Being homosexual, celibate, but still having a partner

[AB_Juney]

Thank you Dakota Roberts. It looks as though Father Serpa needs a serious acquaintance with the Church Fathers too.

Because you know better than a priest. That’s cuuute.

 

[CopticChristian]

It may be different for those for those of the same sex with SSA because it is often a very different phenomina.

Your underlying presupposition, that an attempted chaste homosexual relationship is more likely to lead to sin just as an attempted chaste relationship between an unwed man and woman, is often false (although not necessarily). Same-sex attraction is often a very different phenomena than opposite sex attraction.

I’ve done a considerable about of research on the subject of homosexuality (mostly male homosexuality). I’ve found that for many men with SSA, being in a close, healthy, and chaste relationship relationship with someone of the same sex can help them avoid sin immensely more than it might lead them to sin. I’m not 100% sure what the effects may be…

For the OP’s relationship, I can only speculate. It’s something that the OP will have to think hard and dispassionately about (regarding if it’s a healthy sisterly relationship that leads away from sin or an unhealthy relationship that is more likely to cause sin). If there’s emotional dependency, than it’s almost certainly an unhealthy relationship. Having a limited knowledge about the OP and her relationship, it’s only appropriate for her to decide.

If something is more likely to keep you from sinning than it is to influence you to sin, than it isn’t a near occasion of sin.

Bob,

Cite your research so that I may review it. You could revolutionize my thinking.

 

[AB_Juney]

I don’t see what’s so revolutionary about that. Even apologists on this site have said strong, deep same sex friendships are immesnly beneficial for those who have SSA. Unless he was refering speicifically to romantic but chaste relationships, in which case, I dunno

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

Manual, could you better explain your critique? I’m not following. Do you have a problem with the first point or the second?

**
Part of my second point above is this: if what we’re trying to do (and I hope this is what we’re trying to do) is grasp the fundamental reality of what something is, it is our job to understand that something on its own terms, but it is not that something’s job to conform to our individual understanding of it. If I think a rhinoceros is a defective horse or that a rat is a twisted squirrel or a rose is a broken peony, I’m not really understanding very much about a rhinoceros or a rat or a rose. If I call a Roman Catholic an idolator because they pray to a saint, I don’t really understand much about what being a Roman Catholic actually is or means. Similarly, if I think two people in love are just friends and should be called as such, it’s safe to say I don’t really understand the depth of their feeling very accurately and, consequently, I cannot have very much constructive to say regarding the nature or reality of that relationship since I fundamentally misapprehend it.**
Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark,

Perception is reality. Pereception may be real or imagined and the reality in both cases is real.

 

[Jonponwon]

AB Juney. Yes, a lot more than the liberal anything-goes ones of today.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Thank you Dakota Roberts. It looks as though Father Serpa needs a serious acquaintance with the Church Fathers too.

Of Some Jewish and Gentile Observances.

