Belief... or lack thereof

[pocaracas]

I’d be careful what you classify as ordinary things. There are quite a few ordinary things we can’t explain and for which there is no evidence that would convince the materialist, and yet they exist and have deep meaning because they exist.

Oh… well remembered…

This can be said of any historical figure, but again, the existence of any person, any liivng things, even simple blades of grass, are not ordinary things–they are extraordinary when looked at closely.

How are they extraordinary?

He may have communed with an angel. Many have claimed to have done so. It proves nothing, really. And we know that he conquered the Arabian Pennisula by means of the sword–nothing odd about that. What he inspired in others that makes them better people is fine. But that doesn’t require anyone to follow his teachings or his beliefs, does it?

He basically taught Mosaic law, with some extra flourishes.
It doesn’t require anyone to follow those teachings… but when the people in charge enforce the law which imposes death to apostates, then people do follow those teachings.

So, what is good for people to believe and why? Perhaps that might be a question you’d like to explore.

That is a very good question.
What is good for people to believe?.. I guess people can believe anything they want, provided it doesn’t impact on other people…
Like the extreme case of the Muslim judge, under Shariah, who declares that a defendant must be put to death for the crime of ceasing to believe…

As long as you keep it to yourself, you’re golden.

On the other hand, it can become tricky when we discuss parents and children. Should parents teach their children to believe in the same things they believe?
Is that good? It is impacting on someone else, the kids.
But parents only want the best for their children, and they are truly convinced that the best is to believe in that thing…

And… truly… how many people would be believers as adults, if they didn’t have that parental teaching right from the start?

Religion has played a role in humanity. It was, dare I say it, an important role in the development of civilization in the absence of an adequate and unbiased police and judiciary system. Some places in the world still don’t have that, so religion is a must to keep the majority of the population in check… someone once said that god is the ultimate babysitter… and it does apply to some people.

Nowadays, in the western world, many people who left religion look around them and see that there is no ultimate purpose to life, no meaning, no reason to keep doing everything right, no afterlife, no reward, no nothing… and they lose it… many suffer with depression because of that… Belief certainly did help this sort of people… until they stopped believing.
(also, I saw somewhere recently that cutting sugar intake also helps in minimizing depressive states… so… maybe there’s another axis for the correlation to work).

Back to the question, I don’t think a one size fits all should ever be imposed. Just let it be.

 

[MaryHelp777]

100,000 people saw the Miracle of the Sun at Our Lady’s final apparition in Fatima. Many of those saw Our Lady appear in the Sun with the child Jesus, holding a rosary and brown scapular.

1 example of a historical catholic miracle.

 

[pocaracas]

God created the Earth and everything else, including us humans.

How do you account for our bodies having the same parts (except for the obvious male versus female differences)? How an egg and a sperm fertilizing it becomes a living being at conception and develops into a being with two arms, two legs, ten fingers, ten toes, etc.? It is a miracle and it is because of God that this happens.

There is A LOT that goes into a woman becoming pregnant. The right timing, egg, sperm, environment (in the woman’s body), etc. There is way too much to list in a thread. The way that this happens: God’s will!

Not all animal species have such a nice male-female symmetry.
Spiders are one that springs to mind, where the male is usually much smaller than the female.
The praying mantis… will usually eat the male after copulation… yikes! There’s some irony in that name, I’m sure.
Some animals change sex throughout their lives.
There are also asexual species.

It’s not all the same and what we have nowadays seems perfectly snug to fit their habitat.
Even those new awesome nylon eating bacteria. God must have made those recently, as nylon only became available a few decades ago. (this has a bit of sarcasm in there, I hope you don’t mind)

I agree with you that biological organisms are way too complex to adequately describe even one of them in a single post of an online forum… I wouldn’t posit such complexity on any God. There are some details which are of very poor design, according to some biologists… it’s almost as if some Macgyver just kept tinkering with some pre-existing thing.

 

[pocaracas]

Your view of Chance sounds like a god, for in the place of your ignorance you place chance where someone might place God. Kind of a like a “God of the Gaps” kind of argument (just stick a god in the place where we can’t know, except in your case we would insert chance).

Well, no… I place ignorance in there. Chance is just another way of saying ignorance, really…

The fact that “randomness” follows a pattern means that it isn’t randomness anymore. Nothing that follows a pattern is random, even if it is random in and of itself. That defies the law of non-contradiction

You’re right… it was sloppy of me to write it like that… I should have said “apparent randomness follows some pattern”.

How about if I say “the Universe started by some unknown mechanism”?

If it’s unknown, a God could have done it, yes… but we don’t know. Something else could have also done it. Who knows what?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

If it’s unknown, a God could have done it, yes… but we don’t know. Something else could have also done it. Who knows what?

