Beleiver in the church catholic…

[Pax]

Shibboleth:

Can I get a simple “yes” or “no” answer if catholics beleive that they are saved by God’s Grace alone.

Just a thought…While it may be reasonable to ask for a simple “yes” or “no” answer, it’s not always reasonable for the respondent to supply one. The area of justification has certain complexities that can’t be ignored. “Yes” we are saved by grace alone but within that are certain things that need to be stated to be consistent with scripture. That is why I structured my previous post as have others the way we did.

Please be patient, especially with me, for I am able to butcher my own logic and thoughts without intention. So even if you ask for the simple answer you might not get it. I like to run on so giving a simple answer isn’t easy for me. So I apologize for that part of it. Keep posting…there’s much to discuss

 

[Maggie]

Shibboleth:

Can I get a simple “yes” or “no” answer if catholics beleive that they are saved by God’s Grace alone.

Yes you can. And yes we do. We are saved by God’s grace alone.

We have at any point the free will to accept it or reject it.

I think what gets confusing in the faith vs. works argument is the faith alone (once saved/always saved) belief means essentially to us that you would never be free again to reject God’s grace again… hence you would not really have been saved if you ever sinned after claiming to have been saved. For if you are perpetually saved from that moment on, how could you sin?

What we believe is that in accepting the possibility of salvation, you accept God’s grace in overcoming each temptation as you face it. Christ died for our sins. That is the source of our salvation. But we continue to have free will even after we accept that fact. God’s continued grace in our lives gives us the strength to overcome temptation and sin. Christ died for us so that we would have salvation, but we can still reject that salvation by not allowing His presence in our lives. We can’t simply acknowledge the fact of his death on the cross, we have to accept His continual presence in our lives.

I’m not a theologist, so please forgive me if I haven’t put this in the most exact terms. It’s something I struggled with for years, but what you will find is that the peace it brings when you no longer have to wonder if “that one time” you accepted Christ you did it “right” because now you know how to live with God’s grace on a regular basis and you realize that it’s an ongoing process not a one-time thing, you will go on your knees and praise God for hours…

 

[Shibboleth]

I have another odd question to ask. The Catholic Church professes that the Saints will carry your prayers to God. I hope I am right on this assumption. Why not just pray to God, do you think that it will fall on deaf ears or that the Saints will do for you what praying directly to God cannot?

 

[funkyhorn]

Shibboleth:

Jimmy Akin is what brought me to this forum. I listen to him every Thursday on Catholic Answers Live, when I can get the reception. The man is brilliant and there are few people in this world that I respect as much as him, at least as far as opinions go.

Dito on that. Do you have the Bible Answer Man Debate with Akin vs. White? If not, you should get it. I believe Catholic Answers has it for sale. They debate things like Sola Scriptura, Justification, as well as other things. In this debate, I believe Akin says that Sola Gratia is the Church’s infallable teaching. We CAN’T do anything meritorious aside from God’s grace. We can’t even ask the question, “how can I be saved” without God’s grace. The belief is that God gives everyone sufficient grace for salvation, but it is our responsibility to act on that grace (free will).

 

[Maggie]

Pax:

It is probably more appropriate to say that we are saved by grace alone, based on the merits of Jesus Christ, through faith working in love, but not by “faith alone.”

Okay, Pax says it so much better!!! (Not to mention in fewer words )

 

[cmom]

Shibboleth:

I have another odd question to ask. The Catholic Church professes that the Saints will carry your prayers to God. I hope I am right on this assumption. Why not just pray to God, do you think that it will fall on deaf ears or that the Saints will do for you what praying directly to God cannot?

When you are sick and want prayers, do you pray by yourself or do you ask friends to pray for you as well?

To a Catholic, Saints are the Church Triumphant, the part of the Body of Christ already in heaven. They are family just like your aunts and uncles are family. So when I want something important I pray to God Almighty And ask my family in heaven to pray as well.