XXVII. Now if any persons keep to the Jewish customs and observances concerning the natural emission and nocturnal pollutions, and the lawful conjugal acts, Leviticus xv let them tell us whether in those hours or days, when they undergo any such thing, they observe not to pray, or to touch a Bible, or to partake of the Eucharist? And if they own it to be so, it is plain they are void of the Holy Spirit, which always continues with the faithful. For concerning holy persons Solomon says: That every one may prepare himself, that so when he sleeps it may keep him, and when he arises it may talk with him. Proverbs 6:22 For if you think, O woman, when you are seven days in your separation, that you are void of the Holy Spirit, then if you should die suddenly you will depart void of the Spirit, and without assured hope in God; or else you must imagine that the Spirit always is inseparable from you, as not being in a place. But you stand in need of prayer and the Eucharist, and the coming of the Holy Ghost, as having been guilty of no fault in this matter. For neither lawful mixture, nor child-bearing, nor the menstrual purgation, nor nocturnal pollution, can defile the nature of a man, or separate the Holy Spirit from him. Nothing but impiety and unlawful practice can do that. For the Holy Spirit always abides with those that are possessed of it, so long as they are worthy; and those from whom it is departed, it leaves them desolate, and exposed to the wicked spirit. Now every man is filled either with the holy or with the unclean spirit; and it is not possible to avoid the one or the other, unless they can receive opposite spirits. For the Comforter hates every lie, and the devil hates all truth. But every one that is baptized agreeably to the truth is separated from the diabolical spirit, and is under the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit remains with him so long as he is doing good, and fills him with wisdom and understanding, and suffers not the wicked spirit to approach him, but watches over his goings. You therefore, O woman, if, as you say, in the days of your separation you are void of the Holy Spirit, you are then filled with the unclean one; for by neglecting to pray and to read you will invite him to you, though he were unwilling. For this spirit, of all others, loves the ungrateful, the slothful, the careless, and the drowsy, since he himself by ingratitude was distempered with evil mind, and was thereby deprived by God his dignity; having rather chosen to be a devil than an archangel. Wherefore, O woman, eschew such vain words, and be ever mindful of God that created you, and pray to Him. For He is your Lord, and the Lord of the universe; and meditate in His laws without observing any such things, such as the natural purgation, lawful mixture, child-birth, a miscarriage, or a blemish of the body; since such observations are the vain inventions of foolish men, and such inventions as have no sense in them. Neither the burial of a man, nor a dead man’s bone, nor a sepulchre, nor any particular sort of food, nor the nocturnal pollution, can defile the soul of man; but only impiety towards God, and transgression, and injustice towards one’s neighbour; I mean rapine, violence, or if there be anything contrary to His righteousness, adultery or fornication. Wherefore, beloved, avoid and eschew such observations, for they are heathenish. For we do not abominate a dead man, as do they, seeing we hope that he will live again. Nor do we hate lawful mixture; for it is their practice to act impiously in such instances. For the conjunction of man and wife, if it be with righteousness, is agreeable to the mind of God. For He that made them at the beginning made them male and female; and He blessed them, and said, Increase and multiply, and fill the earth. Matthew 19:4; Genesis 1:28 If, therefore, the difference of sexes was made by the will of God for the generation of multitudes, then must the conjunction of male and female be also acceptable to His mind.

newadvent.org/fathers/07156.htm

 

[Jonponwon]

Dakota Roberts you really take time and trouble over your posts, and that is a most admirable quality. Please accept my gratitude and admiration. Have you read the sayings of the desert fathers on the matter of sex? They are most interesting. The 4 volumes of the Philokalia that are in English alo have a wealth of material. But best of all, to my mind, is The Ladder of Divine Ascent by St John Climacus. He devotes an entire chapter to sex and it is the most profound exegesis I have ever read. You can also look with profit into the Institutes and Cinferences of St John Cassian. For some reason - and I suspect it was their absolutely one-pointed devotion to God - they achieved more than monks of later centuries, spiritually speaking, and defined the thinking of the Church until Vatican II, which loosed a Pandora’s box of heresies.

 

[CatholcCrusader]

Hello everyone,
I am a 24 year-old lesbian and a recent convert to the faith. Deciding to become Catholic was a difficult and wonderful process (falling in love with the Faith but also realizing I had to let go of my sexuality). Ironically the person who introduced me to Catholicism was the lesbian woman I was falling in love with. We both new that we had a choice: continue to be sexually active with one another, or commit to and follow the teachings of the Church. As hard as it is to give up the desires of the flesh, we knew by reason and faith that our only choice was to follow God through the Church’s teaching. We have both been celibate for roughly a year. We have also been living together as companions (partners if you will). I believe this may be a rare phenomenon and this situation is not something that has been addressed by any church leaders to the best of my knowledge. I did however speak to a nun who said that although we are not committing a mortal sin by living together and loving one another, we may be putting ourselves into an “occasion of sin,” meaning we could easily be tempted into sin by our situation. The thing is, I think it would be more of an occasion for sin if I did not have this woman as my partner because she constantly supports me and encourages me to resist sin. If I were alone I would be much more likely to be impure. Plus, like many people I need to be close to someone in a relationship of love, trust, and commitment. I am wondering what other thoughtful Catholics think and feel about this. Please share any comments you might have or questions. God Bless!
p.s. I have two beautiful baby morning doves that have just hatched in a nest on my porch! Cool.

Welcome to the Church.

I would advise extreme caution. It is actually a sin to place yourself in the “near occasion” of sin. For example, if an alcoholic who is staying clean and sober decides to sit in a bar every day to hang out with his friends and vows to drink only coffee, he is shoving temptation right in his own face. Not too smart.

In a way, homosexuality is similar to alcoholism. I know you are thinking “What the heck??!!” Hear me out.

