Being gay is in your genes

[Catolico65]

You repeat yourself ad nauseum, except when asked for evidence. Could it be that the evidence tends to let you down?

Could it be that you confuse “no choice” with innate creation? There is only one set of blue prints Catolico, but the building process is not perfect.

With all due respect I must have referenced the report more than a hundred times in this forum since October. Not so conspicuously is I can’t remember one person in the “innate” crown that actually read it before criticizing it. Rather they summarize criticisms from the gay lobby websites. It is therefore quite clear based on this evidence that those in the innate crowd are not interested in the truth, so I see little point.

 

[Rau]

With all due respect when you and others claim homosexual desires are innate, ie ordained by God as natural this by logical inference infers either God “sets us up to fail” or that God created homosexuality to be good. Of course are erroneous.

Worse is that when confused Christians tell others suffering from SSa that they can do nothing about it because it is God’s will. Not only is that tragic it could be dangerous for one’s soul.

Obfuscation and verballing!

 

[Catolico65]

I agree. He may have confused his own situation with homosexuality, which is a bit demeaning to those people who suffer it as a deep-seated, unwanted, unchosen scourge every day of their life; those that pray every day for it to be lifted and fight to remain chaste. By all means pray to God for the strength to live well and to ease the burden. But, to be declaring that a cure lies in turning to God with humility is not taught by the Church and is grievously cruel, but understandable given his experience is limited by brief personal circumstances.

Read your Bible my friend.

“Jesus said to him in reply, “What do you want me to do for you?” The blind man replied to him, “Master, I want to see.” 52Jesus told him, “Go your way; your faith has saved you.” Immediately he received his sight and followed him on the way.”

“And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.”

 

[Catolico65]

By all means - I agree. But the offering of therapies by paid persons needs to be subject to some controls by relevant authorities to protect the patients who are vulnerable to being conned. If the weight of medical opinion is that certain therapies rarely if ever work, or are believed to be harmful too often, then there is an argument that those therapies ought not to be offered.

God created medicine and the doctors and His Son has the final Word.

 

[Rau]

The Catholic Church states homosexuality is contrary to natural law. Therefore, the use of the term “natural” appears to more of an expeditious nature to suit a purpose rather than to understand the Church’s position.

No, that’s not right. It states in the Catechism:

*"Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents **homosexual acts **as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” **They *are contrary to the natural law. "

It also states: “This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial”

Can you see the difference between **temptations ** to something contrary to natural law, and **acts ** contrary to natural law, Catolico?

Do you understand where sin comes into this?

 

[Rau]

Read your Bible my friend.

“Jesus said to him in reply, “What do you want me to do for you?” The blind man replied to him, “Master, I want to see.” 52Jesus told him, “Go your way; your faith has saved you.” Immediately he received his sight and followed him on the way.”

“And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.”

So Catolico - you see yourself similarly to that blind man - walking proof of a miracle? There must be many other medical reports of others suffering blindness who have been cured in just the same way.

 

[Catolico65]

No, that’s not right. It states in the Catechism:

*"Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents **homosexual acts ***as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” **They **are contrary to the natural law. "

It also states: “This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial”

Can you see the difference between **temptations ** to something contrary to natural law, and **acts ** contrary to natural law, Catolico?

Do you understand where sin comes into this?

What you infer from this statement is that persistent homosexual desires as temptations are normal, but that is unsubstantiated.

Romans 1:25:

*They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.w 26Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. *

It is clear that homosexuality in adults that have not had some type of trauma or indoctrination of a child are given homosexual temptations. Whether they choose to act on them is their own decision. There is a cure, submittal to God and humility. Of course if people think God works on their schedule they have an issue with arrogance imo.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

What you infer from this statement is that persistent homosexual desires as temptations are normal, but that is unsubstantiated. Please read the Old Testament and Romans I.

Please read the New Testament, where Paul tells men to stop having sex with other men. He does not tell them to stop being tempted to do so. Nor is he concerned with converting them into “heterosexuals”.

 

[Catolico65]

So Catolico - you see yourself similarly to that blind man - walking proof of a miracle? There must be many other medical reports of others suffering blindness who have been cured in just the same way.

Oh ye of little faith.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lourdes_Medical_Bureau

BTW, according to Jesus little faith yields little results. Certainly, this does not have to keep us out of heaven but can prolong a condition that God does not want for us.

 

[Catolico65]

Please read the New Testament, where Paul tells men to stop having sex with other men. He does not tell them to stop being tempted to do so. Nor is he concerned with converting them into “heterosexuals”.

