Beleiver in the church catholic…

[srkbdk]

Shibboleth:

In reference to the Saints and prayer. I understand what is being said but even if the whole world prayed on one thing I do not think that it would carry any more weight than the prayer of one person. The Saints can undoubtedly pray far better and eloquently than I ever could, but does not God know what’s in our hearts better than anyone?

My last and final question of the day is this: Does the Catholic Church believe that people of other denominations will find their way into heaven? Outside of the Church there is no salvation?

Shibboleth by using your logic of God already knowing our hearts (which he does better than we do), we should not pray at all. The point is we are commanded to pray and to pray for one another. Someone in Heaven is not less my brother or sister but more so.

And in an answer to your last question yes she does and has always taught that people without the truth of the faith handed to us by Jesus still have the possiblity of heaven (it is harder because you do not have all the weapons he left us to help us). The problem arises when you have knowldge of the truth and refuse it anyway. That is using your free will to walk away from what God has taught.

For me it comes down to two questions:

1. Is there a God? if yes goto question 2
2. Did he give us rules to live by and who has authority over these rules by him?

I know the only answer to 1 is YES and the only logical, faith based answer to 2 I am aware of is the Catholic Faith.

God Bless and have a great night.

 

[srkbdk]

Shibboleth:

I will never become Catholic because I do not think that I will ever agree that knowing protestants will not receive salvation. .

The Church nowhere says this.

What it says in laymans terms is this. IF you know the truth and reject it you are in deeeeeeep do do.

 

[Pax]

Shibboleth:

In reference to the Saints and prayer. I understand what is being said but even if the whole world prayed on one thing I do not think that it would carry any more weight than the prayer of one person.

It does carry more weight if the whole world prayed for something. It is clear from scripture that even though God knows our hearts, He still wants us to pray, and to pray for one another. If additional praying did not carry more weight, than scripture would not direct us to make supplications for one another (see Eph 6:18).

 

[Shibboleth]

He wants us to pray for one another for our ears not his. If we pray for one another then we will help one another. If we all chose to pray for peace, it would come about not because he heard our plea but because we were all following the will of God.

 

[Shibboleth]

Continuing…Prayer is for our sake not for God’s. You do not need to touch the robes of Jesus to heal your servant. When we give a prayer of thanks do you think that he needs such things, he is self-sufficient and knows that all that he does is good and that he is great. We give thanks in prayer to remind ourselves of his greatness, to reaffirm our beliefs and realign ourselves to his path.

 

[Pax]

Shibboleth:

Sorry I missed the tread on the salvation issue. I will never become Catholic because I do not think that I will ever agree that knowing protestants will not receive salvation. It does not seem Christ-like. Ask yourself, if you could die so that another Christian, be it protestant or otherwise, could achieve salvation would you? I would. I do not think that I am above Christ in my mercy, so it must be him that is speaking through me.

Knowledge of the truth revealed by God has its requirements. Christians agree that salvation is through Jesus Christ. Christians would also agree that a professed atheist, that came to “know” that there is a God and that His divine son, Jesus, died for our sins, would have to embrace the truth or perish. Rejection of God is not an option.

The same applies to a non-catholic christian that comes to the knowledge that the catholic church is, indeed, the one true church. We are not given the option of rejecting what God has revealed to us. This rejection is serious sin especially since we are placing our own judgement and preferences over the Lord’s.

 

[Pax]

Shibboleth:

He wants us to pray for one another for our ears not his. If we pray for one another then we will help one another. If we all chose to pray for peace, it would come about not because he heard our plea but because we were all following the will of God.

Where in scripture does it say that God wants us to pray for one another for our ears not his? Most of the prayers we say for one another are said in private anyway. Obviously, when it’s private prayer the other person we are praying for never hears it. If your statement were correct we might as well just have a nice chat with one another.

 

[Pax]

Shibboleth:

I do not think that I am above Christ in my mercy, so it must be him that is speaking through me.

There is no logical connection between the first and second half of this statement.

 

[Maggie]

Shibboleth - first let me thank you for being here and being so open and honest. It is a blessing to all of us because it challenges us and it makes us dig deeper and you do it very charitably indeed.

When it comes to the salvation through the Catholic church only, it’s something that someone who is examining the church for the first time always runs smack up against. Now, I’m going to start at the beginning… you are wondering about protestants, but I am going to go back three steps. My sister, who is a kind, loving, generous, giving person is an atheist. I know some catholics and protestants who are not nearly as generous and giving. In fact, I know some catholics and protestants who are not nice people at all. Which of those deserves to go to hell in your opinion?

I’ll give you my opinion… God’s calling all of them. Back into His fold. Someday my sister will admit to God’s existence and come back to His Church. Those catholics and protestants who have God on their lips but not in their hearts will repent and once God is in their hearts their search for Truth will lead them to the Church. But none of them are in my hands, they are all in God’s. But how I live my life and how I treat God and Church will speak volumes to all three (okay so I might add a few words here and there ). And that is where my responsibility to God lies. It isn’t my place to judge the destination of any of them, or when and where God’s call happens, so I will continue to live as though everyone will hear it and welcome it and come.

There are members here who will do a better job quoting theology than I will. But let me at least quote the piece that I found that put me at peace… “There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer” and further if you have a pocket Catechism (sorry, it’s all I have) on page 244 where they discuss no salvation outside the Church see what they say “…Hence they could not be saved who, **knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God ** through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.” That’s an important point. Ya gotta know or you can’t be at fault.

 

[Pax]

Kudos Maggie!