Alcoholism is a disorder of sorts. Alcoholics are not bad people just because they have this condition, and many of them stay clean and sober and live good lives. But drunkeness is still a sin, and the alcoholic bears a cross that most folks do not. Being an alcoholic is not bad but giving into it is.

Same-sex attraction is also a disorder. Yet, like the Alcoholic, homosexuals are not bad people just because they have same-sex attraction. Some, like you, stay chaste and live good lives. But homosexual sex is still a sin, and the homosexual bears a cross that most folks do not.

You may have some sort of “love” for this other person, but it is a feeling that has its genesis in a disordered desire and is not “authentic” love. There may be some authenticity to it in the sense that you love them as a person, but many of us love many people as persons but do not call them “partners”.

I fear that you have made a concious decision to do the right thing, which is fantastic, but that you are still hanging on to a little bit of the past. That is quite danngerous. You might make it work, but you might be setting yourself up for failure.

 

[CopticChristian]

=Jonponwon;9751103Dakota Roberts you really take time and trouble over your posts, and that is a most admirable quality. Please accept my gratitude and admiration. Have you read the sayings of the desert fathers on the matter of sex? They are most interesting. The 4 volumes of the Philokalia that are in English alo have a wealth of material. But best of all, to my mind, is The Ladder of Divine Ascent by St John Climacus. He devotes an entire chapter to sex and it is the most profound exegesis I have ever read. You can also look with profit into the Institutes and Cinferences of St John Cassian. For some reason - and I suspect it was their absolutely one-pointed devotion to God - they achieved more than monks of later centuries, spiritually speaking, and defined the thinking of the Church until Vatican II, which loosed a Pandora’s box of heresies./

Jon,

What heresies might those be so that I may know?

 

[CopticChristian]

Welcome to the Church.

I would advise extreme caution. It is actually a sin to place yourself in the “near occasion” of sin. For example, if an alcoholic who is staying clean and sober decides to sit in a bar every day to hang out with his friends and vows to drink only coffee, he is shoving temptation right in his own face. Not too smart.

In a way, homosexuality is similar to alcoholism. I know you are thinking “What the heck??!!” Hear me out.

Alcoholism is a disorder of sorts. Alcoholics are not bad people just because they have this condition, and many of them stay clean and sober and live good lives. But drunkeness is still a sin, and the alcoholic bears a cross that most folks do not. Being an alcoholic is not bad but giving into it is.

Same-sex attraction is also a disorder. Yet, like the Alcoholic, homosexuals are not bad people just because they have same-sex attraction. Some, like you, stay chaste and live good lives. But homosexual sex is still a sin, and the homosexual bears a cross that most folks do not.

You may have some sort of “love” for this other person, but it is a feeling that has its genesis in a disordered desire and is not “authentic” love. There may be some authenticity to it in the sense that you love them as a person, but many of us love many people as persons but do not call them “partners”.

I fear that you have made a concious decision to do the right thing, which is fantastic, but that you are still hanging on to a little bit of the past. That is quite danngerous. You might make it work, but you might be setting yourself up for failure.

Crusader,

The tragedy of your parallel is that you are posting “once an Alcoholic always an Alcoholic” and that is just not true. It is only true for the 12 step religion of AA and the disease model that is also not true. This has been discussed here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=705972

If you are addicted is it a sin?

 

[jsaldar]

Thank you for your responses. I am glad to receive such supportive comments rather than hateful ones. There are some people who automatically assume that all homosexuals are destined for hell regardless of what their actual actions are.
This companion of mine is definitely the stronger of the two of us. She was born and raised Catholic and while she did go through a period of time when she strayed from her commitment due to the confusion caused by her sexuality, she now has a very strong resolve. I think that it is possible there could come a time when we both are weak but I really do think that we would be weak much more if we didn’t have each other. I know that if I didn’t have her, I would fall into impurity with myself or seek out someone at a bar or something. I am a very affectionate person and need to feel that closeness. But with her, we keep it pure and it is more based on spiritual and emotional support. Likewise she says that she also needs that, and her loneliness without me would drive her to impure actions as well. The real problem I think we face is the scandal it could cause. I think a lot of people can tell I’m homosexual by the way I dress in “tomboyish” clothing and when other Catholics see that we live together and spend so much time together, they probably assume we are sexually active. I don’t want to cause scandal. I want to do what’s right. I hope that more Catholics can be supportive, as many of you seem to be, and I wonder if there is a way to reassure people that we are not living in sin. But its not like you can just go around wearing a sign that says, “don’t worry, I’m celibate” or that one would ever want to. It helps to remember that God’s judgment is the one that matters. Again thank you for your comments.
Peace!

