Belgian archbishop seeks Church recognition of same-sex unions [CC]

[cena]

I find Bishop Bonny’s suggestions very refreshing and very true to the ideals of marriage - faithfulness, commitment, care. Every human being has a need for deep relationship. I think it is time we became open to the fact that SSM is coming.

It would appear that you’re here to be contrary so there should not be any surprise.

Why do you think God loves everyone equally? I’m not certain that is true.

I don’t think it is. I don’t think He would love an obstinate atheist as much as a very devoted Catholic

 

[PTL]

God loves everyone and wants everyone to be holy. God loves sinners but definitely hates sin. True love always wants the beloved to be converted. Never mix love with indulgence in sin, makes no mistake.

 

[graciew]

I am not surprised I am outnumbered on this topic on this thread.

Obviously many of you predate the mentiality referred to by Pope Francis a while ago. He cautioned against too much moralizing on these sort of issues, and the consequential danger of the Church collapsing like a house of cards.

I think we have to remember that we do not own God. God loves everyone equally.

He warned against."obssessing " with homosexuality.
And I guess this goes for you too.
Live and let live means also give us a break…
Francis referred to confessionals as well in the same interview. We are all invited to use them. INVITED.
If you are on a.different spiritual journey ,have a safe trip. Sincerely. We 'll miss you though.

 

[Tigg]

I am not surprised I am outnumbered on this topic on this thread. .

Nor should you be as this is a Catholic forum and by and large most *understand *and hold to the immutable teachings of Christ.

Obviously many of you predate the mentiality referred to by Pope Francis a while ago. He cautioned against too much moralizing on these sort of issues, and the consequential danger of the Church collapsing like a house of cards.

Since we’ve had 265 popes prior to Francis and they’ve all upheld the very same thing I cannot image what you’re referring to. Perhaps you missed the part where Pope Francis said,* “I am a Son of the Church.”*

I think we have to remember that we do not own God.

I think what we have to remember is that Christ owns His Church, not any pope, nor any bishop, nor any theologian and He is the same today as He has always been; in fact, by His very nature and attributes, He cannot change.

God loves everyone equally

True… He also hates sin and evil philosophies that deter His message of salvation.

 

[Paralove]

Nor should you be as this is a Catholic forum and by and large most *understand *and hold to the immutable teachings of Christ.

Since we’ve had 265 popes prior to Francis and they’ve all upheld the very same thing I cannot image what you’re referring to. Perhaps you missed the part where Pope Francis said,* “I am a Son of the Church.”*

I think what we have to remember is that Christ owns His Church, not any pope, nor any bishop, nor any theologian and He is the same today as He has always been; in fact, by His very nature and attributes, He cannot change.

True… He also hates sin and evil philosophies that deter His message of salvation.

Well, sin is often in the eyes of the beholder, in the attitude he or she brings to the table. When two people love each other and that arises out of a natural state, who are you to judge? I know you would like to assume that this has been decided ex cathedra, but do not be so sure. I fail to see what your point is when you speak about Christ. Jesus is a reflection of God.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Well, sin is often in the eyes of the beholder, in the attitude he or she brings to the table. When two people love each other and that arises out of a natural state, who are you to judge? I know you would like to assume that this has been decided ex cathedra, but do not be so sure. I fail to see what your point is when you speak about Christ. Jesus is a reflection of God.

The issue is not them loving each other hand having a very close relationship, the issue is in them engaging in sex.

 

[Tigg]

Well, sin is often in the eyes of the beholder, in the attitude he or she brings to the table. When two people love each other and that arises out of a natural state, who are you to judge? I know you would like to assume that this has been decided ex cathedra, but do not be so sure. I fail to see what your point is when you speak about Christ. Jesus is a reflection of God.

On the contrary, Christ did not make His teaching too difficult for us to understand, and NO, He is not a reflection of God…HE IS GOD!

 

[georget]

Well, sin is often in the eyes of the beholder, in the attitude he or she brings to the table. When two people love each other and that arises out of a natural state, who are you to judge? I know you would like to assume that this has been decided ex cathedra, but do not be so sure. I fail to see what your point is when you speak about Christ. Jesus is a reflection of God.

Sin is not in the eyes of the beholder, sin is what God has declared it to be through his word.

Jesus is a reflection of God, where did you pick that up?

 

[DrTaffy]

I’m surprised a supposed “doctor”…

Oh, I can justify calling myself ‘doctor’ - far more, I imagine, than you can justify calling yourself a humble servant!

 

[cena]

Well, sin is often in the eyes of the beholder, in the attitude he or she brings to the table. When two people love each other and that arises out of a natural state, who are you to judge? I know you would like to assume that this has been decided ex cathedra, but do not be so sure. I fail to see what your point is when you speak about Christ. Jesus is a reflection of God.

