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ringil
Guest
I don’t think that the APA “applauds” anything.
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LisaA
Guest
Note Karrtel’s cogent and credible comments. You are expressing your opinion regarding reparative therapy which seems to have a rather broad definition.
You apparently don’t understand the term strawman. People who have sex change procedures CANNOT change their DNA. They can hack off body parts or take hormone therapy but they were conceived as males or females. As one poster noted how ironic that one supposedly cannot change the desire for the same sex which is totally a mental orientation but somehow change something COMPLETELY unchangeable as one’s DNA.
Many hospitals that used to perform sex reassignments have quit doing so. But instead of this ridiculous procedure being completely debunked as far more damaging than any sort of reparative therapy, the term “transgender” now extends to someone who wakes up one morning feeling like a girl and the next morning feeling like a boy.
And you think this kind of baloney is credible or respected?
Lisa
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ringil
Guest
Alcohol abuse and dependency and smoking are addictions. Homosexual activity is not.
We, as Catholics, believe it is sinful, but this in no way touches the work of the mental health professional who does not deal in questions of good or evil, sin or grace.
And again for those who seem to be having problems understanding this- a therapist can encourage a client who desires to stop having homosexual sex if in that context, this promotes their psycho-social well-being. A therapist would actively discourage, or help the client to understand the effects of their actions, if they were, say, having gay sex while in a committed heterosexual relationship. A therapist would have a duty to report the client if they stated they were having gay (or straight) sex with a minor.
A therapist would most definitely empathize with a client who, say, has family or friends telling them- as here- that they can change their sexual orientation. A therapist can help a client who is gay through the process of “coming out”. A therapist can help a client deal with discrimination from micro or macro-level factors in their lives.
A therapist CANNOT seek to assist a client, or promote the notion that sexual orientation can be “changed”. This is unethical and would result in disciplinary action and/or the revoking of that license.
Their are NO, NO, NO professionally licensed therapists ETHICALLY practicing reparative pseudo-therapy, seeking to assist a client in “changing” their sexual orientation, or in telling their client’s who may be having homosexual sex that they are “sinning”.
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Monkey1976
Guest
How do you define “addiction”?
Except that no matter who signs our paychecks, we can never condone, encourage, or assist in another’s sin.
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ringil
Guest
Then why would hundreds of priests, deacons, brothers, and sisters (maybe even a few Bishops) practice as Licensed mental health professionals?
Are you saying that Catholics cannot be a mental health professionals?
That’s what it sounds like.
(I’ll look it up and see if there have been any Cardinals)
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
Ah, so this explains why I started lusting after the pictures of male athletes when I was 11. It was because my little relationship in 4th grade with a little blond girl made me sexually frustrated.
And that whole sexually intimate relationship with a girl that I had when I was a teenager, that must have made me feel sexually frustrated too. I was so lonely that I decided I needed the object of my attraction to have a penis.
This is just all becoming so clear to me now!
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Rin
Guest
No. But I’m getting tired of correcting intellectual dishonesty, so I’ll leave it at that.
I understand it very well, thank you very much. But for your benefit:
“The so called typical “attacking a straw man” implies an adversarial, polemic, or combative debate, and creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent’s proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e., “stand up a straw man”) and then to refute or defeat that false argument, (“knock down a straw man,”) instead of the original proposition.” (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)
You claimed that people think they can change their DNA. And you claim the same in this post. I have not met one, single transgender person who believes they can change their dna. Your claim is a textbook example of a straw man.
Again, not one single transgender individual thinks DNA can be changed. You’ve misunderstood completely.
One, to my knowledge, and it happened under the influence of now (rightfully) discredited dr. Paul McHugh. It was an extremely biased decision.
It has proved to improve quality of life in up to 98% of cases. Suicide rates are still, sadly, higher than in the general population, but lower than among untreated transgender individuals. Reparative therapy, on the other hand, increases, instead of decreases suicide rates.
No, it does not. That is a misrepresentation by right-wing ideologues - again, a textbook example of a straw man.
Your misrepresentations: No.
Real science: Yes.