If you acknowledge that is is possible for God to have done it then would you also acknowledge that, had God created the universe, He may also chose to reveal himself to us?

Also, a small request. When you put “a” in front of it, please do not capitalize “god.” “A god” refers to an unknown, and so a general noun. God with a capital ‘G’ refers to a specific object, a proper noun, and is therefore capitalized. I only ask because, in reading, many of us have become accustomed to making the distinction on the fly, and may miss some subtlety in your post as a result of improper capitalization.

 

[pocaracas]

100,000 people saw the Miracle of the Sun at Our Lady’s final apparition in Fatima. Many of those saw Our Lady appear in the Sun with the child Jesus, holding a rosary and brown scapular.

1 example of a historical catholic miracle.

Are you saying that because I have Portugal under my location?
I have read the newspaper that reports what happened in that day, written by a reporter who was there.
He did claim that something strange happened with the sun.
But some later interviewed people from a nearby village who saw nothing wrong with the sun in that day.

I have no idea where you got that last part about Our Lady appearing in the sun… I’ve never heard of it and I’ve been to Fátima a few times…
These guys did a pretty good job of transposing the newspaper images to text: deuslovult.org/2009/05/19/milagre-de-fatima-jornal-o-seculo/
Maybe google translator can help, but tons of errors may creep up because that’s written with old-style Portuguese. (not that google translator does a good job, on regular portuguese, but it’s usually good enough)

Enjoy!

 

[pocaracas]

If you acknowledge that is is possible for God to have done it then would you also acknowledge that, had God created the universe, He may also chose to reveal himself to us?

If he did… he missed me…

Also, a small request. When you put “a” in front of it, please do not capitalize “god.” “A god” refers to an unknown, and so a general noun. God with a capital ‘G’ refers to a specific object, a proper noun, and is therefore capitalized. I only ask because, in reading, many of us have become accustomed to making the distinction on the fly, and may miss some subtlety in your post as a result of improper capitalization.

oh… I try, but I get it wrong sometimes… sorry.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

If he did… he missed me…

Not trying to be mean, but you avoided the actual question. Do you acknowledged that if God does exist, and He did create the universe, could He also chose to reveal himself to His creations?

oh… I try, but I get it wrong sometimes… sorry.

No problem, just trying to make it a bit easier on everyone.

 

[TimothyH]

I arrived at that conclusion independently

With this, my mind is satisfied as it allows for everything that we see and experience to be caused by natural means.

Feel free to pick my atheism apart… I welcome you!

Feel free to pick my atheism apart… I welcome you!

Belief isn’t something we arrive at. Belief doesn’t just happen.

Belief is a choice. I choose to believe.

Animals don’t have choices. I am better than an animal.

 

[pocaracas]

Not trying to be mean, but you avoided the actual question. Do you acknowledged that if God does exist, and He did create the universe, could He also chose to reveal himself to His creations?

I avoided? oh yeah… well… I guess the “yes” was implied.
He could do anything… even reveal himself in different guises in different parts of the world, thus generating the different religions and all the strife that came from that…
When discussing a being of such power and ability, one may consider nearly anything.
A “could” question is almost assured to obtain a “yes” answer.

 

[pocaracas]

Belief isn’t something we arrive at. Belief doesn’t just happen.

Belief is a choice. I choose to believe.

Animals don’t have choices. I am better than an animal.

I must disagree.
I think people can’t choose their beliefs.
They just believe what resonates the most with them… and, usually, that will be what they are taught as children.

Personally, I don’t think I can help not believing, unless some very strong case is made for it… so strong that I’d still not be believing, but something far superior, I’d be knowing.

Some animals are stronger than you. Others have sharper teeth, or sharper talons, better eyes, more long term memory… but we humans certainly have the advantage over all others in brain power… abstract thinking, tool-making and stuff like that.

 

[eazyduzit]

I would like to challenge you to read a book on the power of chance or lack thereof, by R.C. Sproul. The title is “Not a Chance”. I would send it to you, but I’m living away from home for now.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I avoided? oh yeah… well… I guess the “yes” was implied.
He could do anything… even reveal himself in different guises in different parts of the world, thus generating the different religions and all the strife that came from that…
When discussing a being of such power and ability, one may consider nearly anything.
A “could” question is almost assured to obtain a “yes” answer.

Apologies, I like explicit answers, they’re easier to work with.

So, the next part of the question is a two part-er.

#1: Are you genuinely seeking to discover the nature of reality and existence. (The assumed point of making this topic, asking us to engage you.)

#2: Do you believe that the potential for an eternal afterlife warrants consideration in this life?

Given that you’re posting here, I’m going to assume that the answer to each of these questions is “yes.”

