- Status
J
JamesCaruso
Guest
Please explain what you mean by “what God has made.”
Your case and your knowledge of others is anecdotal. It cannot be extrapolated to include all homosexuals. Homosexuality is a disorder that can be healed by Christ, but just because you have shown dependence on God and true humility, and been healed, does not mean that others will be healed, not in this lifetime anyway. Catholicism does not subscribe to the Kenneth Hagen school of thought whereby God wants to heal everyone’s malady, and if it doesn’t happen there must be something wrong with the ill person, such as, lack of faith, or dependence or humility. Paul had something, we don’t know what, that he repeatedly asked the Lord to take from him, but he did not. The message was, God’s grace is sufficient.
I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 COR 12
I am happy that you and others were healed. God bless you for sharing this. It might be fruitful if you explained to any homosexuals reading these posts just how you and others came to be healed, but without raising expectations too high. God can do anything, but he often does not do what “we” think he should do.
J
Joie_de_Vivre
Guest
Catolico65, do you think human suffering is bad?
R
Rau
Guest
I interpret Church teaching to the best of my ability. I try not to invent it though. Thank you for the prayer and I would be pleased to do likewise for you.
R
Rau
Guest
My benefit?? How do I benefit?
Sadly, there is no one with whom you are in agreement - except yourself, but I don’t really think that counts as agreement.
I agree with the Church - that the cause of homosexuality is largely unknown.
Like the Church - I would not suggest that any (faithful) person chooses to experience same sex attractions. As the Church says, for such a person, they are a “trial”.
Like the Church - I would not suggest that God gave an individual SSA as punishment for something the individual has done.
I understand you interpret Church teaching on these points differently.
S
SMGS127
Guest
My benefit?? How do I benefit?
Sadly, there is no one with whom you are in agreement - except yourself, but I don’t really think that counts as agreement.
I agree with the Church - that the cause of homosexuality is largely unknown.
Like the Church - I would not suggest that any (faithful) person chooses to experience same sex attractions. As the Church says, for such a person, they are a “trial”.
Like the Church - I would not suggest that God gave an individual SSA as punishment for something the individual has done.
I understand you interpret Church teaching on these points differently.
R
Rau
Guest
You’ve declared God sends homosexuality as punishment. So those people must be deserving of God’s punishment. How evil they must be, no?
C
Catolico65
Guest
You are mistaken. The Catechism says specifically “Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained.” as opposed to *completely *unexplained as we already know from St. Paul of a cause for SSA and from psychology that children who are sexually abused can suffer from this as well. therefore, the CC is leaving the option open for other causes as well. Nonetheless, we shouldn’t presume to know these must less promote a biological cause based on hearsay.
C
Catolico65
Guest
My friend with all due respect there is absolutely nothing in Scripture that say we are not supposed to help our fellow man with their cross or correct them if they are lost, which is what you are recommending.
C
Catolico65
Guest
But looking for loopholes instead of trying to understand the Spirit of God’s teachings is “inventing”.
God in His imminent Wisdom gives us a plethora of commentary about His will and right and wrong that we use to understand His intention more fully. That is why when we read where Jesus says we must hate our mother and brother we don’t go out and do that because there are other verses that compliment this to help us infer the complete meaning.
I also will keep you in my prayers. I believe your focus should be more on Christ instead of sin because He has defeated it so while our minds and bodies may fail us we know if we are contrite and persistent to be healed He will forgive us and all our sins will be forgotten forever. Of equally importance is forgiveness of others and obedience to accept God’s Word in principle even if we can’t in practice. Not to worry, no one can accept God’s Word completely in practice because all men are sinners.
C
Catolico65
Guest
You are mistaken, those were St. Paul’s words.
Regarding deserving punishment, you are confused. We are all sinners and thus deserve to be punished.
Regarding your insinuation that I am on this board to condemns sinners, that would be quite unintelligent of me because I still commit mortal sins, which are very serious because I know better and every time time I point out sin it calls attention to my own sins. My goal rather is to help others with the hope that by doing so God will help me become better. Paz.
J
JamesCaruso
Guest
help our fellow man eith their cr
God forbid that I would ever recommend that we should not help our fellow man with their crosses or correct them if they are lost.!
Simon helped Jesus carry his cross, and is the example for all of us to perform works of mercy.
When someone sins by homosexual actions, we should correct them in all charity for their wrongful behavior.
When someone has a homosexual condition or disposition, we can only correct (admonish) them to the extent that their behavior led to their condition, but we cannot equate having the condition with sin, because once they have it, it is no longer in the realm of the person’s will. No one can will away such a condition. They can try to change their thinking, their behaviors, and anything that might contribute to the disorder, but they can’t simply say, as of today I no longer have this unwanted attraction. The fact that it is “unwanted” says that it is not willed by them, and sin is of the will and only of the will. We can however, if we are qualified, attempt to help them change their condition, which in itself is not a sinful condition, but a condition that gives rise to temptation to sin.
The condition, which you seem to have trouble understanding, is not in itself sinful even though it gives rise to temptation to sin, no more than heterosexuality is sinful, which also gives rise to temptation to sin. True, one is disordered and one is proper, but neither are sinful, though both give rise to temptation, which, if given into, is sin.
Standing out in the freezing rain without umbrella, hat or coat, might lead to a cold, but some people follow all the prescribed procedures for cold prevention and still get a cold. We do not correct a person for having a cold, but only for behaviors that might have contributed to that cold. The cold itself is a different matter-- if medical science can cure it, all the better, but let’s not punish people or make them feel guilty if the cold persists.