All that study confirms, is what we already knew: Mortality rates are higher among transgender individuals, even post-op. But as I mentioned above, 98% of patients report improved quality of life, and the suicide risk (and mortality rates) is significantly lower than among transgender individuals who do not receive treatment.
Here are two other outcome studies, in case you want a bigger picture (I also have another one in mind, but no time to look it up right now):
dare.ubvu.vu.nl/bitstream/handle/1871/23255/189321.pdf
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2007.07362.x/abstract
More information, in layman’s terms:
apa.org/monitor/2013/04/transgender.aspx
/sigh
Mental trauma, destroyed families (the “ex-gay” marries then a few years later can’t resist the urge anymore), in some cases physical damage due to “creative” techniques, etc. The list is long.
Conspirational nonsense. But since it has recently been discussed in another thread, by individuals far more knowledgeable than me, that’s all I have to say for now.
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Monkey1976
Guest
Source?
Look at the standard deviations pre and post. Depression - for example - has a pre value of 29.3 ±11.3, and a post value of 22.5 ±8.4. If values pre and post significantly overlap when standard deviation is taken into account, how can an honest researcher claim that there was any significant change?
How does 51 out of 53 patients stating that having a fake penis makes them feel more masculine relate to increased mortality?
Not information, propaganda.
And nothing on that list - nor the list taken as a whole - is unique to therapy to change orientation, but it’s still the only therapy to change desire which is taboo.
It is indeed conspiratorial, as there was indeed an admitted conspiracy.
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Rin
Guest
I have these numbers from a Scandinavian study for which I can’t find an English text. I’m sure there is one, but I’m hard pressed for time right now.
Because there are other studies that show significant change. But there is no doubt that sex reassignment alone is not sufficient treatment. Patients report significantly improved quality of life, but still often need therapy in addition, if nothing else than to deal with the bigoted, hateful bullies who help cause those depressions, give the last push to suicide and so on. This is not propaganda; it is the personal experience of virtually every person who struggles with this. I am ashamed to see the same attitudes flourishing on CAF (to the point of transgender surgery being described as “Frankenstein procedures”) - it is surely not representative of the Church I know and love.
I didn’t say it did. It relates to outcome and life quality, which is about more than mortality.
Not propaganda, information. And moderate/prudent one as such.
False. Any other therapy with close to 0% efficiency and that high an amount of “complications” would immediately be banned in professional/licensed circles as well. I’ve seen drug addiction programs being shut down for the exact same reason where I live.
Again, this has been discussed extensively in other threads. Some quote from a radio talk show is not sufficient evidence to rewrite history.
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LisaA
Guest
One’s DNA determines our gender from the moment of conception. That someone THINKS they are a man when they have a uterus and breasts and estrogen flowing through their body is a very sad illusion. Mental illness is characterized by people thinking they are something which they are not. Is there any more credibility of a man (XY chromosome) thinking he’s really a woman than there is of a mentally ill person who thinks winged monkeys are coming to get him? Psychoses are part of mental illness and it seems rather difficult to believe that such a complete rejection of our very DNA is considered worthy of action but we don’t build a tower to protect or winged monkey prey. The problem with the whole mental illness meme is that it’s so incredibly subjective. Diseases and treatments go in and out of style as fast as women’s haircuts.
Thus a man who undergoes plastic surgery and hormone treatment because he thinks he’s a woman IS pretending his DNA has changed as has his physician. What makes one male or female isn’t the secondary sex characteristics but is at the DNA level. You can hack off a woman’s breasts and put a strap on penis but it doesn’t make that person a man. Without the ARTIFICIAL hormones, without the indoctrination via counselling she will still have the same muscle mass, structure and brain function as any other woman.
As to “reported happiness” when you mollify and addict or mentally ill person with what they think they want, they do report greater happiness. My meth head nephew was much happier when he was using than when we put him in rehab. Take away someone’s dopamine and you see a very unhappy camper.
You must not be from America because there are now LAWS claiming that one can use whichever bathroom, play on whatever sports team, shower in whatever locker room you THINK you are that day. They are calling these “transgender” children who must be kowtowed to while the normal children are exploited and traumatized. This is America, land of the loons.