Welcome aboard!!

You two are very strong in your faith. I imagine it takes a lot of strength and love for your faith to keep each other celibate. Congratulations. Don’t worry about what others think, you can only be judged by God, and should therefore only worry about keeping the Lord happy. He alone can judge and knows you.

As I said welcome aboard this ship, in our faith we will have a lot of waves that will try to make us sink, but with trust in Our Lord we can remain afloat.

 

[Jonponwon]

Coptic Christian

(1) destroying priceless church artefacts and magnificent vestments

(2) communion rails ripped out and Protestant tables put in their place

(3) priests who no longer preach homilies on the gospels and other Bible texts but tell stories and jokes to catch your eye, seeking praise and adulation

(4) A swelling tide of modernism and liberalism

(5) scant attention to the wishes of the Holy Father

(6) lies about what Vaticn II actually said and the application instead of what modernist liberals wish it had said, allowing them to follow an agenda of false teaching

(7) in many cases preaching and teaching the very opposite of what the gospels say

(8) as a result of the “reforms” of Vaticn II the Church in the United Kingdom has been in virtual schism with the Holy See for four decades. The last truly Catholic Cardinal was Cardinal Heenan. Since then the hierarchy of the Church has been peopled by secularists tuned into the political climate and not the word of God.

Those are but a few of the heresies. Today very few Catholic Churches give you the Tridentine Mass, which was in place for 500 years before modernists tried to throw it out - and indeed for a time succeeded. And when the Pope said Bishops should allow Tridentine Masses if the people wanted them, the English Bishops continued to refuse requests for them, and in the end the Holy Father was forced to declare that people could have Tridentine masses without the need to obtain the consent of the Bishop. The Latin Mass Society flourishes and is packed with young people. A truly reverential Mass can be had from the SPPX, which is growing at an exponential rate. And what is happening to the rest of the Church? It has a congregation of the elderly, with few young people, a priesthood declining dramatically, and some congregations holding “masses” of the laity using hosts consecrated by a priest elsewhere. If this continues, we will in the end have nothing but lay masses with parishes ordering box- fulls of “consecrated hosts” for distribution.

Actually it is not Vatican II which is at fault. It is the intentions of those who have used it to promote an agenda of their own. Heresy,heresy, heresy, approaching sacrilege.

 

[CatholcCrusader]

Welcome to the Church.

I would advise extreme caution. It is actually a sin to place yourself in the “near occasion” of sin. For example, if an alcoholic who is staying clean and sober decides to sit in a bar every day to hang out with his friends and vows to drink only coffee, he is shoving temptation right in his own face. Not too smart.

In a way, homosexuality is similar to alcoholism. I know you are thinking “What the heck??!!” Hear me out.

Alcoholism is a disorder of sorts. Alcoholics are not bad people just because they have this condition, and many of them stay clean and sober and live good lives. But drunkeness is still a sin, and the alcoholic bears a cross that most folks do not. Being an alcoholic is not bad but giving into it is.

Same-sex attraction is also a disorder. Yet, like the Alcoholic, homosexuals are not bad people just because they have same-sex attraction. Some, like you, stay chaste and live good lives. But homosexual sex is still a sin, and the homosexual bears a cross that most folks do not.

You may have some sort of “love” for this other person, but it is a feeling that has its genesis in a disordered desire and is not “authentic” love. There may be some authenticity to it in the sense that you love them as a person, but many of us love many people as persons but do not call them “partners”.

I fear that you have made a concious decision to do the right thing, which is fantastic, but that you are still hanging on to a little bit of the past. That is quite danngerous. You might make it work, but you might be setting yourself up for failure.

Crusader,

The tragedy of your parallel is that you are posting “once an Alcoholic always an Alcoholic” and that is just not true…

Alcoholics differ with you. They say “once an Alcoholic always an Alcoholic”. They say they are always one drink away from a relapse. Many doctors say people are born with that condition and they don’t realize they have it unless they start to drink at some point in their lives.

Thats what they say. I am not making it up,

 

[CopticChristian]

Alcoholics differ with you. They say “once an Alcoholic always an Alcoholic”. They say they are always one drink away from a relapse. Many doctors say people are born with that condition and they don’t realize they have it unless they start to drink at some point in their lives.