 

[Shibboleth]

I posted this on another thread but I feel that it should also go here. One of my Lutheran friends said this….

“I don’t think we can say that “this moment” (of salvation), begins at birth or conception. From our conception, we are in enmity with God. Salvation is freely offered to all from the minute we come into being. God has chosen the normal means of grace for that. It is baptism. I think the first time we can say one is typically “saved” (yes, there are exceptions) is as soon as they have been made a disciple and have been joined to the body of Christ in baptism. In Lutheran theology, baptism is not an “acceptance” of a gift, because God does all of the work in baptism. That work is spiritual, but nonetheless real and not symbolic. So, semantically speaking, I think even God does the unwrapping. The clergy, Christian community, and sponsors are merely vehicles of God’s deed. Lutherans do put a heavy emphasis on baptism; and place it within the normal “equation” for salvation. So, the gift metaphor would work more like this, I think: Before we are even conceived, there is a gift with our name on it. It was carefully wrapped for us 2,000 years ago. God unwraps that present for us (as one would a gift for an infant- despite our age) in the waters of baptism. Even when we reject the gift, God never discards it; but continually holds it before us.
The problem with the metaphor is this: do we ever grab the gift back? No, we never do any meritous work towards our salvation. I think of it more like eternal sunshine: God continually showers us with the gift of salvation. We are able to erect a parasol and “hide” from that grace (reject it); but we are never in charge of the on/off switch of the sun’s light and we are not given the credit for our rosy cheeks by our not using a parasol: because God’s is the sunshine that caused them.”

 

[Poisson]

Shibboleth:

I do have some things to voice though on some of the behavior that I have seen by Catholic followers.

I have heard on Catholic Answers Live, this bulletin board, and others resentment towards Vatican II and some of the current issues of the Catholic Church. If you are going to hold the original Greek Church Fathers in high regard and believe their wisdom to be true then you must also put your faith in the current church fathers that their wisdom is also good and true. That is the strength of the Catholic Church.

I don’t believe that Catholic Answers and other conservative voices in the church have a problem or resent Vatican II, at least not from what I have heard on the show. What I think you are hearing is a problem with what some more liberal voices have tried to turn Vatican II into. Some have read into the documents of Vatican II things the documents have never intended and call it “the spirit of Vatican II”.
I would rather go by what the documents actually say rather than what I want them to say.

 

[Maggie]

Shibboleth:

I have another odd question to ask. The Catholic Church professes that the Saints will carry your prayers to God. I hope I am right on this assumption. Why not just pray to God, do you think that it will fall on deaf ears or that the Saints will do for you what praying directly to God cannot?

This one’s easy… again took me awhile too… God hears your prayers, absolutely. Think of it like getting your big brother to ask your dad for something for you. They might have a better chance of convincing dad that it really is a good idea rather than just a whim. “Dad I’ve got this hot date with this really cute girl can I borrow the car” might not work , but when your brother says “Dad she’s a really nice girl from a good family” you might just get your wish. You get the idea. Your big brother has a better sense of how to phrase the question than you do .

 

[Shibboleth]

Poisson:

I don’t believe that Catholic Answers and other conservative voices in the church have a problem or resent Vatican II, at least not from what I have heard on the show.

It was the callers that I was referring to, sorry about the confusion.

 

[Pax]

Shibboleth:

I have another odd question to ask. The Catholic Church professes that the Saints will carry your prayers to God. I hope I am right on this assumption. Why not just pray to God, do you think that it will fall on deaf ears or that the Saints will do for you what praying directly to God cannot?

I would suggest a book entitled Any Friend of God’s is a Friend of Mine. by Patrick Madrid. In this book Madrid explains the communion of saints. John Martignoni also has a great tape on the communion of saints. There is a lot of ground to cover on this subject and I cannot do it justice in a short post. The bible is clearly supportive of the idea of prayer to the saints, and in no way suggests that we should not.