Lisa
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Rin
Guest
I’m sorry, but most of what you say is wrong. Your understanding of how gender identity is formed is lacking, as is your understanding of transgenderism, and the laws you refer to.
But I’m tired of debunking the same, rehashed myths and preconceptions over and over and over again. I’m tired of fighting ignorance where there is no will to learn. So I’ll refrain. But I do encourage you to search for unbiased information, especially regarding how gender is determined. The XX/XY model is insufficient, and except “conservative” Catholics and radical feminists, no one adheres to it anymore.
I also encourage everyone to realize you’re not in a private setting; everything here is public and colors off on the Church. Some of what is written against transgender individuals here feels like a blow to the stomach; it is my prayer that no transgender person in danger of suicide finds this place. Or any such person at all, near-suicidal or not; were I not already in love with the real Holy Roman Church, encountering CAF would probably have put me off before even getting that chance. I pray that this doesn’t happen to anyone, but I fear it does.
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ringil
Guest
You have to look at it as you are posting for the lurkers. You are letting them know that many Catholics (most Catholics) don’t hold some of the ignorant, egregious, fantastical, or even funny views you read here.
They can tell- that’s what I hope.
Whenever these reparative pseudo-therapy or orientation “change” threads show up I try to come in and let the lurkers know what the complete body of licensed mental health professionals hold- including orthodox Catholic therapists.
I feel it is kind of a professional and Catholic obligation for me.
But there’s not a chance in hades you are going to get anywhere with the typical posters on this subject.
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Monkey1976
Guest
Sex is formed by one’s chromosomes, and is made evident in one’s physical body. Gender is a grammatical property of certain languages that is not properly applicable to biology.
Our sex is written in our bones. Every human skeleton ever found has been either male or female. Nobody has ever found a transgender skeleton. An individual’s sex is a physical reality which - outside of certain disorders which are only slightly more common than having a functional tail - is immediately apparent on a cursory examination of the body. If an individual believes they are something other than what their body shows, then that doesn’t mean they are anything but a mentally ill man or woman. If I believe with every fiber of my being that I am an ostrich - in spite of the evidence of my body - am I now a transspecies ostrich?
There are no structures in the brain which are exclusive to men or women.
Finally, from a Catholic point of view, Genesis states, “Male and female He created them”. Not, “Male and female and cismale and cisfemale and transmale and transfemale and cisbadger and transwallaby…”
Nothing does more damage to an ill person than telling them that they are not ill.
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LisaA
Guest
Actually my parents were PhD’s in biology with emphasis on genetics so I would suggest that SCIENCE is a better indicator of gender than pop culture. Apparently Facebook offers fifty something “gender” choices. It’s ridiculous. If someone thinks they are a girl but they have a penis and testicles and facial hair, I have to suspect they are not seeing things from a realistic basis. I don’t care if you are “tired” of explaining things when you do not have credible sources you do not have credibility.
As to my being a “conservative” Catholic, I assure you what I know about genetics is from science sources, not Catholicism. I was raised an atheist by atheists. XX and XY determine gender in almost all of the cases with some very very rare exceptions where a child is born with secondary sexual characteristics of both male and female. Now for those people my compassion is great as they were clearly dealt a bad hand.
BTW I think it’s quite interesting that reparative therapy is called torture and malpractice by the same folks promoting transgender surgery. Imagine some poor former gay or Lesbian reading what you say about them and their therapy? You aren’t in a private setting dontcha know.
Lisa
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Rin
Guest
Thank you. And yes, I hope they can tell; they are indeed the reason I post.
Thank you for doing what you do. Most professionals seem to avoid online forums. I admire your patience; a virtue in which I am lacking
I know - and it is not restricted to this subject. Be it against radical atheists on the subject of faith and reason, radical and anti-Catholic protestants on the subject of the Church, and so on. In general, radicalism and extremism have very similar traits, across belief systems.
Too simple. Current science has long since left the XX/XY-model.
In modern English, gender points towards one’s gender identity, as formed by the brain. English lacked a word for this, and “gender” seemed to convey the concept sufficiently. Words change all the time, deal with it.