Paul also tells us why people have homosexual temptations. You can’t pick and choose from the Bible that which you find convenient. The Word of God is not like tax laws where you look for loopholes, rather we are trying to understand God’s will as He intended.

 

[Rau]

With all due respect there are a group of posters that jump in all the threads regarding homosexuality and all claim it is innate, thus trying to convince others by consensus. Conspicuously, this happens in other forums as well and is right out of the gay lobby handbook.

There is one poster who jumps into all the threads regarding homosexuality and:

• verbals those with a different view, obfuscates, and avoids difficult questions
• claims to know the genesis of homosexuality,
• declares there are absolutely no biological factors at work;
• declares most cases can be put down to sexual abuse and/or being persuaded by others-- asserts that homosexual tendencies would be eliminated if the homosexuals would only turn to God in humility and prayer.
• denies the existence and innate goodness of large numbers of people who suffer SSA and strive every day of their life to live chastely.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

With all due respect when you and others claim homosexual desires are innate, ie ordained by God as natural this by logical inference infers either God “sets us up to fail” or that God created homosexuality to be good. Of course are erroneous.

1. I did not claim that homosexual desires are innate. I do claim that these desires are not chosen, and that they are usually not a result of the person who experiences them having sinned.
2. I am professionally trained in logic. I teach logic. Even if we suppose that “homosexual desires are innate”, it does not follow that “either homosexuality is good or God sets us up to fail.” God could have good reasons for allowing us to have innate dispositions that are not good, so long as He also gives us the moral capacity to resist these dispositions.

Worse is that when confused Christians tell others suffering from SSa that they can do nothing about it because it is God’s will. Not only is that tragic it could be dangerous for one’s soul.

But OF COURSE God can change our desires. But I don’t think this change often happens by God changing us from “liking boys” to “liking girls”. I don’t think our sexual desires are all that important to God’s plan. I think God changes us from “seeking out selfish gratification” to “willing the good of everyone”, or from “lusting after many” to “engaging in a self-giving and fruitful union with one”.

In other words, God wants people to be chaste. Sometimes He does this by removing temptations from us. Sometimes he does it by giving us the grace to resist those temptations.

Oh, and I’m not saying that SSA is “God’s will”, no more than I would say that destructive hurricanes are God’s will. It is a mystery why God allows these things.

The Catholic Church states homosexuality is contrary to natural law.

False. The CC teaches that homosexual acts are contrary to natural law. Only actions can be contrary to a law, and “homosexuality” is not an action.

Stealing is also contrary to natural law. Now the desire to steal is not objectively disordered, so there is a difference there. Perhaps that is the point you’re trying to drive home?

My advice is that dogma isn’t like the tax law where we need to look for loopholes, but rather something when taken as a whole is very clear and unambiguous.

As I quoted Saint Alphonsus Liguori above, we must not make people feel guilty for their temptations. That is poor pastoring. *And *it is contrary to dogma.

 

[Catolico65]

There is one poster who jumps into all the threads regarding homosexuality and:

• verbals those with a different view, obfuscates, and avoids difficult questions
• claims to know the genesis of homosexuality,
• declares there are absolutely no biological factors at work;
• declares most cases can be put down to sexual abuse and/or being persuaded by others-- asserts that homosexual tendencies would be eliminated if the homosexuals would only turn to God in humility and prayer.
• denies the existence and innate goodness of large numbers of people who suffer SSA and strive every day of their life to live chastely.

How can you miss my numerous references to Romans I as a cause for SSA?? That is not charitable.

As far as denying that there are people who suffer from SSA and strive to be good Christians you of course cannot find one post of mine that claims nor infers that thus this statement is pure propaganda and nothing else. That is not charitable.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Paul also tells us why people have homosexual temptations. You can’t pick and choose from the Bible that which you find convenient. The Word of God is not like tax laws where you look for loopholes, rather we are trying to understand God’s will as He intended.

Paul tells us that some people commit homosexual acts out of rebellion against God. He does not say that all homosexual acts are committed for this reason, nor does he say that all homosexual attraction stems from this reason.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Moreover, I myself had my first attraction to men when I was 10 or 11. Are you saying that I was a reprobate at that age, and so God handed me over to my depraved mind at that age?

Does that sound like something God would do to a fifth grader?

 

[Catolico65]

Paul tells us that some people commit homosexual acts out of rebellion against God. He does not say that all homosexual acts are committed for this reason, nor does he say that all homosexual attraction stems from this reason.

Read Roman 1 please.

 

[Catolico65]

Moreover, I myself had my first attraction to men when I was 10 or 11. Are you saying that I was a reprobate at that age, and so God handed me over to my depraved mind at that age?