I would agree that we can go straight to God with our prayers, but I think in humility we are well served by asking those that are more worthy to also pray for us. The book of Hebrews makes mention of the saints in heaven as “the souls of just men made perfect.” And James tells us that “the prayer of a just man availeth much.” Well, I like the idea of those that are just and made perfect praying on my behalf, just as I hope that those that are still living on earth will pray on my behalf. I just think that those that are closer to God, as illustrated by Job versus his friends, will “availeth much.” Moreover, the Book of Revelations tells us that the elders “carry bowls of incense, which are the prayers of the saints,” to the altar.

One thing is for certain…we could all use a lot more prayer

 

[Pax]

Maggie,

You are far too generous, but thanks!

 

[Boomer_Sooner]

I think it’s great that you’re asking questions about these topics. It shows that you are sincerely searching for the truth.

Before you convert to the Lutheran Church, I have a great recommendation… There is a set of 3 audio tapes or CDs called Luther: The Rest of the Story by Ken Hensley. I highly, highly recommend it. It is one of the best audio tapes I have listened to! I think you’d really like it and it might help you in your journey! God Bless.

 

[srkbdk]

Shibboleth:

I have another odd question to ask. The Catholic Church professes that the Saints will carry your prayers to God. I hope I am right on this assumption. Why not just pray to God, do you think that it will fall on deaf ears or that the Saints will do for you what praying directly to God cannot?

Will you pray for myself and my children that no matter what we face in life we will seek God’s will?

From reading what you write I believe you will, how much more so can the saints in heaven honestly pray for us when unencumbered by the earthly life?

 

[BobCatholic]

Shibboleth:

Can I get a simple “yes” or “no” answer if catholics beleive that they are saved by God’s Grace alone.

To find that out, ask the Pillar of Truth.

CCC 1697 a catechesis of grace, for it is by grace that we are saved and again it is by grace that our works can bear fruit for eternal life;

CCC 981 In this Church, the soul dead through sin comes back to life in order to live with Christ, whose grace has saved us.

 

[BobCatholic]

Shibboleth:

I have another odd question to ask. The Catholic Church professes that the Saints will carry your prayers to God.

That is, if you ask them.

I hope I am right on this assumption. Why not just pray to God, do you think that it will fall on deaf ears or that the Saints will do for you what praying directly to God cannot?

If someone asks you to pray for them, do you tell them to
“Shut up, and pray to God yourself!” or do you follow 1 timothy 2:1?

I already know the answer you’re going to give, and that answers your question.

 

[GeorgeCooney]

Maggie:

Shibboleth - thank you for sharing that. That kept me away from the Church for years, and I understand where you are coming from. I didn’t have problems with the Church, I was more afraid of the problems the Church would have with me . But finally I had to come to peace with that and realize that it was where God’s truth was and where I had to be, whether I agreed with His plan or not. I had, finally, a choice to answer God’s call and obey, or not. What I found is that once I obeyed, the answers came easier and the truth was plainer to see.

Boy do I agree with you here!! I can’t tell you how disheartening it is to hear people who think that they are being good Catholics berate the Church because it has “changed” when the reality is that to be a good Catholic one must accept the authority of the Church at all times. Once it’s been declared (and I can never get the wording right) to be true, it is. Vatican II is infallible, it’s not wrong, not improper, not going against truth. It’s hard to see people take it as “going the wrong way” when that is in itself an anti-Catholic stance . I am so glad you said something.

I’m glad you’re here, and I’m glad you are on your journey.

You are correct about Catholics berating the Church and denying the authority of the Vatican II Conciliar Documents. This is wrong and in many cases sinful. The mistake that is made is one of short-cut language. Most people who acuse the Church really are talking about the mortal beings that are members of the** Church** here on earth. We are all fallible and make some whopping mistakes. That includes the Pope, except when declaring Truth or Pontifical Authority within specifically defined limits. The Church which is the Body of Christ and consists of three divisions: the Church Militant, the Church Suffering, and the Church Triumphant, with Christ as its Head, never makes a mistake, and never changes, adds, or deletes any dogma.