Too simple. My skeleton has some marked female traits, and some marked male traits. While my pelvis probably would lead a future scientist to deduce that I was born male, the same scientist would probably also conclude that I was not sufficiently masculinized in utero.
Actually, as I mentioned, lack of masculinization (or masculinization where it shouldn’t have happened) can be visible on a skeleton. So there are markers of transgenderism on skeletons. But they’re not nearly certain enough to be used as a diagnosis; that does not mean they’re uninteresting scientifically.
One out of 500 children are born with ambiguous sex/intersex disorders, according to recent studies. That’s vastly more common than having a functional tail - and vastly less common than being transgender.
Are you aware that we have brains? And that these brains are masculinized (or not, in the case of women) during pregnancy, separately from the rest of the body, due to hormonal influence? Are you aware that we think with our brains, not our genitalia?
Off the mark and poorly concealed attempt at ridicule.
Being an ostrich in a human body is logically impossible. Having a brain that was not masculinized when it should have been (or the other way around) is completely possible.
While you can’t isolate one single structure that is exclusive, you are still as mistaken as you can possibly be. Male and female brains are markedly different, with very few exceptions. Trans women have been shown to have these female traits almost without exception, but sadly, this can only be tested through an autopsy as of today.
Also, you should note that there are no structures in the body which are exclusive to men or women. There are women with a vagina and internal testes, and men with a penis and ovaries. There are also men with both a vagina and penis, etc etc. You can’t point to any part of the body and say “this is exclusive to men/women”.
Transgender individuals very rarely see themselves as anything but male or female. A transwoman is simply a woman - the only reason to use the “trans” term is to tell something about their history. But when trans people introduce themselves to strangers, they very rarely introduce themselves as anything but a regular man or woman.
Of course there are the few “gender fluid” and “third gender” individuals - while I respect them and their struggle, I do not agree there is a third gender theologically. I believe in the duality and complementarity of sexes as much as you do, I just happen to also realize that there are women born with male bodies, and the other way around. The fact that transgender brains react positively to cross-sex hormones, while cisgender brains react adversely, is proof enough, in my opinion. You can feed a trans woman all the psychotropic drugs in the world if you wish; the only drug that will alleviate her pain is estrogen, and/or androgen blockers.
And lo and behold, ideology (not Catholic teaching - the Church acknowledges sex reassignment as valid treatment in serious cases of gender dysphoria) trumps reality.
I’ve seen this justification for clinging to ideology before; too bad that it actually kills. Your line of thought has blood on its hands. Period.
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Rin
Guest
You want sources? Okay:
Sex Differentiation: Organizing Effects of Sex Hormones
Julie Bakker Ph.D.
link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4614-7441-8_1
Behavioral Sexual Dimorphism in School-Age
Children and Early Developmental Exposure to Dioxins and PCBs
Gerhard Winneke, et al.
ehp.niehs.nih.gov/wp-content/uploads/121/11/ehp.1306533.pdf
Gender differences in neurodevelopment and epigenetics
Wilson C. J. Chung, Anthony P. Auger
link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00424-013-1258-4
Sexual Differentiation of the Human Brain in Relation to Gender-Identity, Sexual Orientation, and Neuropsychiatric Disorders
Prof. Dick Swaab, Prof. Ai-Min Bao
link.springer.com/referenceworkentry/10.1007/978-1-4614-1997-6_115
Fetal Testosterone Influences Sexually Dimorphic Gray Matter in the Human Brain
Michael V. Lombardo et al.
jneurosci.org/content/32/2/674.abstract
Transsexualism. Epidemiology, phenomenology, regret after surgery, aetiology, and public attitudes
Landén, Mikael
gupea.ub.gu.se/handle/2077/12418
The relationship between second-to-fourth digit ratio and female gender identity.
Hisasue S et al.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22738413
Gender development and the human brain.
Hines M.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21438685
Psychosexual Development in Children with Disorder of Sex Development (DSD) – Results from the German Clinical Evaluation Study
M. Jürgensen et al.
degruyter.com/view/j/jpem.2010.23.issue-6/jpem.2010.095/jpem.2010.095.xml
PRENATAL EXPOSURE TO DIETHYLSTILBESTROL (DES)
IN MALES AND GENDER-RELATED DISORDERS
Scott P. Kerlin, Ph.D.
shb-info.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/desexposedhbs.pdf
Prenatal exposure to testosterone and functional cerebral lateralization: a study in same-sex and opposite-sex twin girls.
