilling or deeply distressing.
No one is seduced into homosexuality as an orientation, as no one is seduced to heterosexuality.
Being “steeped in sex”- well, I don’t even know what that means, but again the sexual self develops with development and isn’t “moved or changed” simply due to being exposed to imagery or even abuse.
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ringil
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Your story is very common and typical.
No…that’s not how it usually is. When I was about 15, my mom got me a sports magazine (Sports Illustrated, ESPN: the Magazine, something like that), and inside they had a full poster centerfold of Maria Sharapova. I remember distinctly thinking like “woah
I don’t know why people think that SSAs are so foreign and crazy. Your OSAs weren’t caused by trauma from members of your own sex
God bless you and I will pray for you as carrying the cross of SSA must be very hard.
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livingwordunity
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Hopey
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The one thing that stands out, in which I do not understand and what I see and hear doesn’t square with this, are victims of trauma.
I will see if I can find the link but there was a counselor who was paid to help women who were living together in lesbian relationships work on issues they were having; living in harmony.
The counselor didn’t address their orientation but worked on personal issues (which is what she was supposed to do).
The person who brought the counselor in later tried to sue her for “changing” her lesbians partners orientations.
The counselor couldn’t do that if she wanted to, first off. But the counselor did dig deep into their lives and help them overcome past behaviors/present etc. In doing that, the women did not want to stay in the lesbian relationships and went on to marry the opposite sex.
Then there are those, women that I know of, that have biological issues (hormonal) that aren’t necessarily attracted to the same sex but not interested in the opposite sex, or very little. I have seen some take that as being attracted to the same sex because in discerning, without medical evaluation, they seem more attracted to one than the other. They are influenced by society as this, ssa, has to be what they are experiencing.
Then there are those that from the very beginning have been attracted to the same sex.
It is very complex. That is where the science should help, not hinder, especially if one wants (goal) to marry someone of the opposite sex.
Because there is a trend to take a feeling and run with it, not discern it - or even consider it a disorder - you run into problems with people who are not in the group who may have a genetic predisposition to be attracted to the same sex, act that way.
But the person has to discern these things on their own.
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LisaA
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Look I am not going to argue against your professional opinion but remember it is just your opinion. Psychology is hardly a hard or exact science. All you have to do is look at the history of the DSM, the history of various treatments for different mental conditions and you will see the obvious arbitrariness of your profession’s techniques. Do you not think the “gay lobby” which included the APA President had something to do with the change in categorization of homosexuality? I have little respect for being able to vote something in or out of the DSM, particularly when not accompanied by any sort of authority.
Further your opinion is NOT shared by everyone who counsels homosexuals. I have also listened to programs by licensed psychotherapists who make the opposite claim, that there are a variety of causes, many or most of them environmental in the experience with family and that dynamic when growing up. As to my own experience with gays through lengthy and quite intimate friendships, only ONE claimed never to have been attracted to or want a relationship with women. Like our other poster he said when other boys were looking at girls’ budding breasts and hoping to cop a feel at the school dance, he was repulsed. Interestingly his uncle was very open about being gay and this was long before gay was cool. That did make me wonder about homosexuality running in families like alcoholism runs in my family.
But as for the rest of my gay friends (and a gay cousin) all of them had lengthy and according to them sexually active relationships with women, sometimes for years if not decades. My cousin was particularly interesting as he married his high school sweetheart, had kids bought a house, bought a boat, had the America dream. He came out in his early 40s and like a “middle age crazy” man who has affairs with young women had a series of Twinkies. I think he’s on about the seventh or eighth “relationship” at this point. All are decades younger.
I also disagree that one can’t be seduced into homosexuality. Baloney. You take a young impressionable teen, put him in an exciting environment with older professional men whom he admires and wishes to be like. The excitement, the sexual stimulation far beyond what he gets groping with some girl in the back of a car is intoxicating. And as a licensed therapist surely you know how patterns can be burned into young brains. This is why it’s so dangerous for youth to experiment with alcohol, drugs or smoking. The brain is not developed or ready to make good judgments. I watched time and again as the sharks circled, wooed, lured and enticed young men into this lifestyle, now with the blessing of society.
It will be worse and worse believe me. With all of the single moms, the gender bender role models, the lack of men who demonstrate truly masculine characteristic. Being gay may not be in our genes but it can take over someone’s life just like a genetic characteristic. It is an unhealthy and self destructive pattern and I would hope any counselor would help their patients see that “gay” isn’t very for the most part and they can leave this behind.
Lisa
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Monkey1976
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I honestly don’t understand why therapy to help a person change their orientation is so taboo. If a man wants to change his apparent physical sex to female, the APA applauds that decision. How is changing a desire less traumatic?
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LisaA
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I know, amazing how “orientation” is fixed but the same people making that claim are fine with hormone treatments, plastic surgery and the illusion you can change your DNALisa
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Rin
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Reparative therapy has proved to do harm to the patient.
Sex reassignment has proved to do good to the patient.
It’s that simple.
LisaA: Illusion that you can change your DNA? Now that’s a straw man, if I ever saw one.
Edit: LisaA: It’s also not just “his opinion”. It is the scientific consensus of the entire mental health provider community, in every developed country that I’ve heard of. Saying it’s just “his opinion” is absurd, and intellectually dishonest - a poor cop-out.
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Karrtel
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people distrust mainstream psychologists or mental health ‘professionals’ on homosexuality is because-1. They arrogantly say they’re mental health professionals as though what they say is infallible. 2. They have pro-homosexual biases and are dishonest. Psychology since 1973 in the USA usually has a pro-homosexual bias and not trustworthy. If a psychologist says truth which offends homosexual groups, then it gets condemned by homosexual groups.
If you are going to condemn therapy for homosexuals and lesbians who want to change to heterosexuality then you may as well condemn therapy for drug/drinking problems because such therapy often fails and high relapses. Is it possible for a homosexual or lesbian to change sexual behavior and sexual orientation to heterosexuality? There are gays and lesbians who sincerely believe they changed to heterosexuality and without contrary proof only they know. Saying 1 does not know and that they will not conclude until they are convinced is Okay. The right thing to do is to hope they are right in their belief and that they did change to heterosexuality. However, It is arrogant for psychologists or mental health ‘professionals’ to think they know and condemn by saying they did not change to heterosexuality. It would be rude for a psychologist to condemn an alcoholic who thinks he or she sincerely recovered, yet here people are condemned for saying they believes they recovered from homosexuality.
Homofobia is telling truths, theories and speculations which offend homosexual groups. While they have not conclusively proven homosexuality/lesbianism is inborn genes, homosexual groups often use this theory as definite by saying how they are born this way-which possibly can be the case for some but more studies are needed. But when facts are raised about the link between childhood sex abuse and a kid doing homosexual and lesbian activities in adutlhood, homosexual groups often get offended, condemn it as homofobia. Any facts which show homosexuality/lesbianism to be bad and put negative views on this is condemned. Yes, the theory between a woman smoking during pregnancy and the unborn baby doing homosexual/lesbian conduct in adulthood is not proven and replicated or repeat studies must be done. But the main reason homosexual and lesbian groups are offended by this is theory is because it puts homosexuality negatively by suggesting it is the result of something bad-smoking.
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Monkey1976
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How so?
This is an interesting definition of “good”…
If one can ask a therapist to help them quit smoking, or stop drinking - both things which involve a change of desire - exactly what harm is caused to a patient who asks to have their desire for persons of the same sex changed?
Consensus - yes. Scientific - no. The removal of homosexuality from the DSM had nothing to do with science.
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