Thats what they say. I am not making it up,

CatholicCrusader,

I am a physician and I am telling you that there are three schools of thought:

1. Alcoholism is a disease based on a bad study by a guy named Jellinek. The religion of 12 steps/AA promotes resolution by resolving character defects that are sin. They say once an alcoholic always an alcoholic and they are one drink away from a relapse. There is no data to prove that anyone is born with this condition. This paradigm teaches that you are your behavior.
2. Alcoholism is the Sin of Gluttony requiring repentance and virtue strenghtened by human effort. This paradigm teaches you are not your behavior.
3. Alcoholism is a habit that is resolved by value strengthening and once strengthened and the habit is resolved…the past is the past and you are not now once what you were. You are not your behavior.

You must be getting your information from the first school of thought.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic Christian

(1) destroying priceless church artefacts and magnificent vestments

(2) communion rails ripped out and Protestant tables put in their place

(3) priests who no longer preach homilies on the gospels and other Bible texts but tell stories and jokes to catch your eye, seeking praise and adulation

(4) A swelling tide of modernism and liberalism

(5) scant attention to the wishes of the Holy Father

(6) lies about what Vaticn II actually said and the application instead of what modernist liberals wish it had said, allowing them to follow an agenda of false teaching

(7) in many cases preaching and teaching the very opposite of what the gospels say

(8) as a result of the “reforms” of Vaticn II the Church in the United Kingdom has been in virtual schism with the Holy See for four decades. The last truly Catholic Cardinal was Cardinal Heenan. Since then the hierarchy of the Church has been peopled by secularists tuned into the political climate and not the word of God.

Those are but a few of the heresies. Today very few Catholic Churches give you the Tridentine Mass, which was in place for 500 years before modernists tried to throw it out - and indeed for a time succeeded. And when the Pope said Bishops should allow Tridentine Masses if the people wanted them, the English Bishops continued to refuse requests for them, and in the end the Holy Father was forced to declare that people could have Tridentine masses without the need to obtain the consent of the Bishop. The Latin Mass Society flourishes and is packed with young people. A truly reverential Mass can be had from the SPPX, which is growing at an exponential rate. And what is happening to the rest of the Church? It has a congregation of the elderly, with few young people, a priesthood declining dramatically, and some congregations holding “masses” of the laity using hosts consecrated by a priest elsewhere. If this continues, we will in the end have nothing but lay masses with parishes ordering box- fulls of “consecrated hosts” for distribution.

Actually it is not Vatican II which is at fault. It is the intentions of those who have used it to promote an agenda of their own. Heresy,heresy, heresy, approaching sacrilege.

Jon,

So you propose that the SSPX has more valid credentials of the Faith than the Catholic Church, is this correct?

 

[AB_Juney]

Ah. You’re one of those. No wonder I felt so irriated by you right off the bat.

Praise Jesus I wasn’t born into that kind of extremist family, where I’m taught even my dreams are a sin.

 

[CopticChristian]

Ah. You’re one of those. No wonder I felt so irriated by you right off the bat.

Praise Jesus I wasn’t born into that kind of extremist family, where I’m taught even my dreams are a sin.

AB,

Who or what are you addressing?

Ah. That is a mark of revelation.

No wonder. This suggests that you have concrete fact and or experience to formulate an opinion.

You say you were not born into that kind of extremist family. This comes right out of left field. Where did you get this notion about whatever it is you are speaking of?

 

[AB_Juney]

AB,

Who or what are you addressing?

Ah. That is a mark of revelation.

No wonder. This suggests that you have concrete fact and or experience to formulate an opinion.

You say you were not born into that kind of extremist family. This comes right out of left field. Where did you get this notion about whatever it is you are speaking of?

Not you

 

[CopticChristian]

Not you

AB,

That was a succint answer. Thank you.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Dakota Roberts you really take time and trouble over your posts, and that is a most admirable quality. Please accept my gratitude and admiration. Have you read the sayings of the desert fathers on the matter of sex? They are most interesting. The 4 volumes of the Philokalia that are in English alo have a wealth of material. But best of all, to my mind, is The Ladder of Divine Ascent by St John Climacus. He devotes an entire chapter to sex and it is the most profound exegesis I have ever read. You can also look with profit into the Institutes and Cinferences of St John Cassian. For some reason - and I suspect it was their absolutely one-pointed devotion to God - they achieved more than monks of later centuries, spiritually speaking, and defined the thinking of the Church until Vatican II, which loosed a Pandora’s box of heresies.