Cohen-Bendahan CC
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15177706
There. That should be enough to get you started.
Whether or not you were raised by atheists (why would that be a guarantee of scientific knowledge?) is irrelevant. Your understanding of sex differentiation is flawed, either way.
Please also note that intersex conditions are not “very, very rare” - they are rare, but more common than many other conditions we see as “normal”. They are also vastly more common than transgenderism.
Good attempt, but sorry. I’ve said nothing that would drive an “ex-gay” out of the Church (on the contrary, they’re more likely to want to drive me out of the Church…), nor anything that would scare that person away from the Church or cause that person to commit suicide. I have nothing against them, but I do have something against defending quacks who prey upon the weak, which is essentially what you’re doing here. And I say what I say because we are in a public forum - I want lurkers to know that Catholics and the Church in general do not recommend “reparative therapy”, nor do we hold the rather extreme anti-gay and anti-transgender sentiments that sadly are exhibited on this forum. We may be conservative (I certainly am), but we also tend to prefer reason over preconception, reality over ideology, and compassion over fear.
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Joie_de_Vivre
Guest
The brain is sexed at a different time from the body, it is entirely possible for it to be under or over masculinized compared what DNA says it should be and then there are those with genetic issues that case the body to not respond properly to the hormones.
In transwomen for example the brain is undermasculinized and as a result their brain and thinking are much more similar to that of a woman than a man. I imagine you’d find it rather distressing for you to be forced to act like a man (such as not being able to express emotions), be expected to date women, marry one, have kids and be a father, I know I would. Gender affirmation therapy and mind altering drugs to try to make them think like their birth sex seem to be rather impotent.
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LisaA
Guest
I’m not sure if you bothered to read the articles and abstracts or were just showing off you can use Google but none of them discounted the XX vs XY differentiation. Most referred to differing levels of testosterone during the pregnancy and its impact on the child. So the theory that a baby girl who had more exposure to testosterone than is normal may be more likely to be active and outdoorsy or focus on boy themed toys? Further the theory that when the ring finger is longer than the index finger, it indicates such. OK…maybe you’ve never heard the word “Tomboy” but it was in common use in my childhood. I was one of them, always outside, loved boys sports and boys activities, hated dolls, never played house refused to wear a dress unless it was pulled over my head by force. And hey I even have the longer ring finger so maybe I had more testosterone in my mother’s womb.
How does that change my chromosomes? Being a tomboy was a stage in life. Now I’m a dress wearing, long haired, makeup every day girly girl. All this obsession with transient behavior or illusions (heck I also thought I was a horse) does not change one’s chromosomes.
Of course there are variations in outward expressions of gender. Some women look and act quite masculine and certainly there are effete males out there. Does this mean they aren’t the sex they were born :How utterly silly.
The reality is that I don’t buy this gender bender, be who you are today and maybe who you aren’t tomorrow. No amount of fantastic plastic will make a male a female. I think those who take money to hack off breasts and penises are exploiting some very sad and sick individuals.
Lisa
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SMGS127
Guest
Do you believe a person with CAIS (completely XY DNA, missing internal reproductive organs, completely female external genitalia, internal testes, and female secondary sexual characteristics) is male then?
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Darryl1958
Guest
I wonder how much of human sexuality in general is genetic?
Is the propensity of many women, for example, to go for the ‘bad boy’ abusive relationship genetically programmed?
Or is the propensity of men in general to want to spread their seed far and wide genetic too?
How about a propensity to rape, or sexual attraction to a wide variety of people or objects outside of what is considered normal?
Is it all written in our genes?
Is the propensity of many women, for example, to go for the ‘bad boy’ abusive relationship genetically programmed?
Or is the propensity of men in general to want to spread their seed far and wide genetic too?
How about a propensity to rape, or sexual attraction to a wide variety of people or objects outside of what is considered normal?
Is it all written in our genes?
- Status