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Before you go Lutheran, make sure you locate Sola Scriptura in Scripture first.

Scott

 

[beng]

Shibboleth:

I have the utmost concern for God and the church catholic. Feelings are not irrelevant in any aspect. Catholics believe in salvation through “works.” That being the case they must be sure that those “works” are not done for the sole purpose of achieving salvation.

I hope you understand that Catholic does not believe salvation through works. Cause if you do then alot of canons from Council of Orange and Trent will be thrown at you (along with some Catechism and maybe some encyclicals)

If a person goes into confession not in repentance but only so they can say that they have confessed – they have done so emptily and have received nothing. It was not the gift that God rejected in Cain’s offering but the intention in which it was given.

Do you udnerstand the concept of Penance by the Ctaholic Church? It’s not that there’s no repentance. There should be repentance and people should be contrite.

Penance make it possible for people who can not make perfect contrition to be forgiven, before forgiveness require that the sinner realy understand the damage of his sin and how his sin offend God. And not many of us can do this. That is why through the sacrament of Penance the Church with all the saint plus Christ sufffering help this process.

And puhlezzzz do you think that just because Catholics go to confession then they are not contrite? Compare to Protestant who just “pray to God and be forgiven,” Catholic are more contrite in the penance box.

I do believe that Christ set forth his Church on this Earth I do not believe that the sole ownership of that belongs to the Roman Catholic Church.

And it belongs to 30,000 denominations with contradicting beliefs that has no history until the 16th century?

 

[Shibboleth]

When I was talking on confession I meant my own failings, not others. I have no reason to think that Catholics that go to confession are not contrite.

I want to thank everyone for their help on everything. This thread is going exactly the way that I did not want it to go. Like I said in the beginning I have my problems with the Catholic Church, but I cannot hope to wish that I am right when it comes to God. The Catholic Church is a noble and righteous institution, it is not my place to condemn its teachings I am but a humble follower. Once again thanks for your time.

In a little hilltop village
they gambled for my clothes,
I asked them for salvation
and they gave me a lethal dose,
I offered up my innocence
got repaid with scorn,
Come in she said I’ll give ya’
shelter from the storm.
– Bob Dylan

 

[Maggie]

Thank you Shibboleth for sharing your struggles with us with humility and charity. It took a lot of grace. Please continue to participate in the forums as your feedback is a welcome addition to the discussion.

 

[srkbdk]

Maggie:

Thank you Shibboleth for sharing your struggles with us with humility and charity. It took a lot of grace. Please continue to participate in the forums as your feedback is a welcome addition to the discussion.

I really agree with Maggie here you have been a asset to many of us.

 

[BobCatholic]

Shibboleth:

He wants us to pray for one another for our ears not his.

What does this mean? And please show me where this is in 1 Timothy 2:1?

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Shibboleth:

On a few posts I have stated that I have my problems with the Catholic Church and that is why I am converting to Lutheran and not Catholic.

I have gone the other way, form luteranism to catholsism. How could that happen? Because I prayed and praiyed and prayed for Gods guidance.

It was not an easy way! Believe me, when I found out that I had become chatholic in my heart, I wanted most to hide and to look an other way. Together God and I went trough everything. One day I was ready to convert and say YES to the CHURCH!

You say:" If I were to join the Catholic Church those problems in my heart would be difficult to live with… I would be bound by Cannon Law …"

Ask God for help! Whatever problems you have God never decieve you!

Please come home again! (I can’t understand why anyone can give away The Holy Eucarist, Jesus real presence).

God Bless!

G.G.

 

[Shibboleth]

I think people are taking the words “ears” and “hear” a bit literally.

Ask yourself, do you think God would say, “Well I would help him but only 14 people are praying and I need 17 to listen to the plea” or “I cannot quite understand what is being said, could you get more people to say it so I can hear.”

I can think of one time in the Bible where numbers were an issue, when Abraham was talking to God about the destruction of Sodom. In this instance it was Abraham setting the number and God was going - fine, but it does not matter I already know the number and the hearts of the people, it will be destroyed.

What I mean by this is that God is self sufficient he does not need to hear our prayers to know our needs. One culture’s, and I forget what that culture is, name for God simply means “He with no Anus.” Although odd, I think that this is a good observation. He does not need to consume, he does not need anything outside himself to persist. He does not need to have things outside of him spoken for him to hear.

So if he is aware of our needs why do we pray? Here’s the rub, God is limitless and with him anything is possible, but with man we have our limitations. We cannot do all things at once, so men in their limitations need to align themselves to a purpose. If two people pray for a hungry family, it is likely that God will work through them to bring them canned goods, food baskets, etc. If more people pray about the family he will work through them for the same purpose and more food will be brought to that family.

So if we only pray for ourselves, we only align God’s work through us to ourselves. We need to align our limitations to each other. This is what I mean by when we pray it is for our own ears to hear, for God already knows are needs but we do not until we voice them to God.

Clear as mud?

 

[Sparky]

Shibboleth:

First off I want to apologize for misspelling “believer”

I have the utmost concern for God and the church catholic. Feelings are not irrelevant in any aspect. Catholics believe in salvation through “works.”

No we don’t. We believe we are saved by grace from the cross, realized in faith and enacted in works. Get it right.

Thanks.
–Ann

 

[Shibboleth]

Sparky relax, I only need to be told once and I listen - when dealing with Catholic edicts and beleifs I know that the people on this board are more informed than I. I realized my error.

Try not to be angry at the misinformed it will only lead to them closing their ears not opening them.