Jesus is God.
Since sin is in the eye of the beholder, then two adult close relatives who can’t reproduce could get married if they loved each other since we are in no position to judge. The only argument you could present is that incest is immoral and that is why we cannot allow that. This is why we can’t tolerate same sex unions

 

[ServusHumilis]

Oh, I can justify calling myself ‘doctor’ - far more, I imagine, than you can justify calling yourself a humble servant!

Again you disregard the entire point of the comment. I hope you pay better attention to your poor patients, if it’s medicine you practice. Typical of so-called doctors in my experience.

 

[Elizium23]

The issue is not them loving each other hand having a very close relationship, the issue is in them engaging in sex.

That’s kind of an odd line to draw. You realize that more than homosexual acts are sinful. Sexual thoughts willingly entertained are grave matter for everyone. An unmarried couple engaging in a “loving, very close relationship” that involved heavy petting, passionate kissing, cybersex, sexting, or other kinds of brinkmanship are playing with mortal sin. So it’s hard to see how two homosexuals can have a “loving, very close relationship” while remaining blameless and chaste. It’s hard enough for heterosexuals to do when they are dating before marriage.

Since a “loving, very close” homosexual relationship cannot lead to marriage, they should be discouraged from the get-go as disordered. As a husband, I would not want my wife to have a “loving, very close” relationship with another man, I would certainly wonder what was going on there, and ask her to consider if she was truly committed to a marital relationship with me while developing that kind of bond outside the marriage. Even if she were committed and blameless, how would I know this other man would be respectful of her and our marriage vows?

That’s not to say that all close relationships should be discouraged. Parameters and boundaries can be set and observed in trust and respect. But when one person is romantically/sexually attracted to another in a situation where marriage is not an option, both of those people, as Christians, should be extremely scrupulous and circumspect to ensure that nothing unchaste transpires between them.

And for most people, that means steering well clear, keeping the person at arm’s length, never being alone together, keeping physical expressions to a minimum. If two people can maintain a “loving, very close relationship” without it ever being tinged with mutual attraction, or spousal jealousy, then they are much stronger than I am.

 

[Rubia]

That’s kind of an odd line to draw. You realize that more than homosexual acts are sinful. Sexual thoughts willingly entertained are grave matter for everyone. An unmarried couple engaging in a “loving, very close relationship” that involved heavy petting, passionate kissing, cybersex, sexting, or other kinds of brinkmanship are playing with mortal sin. So it’s hard to see how two homosexuals can have a “loving, very close relationship” while remaining blameless and chaste. It’s hard enough for heterosexuals to do when they are dating before marriage.

Since a “loving, very close” homosexual relationship cannot lead to marriage, they should be discouraged from the get-go as disordered. As a husband, I would not want my wife to have a “loving, very close” relationship with another man, I would certainly wonder what was going on there, and ask her to consider if she was truly committed to a marital relationship with me while developing that kind of bond outside the marriage. Even if she were committed and blameless, how would I know this other man would be respectful of her and our marriage vows?

That’s not to say that all close relationships should be discouraged. Parameters and boundaries can be set and observed in trust and respect. But when one person is romantically/sexually attracted to another in a situation where marriage is not an option, both of those people, as Christians, should be extremely scrupulous and circumspect to ensure that nothing unchaste transpires between them.

And for most people, that means steering well clear, keeping the person at arm’s length, never being alone together, keeping physical expressions to a minimum. If two people can maintain a “loving, very close relationship” without it ever being tinged with mutual attraction, or spousal jealousy, then they are much stronger than I am.

And much stronger than almost all our saints too!

 

[Rubia]

I don’t think it is. I don’t think He would love an obstinate atheist as much as a very devoted Catholic

You are very wrong if you think you earn God’s love by being devout catholic. God loves all equally. It is we who love God unequally. Some of us love God much better than others. I do not think God loves St. Theresa of Avila more than he loves me. I do think she loved God much better than I do.

 

[ServusHumilis]

You are very wrong if you think you earn God’s love by being devout catholic. God loves all equally. It is we who love God unequally. Some of us love God much better than others. I do not think God loves St. Theresa of Avila more than he loves me. I do think she loved God much better than I do.

Your opinion puts you at odds with Cardinal Francis George (and therefore the Church) who stated God does not love all equally.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

That’s kind of an odd line to draw. You realize that more than homosexual acts are sinful. Sexual thoughts willingly entertained are grave matter for everyone. An unmarried couple engaging in a “loving, very close relationship” that involved heavy petting, passionate kissing, cybersex, sexting, or other kinds of brinkmanship are playing with mortal sin. So it’s hard to see how two homosexuals can have a “loving, very close relationship” while remaining blameless and chaste. It’s hard enough for heterosexuals to do when they are dating before marriage.