I take time and trouble over my posts? No, actually I’m just a signpost, it is all I am. No I have not read the desert fathers on the matter of sex, but it will be largely irrelevant to me seeing as I have no intention of ever engaging in sex. I am familiar with the Doctors of the Church of which neither of those two belong. Vatican II was not heretical nor contrary to the Church, what people thought it was (what was presented to them by secular media) was rather bad.

Welcome to the Church.

I would advise extreme caution. It is actually a sin to place yourself in the “near occasion” of sin. For example, if an alcoholic who is staying clean and sober decides to sit in a bar every day to hang out with his friends and vows to drink only coffee, he is shoving temptation right in his own face. Not too smart.

In a way, homosexuality is similar to alcoholism. I know you are thinking “What the heck??!!” Hear me out.

Alcoholism is a disorder of sorts. Alcoholics are not bad people just because they have this condition, and many of them stay clean and sober and live good lives. But drunkeness is still a sin, and the alcoholic bears a cross that most folks do not. Being an alcoholic is not bad but giving into it is.

Same-sex attraction is also a disorder. Yet, like the Alcoholic, homosexuals are not bad people just because they have same-sex attraction. Some, like you, stay chaste and live good lives. But homosexual sex is still a sin, and the homosexual bears a cross that most folks do not.

You may have some sort of “love” for this other person, but it is a feeling that has its genesis in a disordered desire and is not “authentic” love. There may be some authenticity to it in the sense that you love them as a person, but many of us love many people as persons but do not call them “partners”.

I fear that you have made a concious decision to do the right thing, which is fantastic, but that you are still hanging on to a little bit of the past. That is quite danngerous. You might make it work, but you might be setting yourself up for failure.

It is not inherently sinful to be in a near of occasion of sin. Spiritually unwise does not mean it is sinful.

Substance abuse in general is how a lot of people cope, but now we have all these pretty prescription pills that help reduce stress in a way that is less harmful to our bodies.

Alcoholism is a bad comparison as it isn’t necessarily sinful, it is sinful when it deprives one of their sense of reason which drinking lots of alcohol does not necessarily do (some people do lose motor control, but some barely had it to begin with).

Coptic Christian

(1) destroying priceless church artefacts and magnificent vestments

(2) communion rails ripped out and Protestant tables put in their place

(3) priests who no longer preach homilies on the gospels and other Bible texts but tell stories and jokes to catch your eye, seeking praise and adulation

(4) A swelling tide of modernism and liberalism

(5) scant attention to the wishes of the Holy Father

(6) lies about what Vaticn II actually said and the application instead of what modernist liberals wish it had said, allowing them to follow an agenda of false teaching

(7) in many cases preaching and teaching the very opposite of what the gospels say

(8) as a result of the “reforms” of Vaticn II the Church in the United Kingdom has been in virtual schism with the Holy See for four decades. The last truly Catholic Cardinal was Cardinal Heenan. Since then the hierarchy of the Church has been peopled by secularists tuned into the political climate and not the word of God.

Those are but a few of the heresies. Today very few Catholic Churches give you the Tridentine Mass, which was in place for 500 years before modernists tried to throw it out - and indeed for a time succeeded. And when the Pope said Bishops should allow Tridentine Masses if the people wanted them, the English Bishops continued to refuse requests for them, and in the end the Holy Father was forced to declare that people could have Tridentine masses without the need to obtain the consent of the Bishop. The Latin Mass Society flourishes and is packed with young people. A truly reverential Mass can be had from the SPPX, which is growing at an exponential rate. And what is happening to the rest of the Church? It has a congregation of the elderly, with few young people, a priesthood declining dramatically, and some congregations holding “masses” of the laity using hosts consecrated by a priest elsewhere. If this continues, we will in the end have nothing but lay masses with parishes ordering box- fulls of “consecrated hosts” for distribution.

Actually it is not Vatican II which is at fault. It is the intentions of those who have used it to promote an agenda of their own. Heresy,heresy, heresy, approaching sacrilege.

Many people lied about what was in Vatican II, I don’t see how that makes it Vatican II’s fault. Are you actually praising SSPX?