Peace. I hope we are not arguing yet agreeing. I understand where you are coming from, but I can’t imagine that your experiences typify the world at large.
I don’t mean to erect a wall against helping a person change from homosexual attraction to heterosexual attraction, but I don’t want to see unqualified persons trying to do so, for the reason that they might do more harm than good, and I don’t want to rule out the possibility that in a given case it is a condition that will persist despite well meaning treatment.
The Holy Spirit gives us the fruit of self control, but nowhere do I find that it gives us the gift of heterosexuality. Self control is all that is necessary to keep men and women from lusting after others of the same sex. Sexual attraction is not lust. Lust is sinful, but sexual attraction is not.
Eventually, God will give us all wholeness, but some will have to wait until after death to have their blindness restored, their severed limbs replaced, their mental illness corrected, their cancer cured, or their sexuality become a perfect reflection of what God intended men and women to have prior to the fall of man. I might add that I doubt anyone’s sexuality is that perfect reflection of what God gifted man at the beginning of creation, neither yours or mine as we now stand.
C
Catolico65
Guest
I would like to point out the following observations:
- Most of those who suffer from SSA here in this forum(as well as other forums) outright believe it is innate or have no problem suggesting that it is.
- The aforementioned group firmly believes in telling others that their SSA cannot be changed, ie that they were born with it.
- There is nothing in Scripture nor doctrine that supports an innate condition of SSA, on the contrary.
- There is no definitive scientific study that can support that SSA, on the contrary the latest studies overwhelmingly point to a psychological cause.
- The Bible and the catechism support a psychological cause of SSA.
Regarding your statement about my “unqualified” advice please be aware that the APA says conversion therapy does not work and is forbidden, which of course opposes Catholic teaching. therefore, my advice to you as a fellow Christian is never accept what the world says over your Catholic faith. Also, I read on a frequent basis testimonies from Christian who once were practicing homosexuals but were healed by God so to say this doesn’t work is an untruth. Finally, the report I referenced is a compilation of more than 10,000 scientific studies and the results clearly show homosexuality is temporary for the majority of people - this is fact and is not up for debate. Paz.
R
Rau
Guest
Sexual Attractions are in the mind, not, say, the foot, so it is clearly reasonable to classify the condition as psychological. The Church states that the genesis of this condition is largely unknown. Only Catolico says God gives individuals homosexuality as a punishment, and cites Romans I. If only the Church had explained this to sufferers, and thus provided clearer guidance to those suffering this condition on how to overcome!!!
C
Catolico65
Guest
You clearly ignore that the Catechism says homosexual origin is “largely” but not completely unknown. This is certainly in deference with Scripture, which the Catholic Church cannot oppose.Sexual Attractions are in the mind, not, say, the foot, so it is clearly reasonable to classify the condition as psychological. The Church states that the genesis of this condition is largely unknown. Only Catolico says God gives individuals homosexuality as a punishment, and cites Romans I. If only the Church had explained this to sufferers, and thus provided clearer guidance to those suffering this condition on how to overcome!!!
With regard to the one source of homosexuality, it is St Paul who makes this claim and not I.
Regarding being healed from deep seated homosexual tendencies, the Catechism recommends they “can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.” which infers that they will no longer have deep seated SSA, therefore, the CC certainly has guidelines.
My advice to those suffering from SSA is to submit to God and accept His will even if we cannot comply with it. this healed my SSA and diabolic thoughts. However, for those who resist submitting to His divine will, which mostly means recognizing our sins as opposed to stopping them, then the results are predictable.
Finally, I would like to add that if we accept Scripture as we should, and in this case specifically Romans I, it tells us that those who are arrogant that oppose God could be delivered to SSA. Therefore, the obvious solution to be rid of SSA would be to humble oneself completely to God.
R
Rau
Guest
You meant to say, “contradicts Catolico’s interpretation of Romans”. The Church has no need to refute Catolico’s interpretation of Romans because Catolico’s interpretation is his alone! Catolico’s interpretation is curiously unique!
I agree with the Church - that the cause of homosexuality is largely unknown.
Like the Church - I would not suggest that any (faithful) person chooses to experience same sex attractions. As the Church says, for such a person, they are a “trial”.
Like the Church - I would not suggest that God gave an individual SSA as punishment for something the individual has done.
I understand you interpret Church teaching on these points differently.
So be it.
R
Rau
Guest
The Church has no need to oppose Scripture, because Scripture, properly understood, is true. But how curious that this piece of Scripture - which you say declares that God sends homosexuality to individuals as a punishment, is NEVER referenced by the Church in that context. Could it be because the Church does not interpret as you do?
The Church does **not **promise that one can be healed of these deep-seated tendencies while here on earth (or indeed of any temptations). We know healing sometimes occurs (you pointed to the miracles of Lourdes earlier in this thread), but there is not a formula to deliver it on earth. Christian perfection is not a state absent temptations. Christ is our example.
Good advice for all the faithful whatever their demons.
Your wish is for people to accept Romans 1 as you understand it. I ask you to consider that you may be in error, as the absence of any support for your interpretation from the Church, in the context of its teachings regarding homosexuality, suggests. God did not send homosexuality to you, or to anyone else, as a punishment.
R
Rau
Guest
Likewise yours. On this we are sure to agree, no?
- Status