It is a rather queer line to draw, but it is theologically accurate. I was identifying what specifically in a gay relationship was a sin specific to them. Heavy petting, cybersex and sexting aren’t brinksmanship, they are flat out immoral.

LGB people are just as capable of having chaste same sex relationships as heterosexuals are.

Since a “loving, very close” homosexual relationship cannot lead to marriage, they should be discouraged from the get-go as disordered. As a husband, I would not want my wife to have a “loving, very close” relationship with another man, I would certainly wonder what was going on there, and ask her to consider if she was truly committed to a marital relationship with me while developing that kind of bond outside the marriage. Even if she were committed and blameless, how would I know this other man would be respectful of her and our marriage vows?

That kind of relationship would be bad because of spousal neglect.

That’s not to say that all close relationships should be discouraged. Parameters and boundaries can be set and observed in trust and respect. But when one person is romantically/sexually attracted to another in a situation where marriage is not an option, both of those people, as Christians, should be extremely scrupulous and circumspect to ensure that nothing unchaste transpires between them.

They should exercise prudential judgement which does not necessarily rule out such a relationship.

And for most people, that means steering well clear, keeping the person at arm’s length, never being alone together, keeping physical expressions to a minimum.

LGB people are not sex crazy animals who need extremely strict policing and the occasional cattle prod to behave.

If two people can maintain a “loving, very close relationship” without it ever being tinged with mutual attraction, or spousal jealousy, then they are much stronger than I am.

So what if they are attracted to each other? People get jealous when their close friends spend less time with them to spend it with other people, it happens.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Here is something written by St. Gregory of Nazianzus one of the most esteemed doctors of the Church both of the East and of the West especially relevant as January Second is the Feast of St. Basil the Great and St. Gregory of Nazianzus

Basil and I were both in Athens. We had come, like streams of a river, from the same source in our native land, had separated from each other in pursuit of learning, and were now united again as if by plan, for God so arranged it.

I was not alone at that time in my regard for my friend, the great Basil. I knew his irreproachable conduct, and the maturity and wisdom of his conversation. I sought to persuade others, to whom he was less well known, to have the same regard for him. Many fell immediately under his spell, for they had already heard of him by reputation and hearsay.

What was the outcome? Almost alone of those who had come to Athens to study, he was exempted from the customary ceremonies of initiation, for he was held in higher honor than his status as a first-year student seemed to warrant.

Such was the prelude to our friendship, the kindling of that flame that was to bind us together. In this way we began to feel affection for each other. When, in the course of time, we acknowledged our friendship and recognized that our ambition was a life of Christian perfection, we became everything to each other: We shared the same lodging, the same table, the same desires, the same goal. Our love for each other grew daily warmer and deeper.

Our single object and ambition was virtue, and a life of hope in the blessings that are to come; we wanted to withdraw from this world before we departed from it. With this end in view we ordered our lives and all our actions. We followed the guidance of God’s law and spurred each other on to virtue. If it is not too boastful to say, we found in each other a standard and rule for discerning right from wrong.

“We Wanted to Be Christians Together,” Gregory of Nazianzen: Oration 43: In Praise of Basil the Great. Excerpted from The Liturgy of the Hours, ©1974, The International Committee on English in the Liturgy, Inc. All rights reserved.

 

[cena]

You are very wrong if you think you earn God’s love by being devout catholic. God loves all equally. It is we who love God unequally. Some of us love God much better than others. I do not think God loves St. Theresa of Avila more than he loves me. I do think she loved God much better than I do.

God loves everyone, it’s just not equally. I never said you could earn God’s love, that’s a gift. You can’t earn gifts.

newadvent.org/summa/1020.htm#article3
Look at the third question, St. Thomas Aquinas explains it better than I do.

jimmyakin.com/2006/08/who_does_god_lo.html
Look at number 4 of what he was talking about, this was what I was referring to

 

[FollowChrist34]

You are very wrong if you think you earn God’s love by being devout catholic. God loves all equally. It is we who love God unequally. Some of us love God much better than others. I do not think God loves St. Theresa of Avila more than he loves me. I do think she loved God much better than I do.

Nailed it.

 

[cena]

You are very wrong if you think you earn God’s love by being devout catholic. God loves all equally. It is we who love God unequally. Some of us love God much better than others. I do not think God loves St. Theresa of Avila more than he loves me. I do think she loved God much better than I do.

My metaphor wasn’t clear, your faith doesn’t earn love from God. I was trying to say a devout Catholic, someone who continuously is trying to do God’s will and please Him, would be loved more than someone who won’t even consider the idea of the existence of God. That doesn’t mean the atheist isn’t loved, because he is.