Does that sound like something God would do to a fifth grader?

For the record I have excluded children from Romans I for obvious and logical reasons. Yet again another reason why I find it hard to take some posters seriously when they cannot bother to read my posts nor references.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Read Roman 1 please.

I have. Please cite to me where it says that all homosexual attraction is caused by rebellion against God.

For the record I have excluded children from Romans I for obvious and logical reasons. Yet again another reason why I find it hard to take some posters seriously when they cannot bother to read my posts nor references.

Now you’re really confusing me.

So then you claim that rebellion is only ONE possible cause for SSA. And yet you talk as if everyone who experiences SSA is a rebel against God and needs to have their temptations converted.

What is it? Am I a rebel against God? Was I when I was 10?

 

[JamesCaruso]

I agree. He may have confused his own situation with homosexuality, which is a bit demeaning to those people who suffer it as a deep-seated, unwanted, unchosen scourge every day of their life; those that pray every day for it to be lifted and fight to remain chaste. By all means pray to God for the strength to live well and to ease the burden. But, to be declaring that a cure lies in turning to God with humility is not taught by the Church and is grievously cruel, but understandable given his experience is limited by brief personal circumstances.

Is there a tendency on the part of Catholic homosexuals to think, “If only I was heterosexual, then I could find the love of my life and be happy enjoying licit sex in Holy Matrimony?” It is true that that possibility exists, but in my own experience, that is not the average case. I only speak about the sexual problems of males in marriage, and it is all anecdotal from what I have experienced, and what other men have told me, and I deliberately omit all the other things that destroy harmonious marital relationships, such as, drugs, alcohol, mental problems, physical sickness and disease, lack of adequate finances, infidelity, and so forth. .

Just speaking of sexual fulfillment in marriage:

• Some heterosexuals may be called to the single life, so any attempt to find a suitable mate will always be frustrated, insofar as their happiness lies in the single life by vocation.
• Some male heterosexuals want to marry, feel called to it, but never seem to find someone for them.
• Some male heterosexuals find their wives unable, unwilling, or not interested in having sex, which may not show itself until later in the marriage; they may go for days and days, or even months or years without sexual relations with their wives,
• Some male heterosexuals find sex unsatisfying because their wives don’t want it or don’t enjoy it, and only have sex reluctantly or out of fair play.
• Some male heterosexuals no longer find their wives attractive as they once did and so feel sexually frustrated.
• Some male heterosexuals find their wives unable to accept even non-sexual affection or intimacy.

There are many ways in which a heterosexual marriage can be more of a crucifixion than a celebration of life. Likewise, those who do not marry find a crucifixion in total abstinence. So, I guess I would say to homosexuals that it’s not always what it’s cracked up to be. Maintaining chastity when sex is only occasionally available may be more difficult than total abstinence, and we know that total or near total abstinence is always difficult for a normal individual, There seems to be plenty of fulfilling sex in movies, but not so much in life.

If a person does have an ideal sex life, I’ll bet dollars to donuts there is some other equally difficult cross to bear. But in a country where sexuality is so highly touted as the path to earthly happiness it is no wonder that sexual restraint forms a large part of the personalized cross of most every person. How hard it is for a Catholic to grow up in a culture that says

• Masturbation is normal, natural and not sinful. * Sex before marriage is necessary in choosing the right marriage partner.* Sex before marriage is normal and desirable, especially since we have contraceptives, and abortion in case anything goes wrong… * Same-sex sex is just an alternative lifestyle. * If a partner doesn’t deliver in the sexual department in marriage, it justifies divorce, infidelity, and masturbation.

On top of the loose societal norms for sexual morality, the media bombards us with sexual stimuli on a near continuous basis unless a person has learned the discipline to turn it off. I think everyone would be better off, both heterosexual and homosexual, if they could reprogram themselves to downplay the significance of sexual fulfillment in their lives. It’s not even close to the end-all of all end-alls, as it’s so often glamorized. **Achieving holiness is in reality our main responsibility in this life, and it is far more fulfilling than a perfect sex life. ** If you are a Catholic and don’t believe this, I think you are losing the battle for seeing the world as it is, which is passing even as we are not.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

On top of the loose societal norms for sexual morality, the media bombards us with sexual stimuli on a near continuous basis unless a person has learned the discipline to turn it off. I think everyone would be better off, both heterosexual and homosexual, if they could reprogram themselves to downplay the significance of sexual fulfillment in their lives. It’s not even close to the end-all of all end-alls, as it’s so often glamorized. **Achieving holiness is in reality our main responsibility in this life, and it is far more fulfilling than a perfect sex life. **

Amen! Preach it, brother!