Being respectful and firm at the same time?

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Setting boundaries says nothing about your respect for your parents. It is about their respect for you.

This. I think it takes a big shift in one’s mind to really accept this. I know that when I was younger I always used to think in a defensive way: if he does/says x to me then I have to respond by doing/saying y, and hopefully that will show him I’m serious.

Being firm doesn’t mean being unkind and disrespectful. Of course, the attacker will always play the disrespect card and accuse you of all sorts of things, but that doesn’t make it true. I’m wondering if you are still thinking about this as you have been conditioned to think: you are not disrespectful in reality but fear what her perception is because her perception is supposedly true.

I believe that this is the first hurdle that must be overcome.

 

[DarkLight]

This. I think it takes a big shift in one’s mind to really accept this. I know that when I was younger I always used to think in a defensive way: if he does/says x to me then I have to respond by doing/saying y, and hopefully that will show him I’m serious.

Being firm doesn’t mean being unkind and disrespectful. Of course, the attacker will always play the disrespect card and accuse you of all sorts of things, but that doesn’t make it true. I’m wondering if you are still thinking about this as you have been conditioned to think: you are not disrespectful in reality but fear what her perception is because her perception is supposedly true.

I believe that this is the first hurdle that must be overcome.

Somewhat. Part of it is, for me, the primary definitions I learned of what is respectful or disrespectful came from her. So I’m finding I’m having to negotiate what is actually respectful or disrespectful to say to a parent without any sort of decent real life guidance.

 

[Xantippe]

DarkLight said:

“Part of it is, for me, the primary definitions I learned of what is respectful or disrespectful came from her.”

Yes, that is a problem.

If “respectful” and “agrees with mom” were synonymous, we wouldn’t need two different ways to say exactly the same thing.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Somewhat. Part of it is, for me, the primary definitions I learned of what is respectful or disrespectful came from her. So I’m finding I’m having to negotiate what is actually respectful or disrespectful to say to a parent without any sort of decent real life guidance.

Makes sense. We learn these things in the family, after all.

I hope that CAF is this guidance that you need in order to figure things out.

In case you are worried about offending God in this, please always remember that our motivation is crucial. For example, are you trying to punish your mother for treating you badly, or trying to protect yourself by doing everything you can to respect her dignity at the same time?

Hope this helps.

 

[DarkLight]

Makes sense. We learn these things in the family, after all.

I hope that CAF is this guidance that you need in order to figure things out.

In case you are worried about offending God in this, please always remember that our motivation is crucial. For example, are you trying to punish your mother for treating you badly, or trying to protect yourself by doing everything you can to respect her dignity at the same time?

Hope this helps.

Thanks. The part I’m stuck on most is how to communicate exactly what behavior is unacceptable. I’m doing ok with certain topics, but I want to be able to communicate a bit more. E.g. right now I’ve just straight-out said “I will not discuss religion.” I’d like to open that up to “I will discuss religion, but only if you respect my research and don’t try to manipulate me or call me names.” But from her perspective she’s not doing any of those things, so the answer is “How dare you accuse me of that!”

 

[Avila123]

From the OP, it is not clear how old your parents are.

If they are over 60 or even older, please think about whether they are beginning to suffer from one of the illnesses suffered by the elderly. These things start slowly. I don’t want to be a gloom and doom merchant, but what if your answer to one of the trying comments is the last words your mother or father will hear from you before they reach the stage where it isn’t possible to have a rational conversation with one or the other.

If your parents are younger, then disregard this.

 

[DarkLight]

From the OP, it is not clear how old your parents are.

If they are over 60 or even older, please think about whether they are beginning to suffer from one of the illnesses suffered by the elderly. These things start slowly. I don’t want to be a gloom and doom merchant, but what if your answer to one of the trying comments is the last words your mother or father will hear from you before they reach the stage where it isn’t possible to have a rational conversation with one or the other.

If your parents are younger, then disregard this.

They’re younger, though not by much. But the real thing is that this is ALWAYS how my mother has been. The problem isn’t that her behavior has changed - it’s that her behavior hasn’t changed from when I was a teenage girl. She’s still trying to “discipline” me as though I was a rebellious child. I was dependent for a lot longer than many young adults because I had (and still have) serious health issues, and this was always an excuse to treat me as though I were still a child, or a young adult who was just being irresponsible. I’m trying to give her the best chance I can to have an appropriate relationship with me, now.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

Thanks. The part I’m stuck on most is how to communicate exactly what behavior is unacceptable. I’m doing ok with certain topics, but I want to be able to communicate a bit more. E.g. right now I’ve just straight-out said “I will not discuss religion.” I’d like to open that up to “I will discuss religion, but only if you respect my research and don’t try to manipulate me or call me names.” But from her perspective she’s not doing any of those things, so the answer is “How dare you accuse me of that!”