But, in this post Vatican II era we have scores upon scores of the hierarchy and presbyters proclaiming all kinds of heresy, blasphemy, and error. Further, MOST of the claims about Vatican II are completely false. I have read ALL of the Vatican II Consiliar Documents a number of times and am flabbergasted at the claims made on the authority of those documents. Let me mention first thet Vatican II is a pastoral council and did not deal with infallible doctrine, except in a few cases to re-affirm those beliefs.

It would be too fatiguing to list even all the major misquotes of Vatican II, but here are a few. First, the so-called “spirit” of Vatican II is almost an absolute signal that you are about to hear a gross misquote or misapplication of Vatican II. Latin is retained by Vatican II as the official Church language and there is not suggestion or requirement for changes to the vernacular. Communion in the hand was not authorized by Vatican II, but remained forbidden until massive disobedience prompted a great error (in my opinion) of issuing an indult in response to the disobedience. Moving of the Blessed Sacrament from a central and prominent position in the church is not authorized, except for those church buildings where there is extensive public use other than Catholic services. (St. Peter’s in Rome, St. Patrick’s in New York, Notre Dame in Paris, and such situations). Vatican II does not authorize the sharing of the pastor’s or priest’s authority with the laity, the priest remains in TOTAL charge. Vatican II does not change the doctrine that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. Vatican II does not allow any denial that the **Catholic Church ** has anything less than the complete fullness of the Truth revealed by God through Divine Revelation, Sacred Scriptures, and Sacred Tradition, and that no other church has that fullness of Truth. Vatican II did not forbid the use of the “Tridentine” Mass. There are hundreds of others.

Many of the changes, falsely attributd to Vatican II, are directed toward the lessening of adoration, awe, and respect for the Holy Eucharist. They have been most effective in a massive reduction in the number of “Cathoics” who believe in the Real Presence.

I hope this will show you that some of us all the time, and all of us some time use language in a careless way to express our frustrations. The Church remains One, Holy, Universal, and Apostolic, AND unchanged. The Vatican II Counciliar Documents remain authoritative, but grossly misapplied and misquoted by many.

 

[Shibboleth]

In reference to the Saints and prayer. I understand what is being said but even if the whole world prayed on one thing I do not think that it would carry any more weight than the prayer of one person. The Saints can undoubtedly pray far better and eloquently than I ever could, but does not God know what’s in our hearts better than anyone?

My last and final question of the day is this: Does the Catholic Church believe that people of other denominations will find their way into heaven? Outside of the Church there is no salvation?

 

[Shibboleth]

Sorry I missed the tread on the salvation issue. I will never become Catholic because I do not think that I will ever agree that knowing protestants will not receive salvation. It does not seem Christ-like. Ask yourself, if you could die so that another Christian, be it protestant or otherwise, could achieve salvation would you? I would. I do not think that I am above Christ in my mercy, so it must be him that is speaking through me.

 

[Maggie]

Shibboleth:

In reference to the Saints and prayer. I understand what is being said but even if the whole world prayed on one thing I do not think that it would carry any more weight than the prayer of one person. The Saints can undoubtedly pray far better and eloquently than I ever could, but does not God know what’s in our hearts better than anyone?

Yes he does. And I believe (here I speak for myself) that he always answers every prayer. But I also believe that the answer isn’t always yes. Sometimes the answer is no. And by asking others to pray for us and with us, sometimes we get a more full answer with that no… as in “this really isn’t in your best interest and let me explain…” When you take the time to engage others, including the saints, in your struggles, He takes the time to encourage you…by being more open with God and with others about God, we open ourselves more to His grace.

GeorgeCooney:

I hope this will show you that some of us all the time, and all of us some time use language in a careless way to express our frustrations. The Church remains One, Holy, Universal, and Apostolic, AND unchanged. The Vatican II Counciliar Documents remain authoritative, but grossly misapplied and misquoted by many.

Thank you SO much for assisting us with that clarification George! It helps more than you know!!