And that is why, for now, you probably can’t open up the discussion to “only if you respect…” Because she doesn’t know the difference between respecting and not respecting. So for now, it is better to make it totally off limits, because you need to set a new dynamic in your relationship that recognizes your right to NOT talk about something. Once things have calmed down and you feel secure in your ability to be together without being treated disrespectfully, you might choose to widen the boundaries. I wouldn’t assume it will happen though. If your mom has spent your whole life being disrespectful to your opinions, or to the opinions of whoever disagrees with her, then there is a good chance that agreeing not to discuss it will be the best you can reasonably expect.

That said, the way I would phrase a looser boundary is this: “I am not going to argue or be defensive. If you are interested to know why I do or think something, I am happy to answer your question, but I am not going to argue.” Then if you start answering a question and she starts arguing with you, you stop and say, “Clearly, you don’t want to know what I think - you just want to argue with me. I already told you I’m not going to argue, so I guess we can’t discuss this.” The point is, the way you have a respectful discussion, is to talk about it as though you don’t care that the person disagrees with you. For example, when I was growing up, I had a very good friend who was Jewish, and we would often discuss the similarities and differences between our religions. We NEVER argued about why we believed we were right (even though we both thought the other was wrong), because we were ok with the other person being who they were. So we just talked because it was interesting, and we genuinely wanted to know about each others’ faiths. This is much harder to do with family, where the stakes are higher, but a respectful conversation often has to be limited to questions and answers, and not argument. That’s not to say that there is no room in the world for respectful debate or conversation with the hopes of convincing, but because it is so hard to have those conversations calmly and respectfully, it is often better to not attempt it with close relatives, especially when the relationship is shaky.

 

[DarkLight]

I guess that makes sense. What I’d like to get across to her is that things like “childish/immature/rebellious” can also be namecalling, and aren’t appropriate. I’ve been frustrated that anything I do that she doesn’t like is “immature” or “rebellious”, and thus justifies her treating me like a child.

 

[Xantippe]

DarkLight said:

“What I’d like to get across to her is that things like “childish/immature/rebellious” can also be namecalling, and aren’t appropriate. I’ve been frustrated that anything I do that she doesn’t like is “immature” or “rebellious”, and thus justifies her treating me like a child.”

You probably are a little less mature around your mom–I’ve noticed that a lot of young adults seem to regress around their mothers. This fact means that it’s relatively difficult for parents to assess the maturity of their own children, as their very presence alters the phenomenon.

Speak respectfully to her (it’s the “but mom!” verbiage that sounds really immature, even when very much provoked), end interactions when she is being disrespectful and if she persists, helpfully offer to make an appointment for both of you to talk to your pastor (or therapist or some other authority figure who is familiar with your situation) for mediation. I suspect that she will watch her ps and qs a lot better when there’s a third party present. It might be a very good thing for your relationship for her to get some practice in treating you like an independent young adult.

 

[PartoftheBody]

It seems that some parents have a much harder time than others at adjusting to their children becoming adults, and it sounds like your mom is one of those parents.

I had a similar situation with my mom taking it personally when I didn’t do what she wanted, even if it was an unreasonable request. My siblings got her to stop with them by arguing or yelling at her, but that didn’t seem like a satisfactory solution to me.

I took the approach of being calm, concise, and consistent, and I chose my battles. When she asked me to do something that was burdensome for me, I’d simply say, “I’m sorry, I can’t do that.” Then I’d repeat it in the same calm tone as many times as it took for her to get the idea. Going into details about the reasons would only give her fuel to take it personally, e.g. “you think that going to your best friend’s birthday party is more important than coming to my house and helping me get ready for my dinner party. You must not love me!”

Also, I appreciate you wanting her to tell her that her behavior is unacceptable, but I doubt it will work with her. It sounds like she gets so defensive when you point these things out that she can’t hear what you are saying. What might work better is gradually getting her to realize it for herself. Of course, this approach take a bit longer, but it’s better for everyone in the long run.
Perhaps try to have some responses on hand that acknowledge what she says, but respect your autonomy, such as,
“I will keep that in mind. I’ll really need to think about that more before I make a decision.”
“Thanks for your opinion”
“I don’t know, mom, I guess I’ll just have to see for myself”
“Well, I guess that’s just one of those things that every young woman has to learn for herself from experience”
“Mom, I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut, but I really need to do this my own way”
“That’s an interesting idea”
[Of course, tone is everything with expressions like these. If you sounds angry or sarcastic when you say them, they don’t work]

 

[DarkLight]

It seems that some parents have a much harder time than others at adjusting to their children becoming adults, and it sounds like your mom is one of those parents.

I had a similar situation with my mom taking it personally when I didn’t do what she wanted, even if it was an unreasonable request. My siblings got her to stop with them by arguing or yelling at her, but that didn’t seem like a satisfactory solution to me.

I took the approach of being calm, concise, and consistent, and I chose my battles. When she asked me to do something that was burdensome for me, I’d simply say, “I’m sorry, I can’t do that.” Then I’d repeat it in the same calm tone as many times as it took for her to get the idea. Going into details about the reasons would only give her fuel to take it personally, e.g. “you think that going to your best friend’s birthday party is more important than coming to my house and helping me get ready for my dinner party. You must not love me!”

Also, I appreciate you wanting her to tell her that her behavior is unacceptable, but I doubt it will work with her. It sounds like she gets so defensive when you point these things out that she can’t hear what you are saying. What might work better is gradually getting her to realize it for herself. Of course, this approach take a bit longer, but it’s better for everyone in the long run.
Perhaps try to have some responses on hand that acknowledge what she says, but respect your autonomy, such as,
“I will keep that in mind. I’ll really need to think about that more before I make a decision.”
“Thanks for your opinion”
“I don’t know, mom, I guess I’ll just have to see for myself”
“Well, I guess that’s just one of those things that every young woman has to learn for herself from experience”
“Mom, I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut, but I really need to do this my own way”
“That’s an interesting idea”
[Of course, tone is everything with expressions like these. If you sounds angry or sarcastic when you say them, they don’t work]

The bolded part is most definitely true. The trouble I’m having is that taking the “just let it be” approach seems to be resulting in escalation on her part. I start using likes like “I’ll consider that”, and a bit later that line too is now an evidence of “disrespect.” She pulls out the “you’re just saying that to get me to go away” line a lot now. And then she tries to put pressure on for me to promise a specific change right away.

You probably are a little less mature around your mom–I’ve noticed that a lot of young adults seem to regress around their mothers. This fact means that it’s relatively difficult for parents to assess the maturity of their own children, as their very presence alters the phenomenon.

Speak respectfully to her (it’s the “but mom!” verbiage that sounds really immature, even when very much provoked), end interactions when she is being disrespectful and if she persists, helpfully offer to make an appointment for both of you to talk to your pastor (or therapist or some other authority figure who is familiar with your situation) for mediation. I suspect that she will watch her ps and qs a lot better when there’s a third party present. It might be a very good thing for your relationship for her to get some practice in treating you like an independent young adult.

Honestly part of the problem is that I feel like I have to be the mature one around the house to her tantrums. It’s not a good feeling like you’re trying to be the adult to your own mother. We had exactly one session of family therapy once - she was very nice and polite in the session…and then took it out on us in fury afterwards. How DARE we slander her like that in front of the therapist. And that’s part of the problem - I’ve gotten to the point where it seems like any indication from me that her behavior might need to change is something she considers immature/disrespectful. Or not changing a behavior she thinks I ought to change.

 

[Xantippe]

DarkLight:

“She pulls out the “you’re just saying that to get me to go away” line a lot now.”

Oooh–she’s on to it.

Maybe say, “Yes, I don’t think we should talk about this right now.” And then if she doesn’t respect that, cut the conversation short or leave.

What you’ve been describing of her behavior sounds really off. Could she have some sort of mental illness or personality disorder? What you’re describing is pretty off the charts, even for pushy mothers.

If you have a therapist, I think she should probably be one of your main subjects.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I’ve gotten to the point where it seems like any indication from me that her behavior might need to change is something she considers immature/disrespectful. Or not changing a behavior she thinks I ought to change.

Are you prepared to give up, accept her as she is and live your life with this disappointment?
This acceptance would include finding a way of surviving through your visits, setting boundaries, and having a rather superficial relationship, as sad as that is.

I did that with my father. It is a very sad realisation, heart-breaking really. But experience has taught me that if I carry on hitting my head against the brick wall, my head will break but not the wall. I decided at one point to take care of my head.

I don’t want to sound like a pessimist who doesn’t believe that things can change for the better. But with some people they just can’t. We can’t change others and their behaviour, we can only change our own. It would be tragic if this dysfunctional relationship were to poison your life. I have 3 friends - all adult women - whose dysfunctional relationships with their mothers are poisoning their lives. And they are stuck, trying to please, hoping for change, playing the game, 2 out of 3 are going to counselling because this relationship is affecting their marriages and family life. I wonder if it is better to let go and let God, accept this sad state of affairs and hope that all will be rectified in the next life.

 

[Xantippe]

Contra mundum said:

“Are you prepared to give up, accept her as she is and live your life with this disappointment?
This acceptance would include finding a way of surviving through your visits, setting boundaries, and having a rather superficial relationship, as sad as that is.”

That sounds very wise.

 

[PartoftheBody]

How about a simple, “I’m sorry you feel that way” and end the conversation?

Not “I’m sorry” as in you are taking blame for it, but “I’m sorry” as in “that’s a shame.”