With that in mind, if God could reveal himself, it then becomes important to consider whether or not He has. (Again, this assumes that the question of an eternal afterlife warrants consideration, which I’ve assumed you think it does due to making this topic.)

From here, we can begin considering the basic nature of a god who would create this universe through the observable features of our reality. And so, I would put forward the following premises on the nature of God: (Please note, these rely on the premise that an entity cannot create something that he does not first contain. Essentially, a programmer can’t make a program do something the programmer does not understand. I think this is a fairly reasonable assumption to make)

#1: God is rational and ordered. I arrive at this conclusion based on the fact that nature is ordered in such a way that we can make sense of it. It has a logical foundation from which we are able to discern the principles that govern it. (Mathematics, physics, etc.)

#2: God is loving. I arrive at this conclusion because the act of creation for its own sake is an act of love. You do not put real time and effort into something you don’t care about (well… maybe your job ). Given the vast complexities of our universe, it is reasonable to assume that a great deal of “thought” would be required for it’s creation in order for it to be so well ordered (clause 1), which would imply a great deal of care and consideration.

From clauses #1 & #2: God HAS chosen to reveal himself to us. This is not a “could he,” this is a positive assertion that by His very nature (per points one and two) He would be compelled to reveal Himself. Any act of genuine love desires to share itself with the object of its love. When I create a piece of artwork I admire it; when I make a program to do something, I use it. When I love my wife, I share myself with her in everything I do. If God does love His creation, then He would desire to share himself with it. Since we would be part of His creation, this means that He would desire to share himself with us. As such, I again make the positive assertion that He has revealed himself to us.

Sorry, have to run, so this will be my last post for the night. I’ll check in in the morning, or I’d be happy to continue over pm.

 

[eazyduzit]

100,000 people saw the Miracle of the Sun at Our Lady’s final apparition in Fatima. Many of those saw Our Lady appear in the Sun with the child Jesus, holding a rosary and brown scapular.

1 example of a historical catholic miracle.

If you read the actual news account you find that what was actually seen was a large gray disk hovering in the sky.

 

[eazyduzit]

I must disagree.
I think people can’t choose their beliefs.
They just believe what resonates the most with them… and, usually, that will be what they are taught as children.

Personally, I don’t think I can help not believing, unless some very strong case is made for it… so strong that I’d still not be believing, but something far superior, I’d be knowing.

Some animals are stronger than you. Others have sharper teeth, or sharper talons, better eyes, more long term memory… but we humans certainly have the advantage over all others in brain power… abstract thinking, tool-making and stuff like that.

This is a tricky question. On the one hand Rm. 1 says that God has sufficiently revealed Himself in creation that no one has an excuse. Ps. 19 says that “the heavens are revealing His glory” You can get a much better explanation of how if you You Tube “gospel in the stars”.
On the other hand, Jesus said no one can come to Me unless the Father draws him. Jn.6:44.
However, there is no one that God will not reveal himself to if they would only ask.
I would challenge you to ask Jesus to reveal himself to you . Just explain your problem to Him. He can handle it.

 

[Bradski]

If everything came about by Chance, then why does a Weeping Willow tree droop the way it does? How come when we plant the seed of a Weeping Willow, we will know that it will droop the same way as the other one, if everything were to only come about by Chance?

What about human teeth? If everything comes about by Chance, then why do we have sharp teeth in the front, and flat teeth in the back in every single human person? For if it happened by Chance we would have some with flat in front, sharp in back, a mixture of the two, and so on. When a person does, however, have different teeth, we don’t say “oh that’s just by chance” we call it a disorder because it’s not the way the teeth were designed to operate.

And you cannot say that Evolution created this order because in a sense, Evolution itself is flawed by Chance. Actually, Chance contradicts evolution, because Chance denies the possibility of Order.

Chance plays a critical part, but natural selection is not random. And if it’s not random, then you end up with order. Hence weeping willows and incisors and molars etc.

100,000 people saw the Miracle of the Sun at Our Lady’s final apparition in Fatima. Many of those saw Our Lady appear in the Sun with the child Jesus, holding a rosary and brown scapular. 1 example of a historical catholic miracle.

If 100,000 makes it a bona fide miracle at Fatima, then a few million at Zeitoun would be a certainty, surely. But it seems that the more evidence there is for a miracle, the less people claim it to be so. Sounds counter-intuitive, but there’s a simple explanation which should be obvious.

Belief isn’t something we arrive at. Belief doesn’t just happen. Belief is a choice. I choose to believe.

That’s not possible. What you have done is chosen to accept evidence which has led to you believing. There’s a big difference.

 

[Bradski]

I would challenge you to ask Jesus to reveal himself to you . Just explain your problem to Him. He can handle it.

For how long would I have to do this? At what point can we say that it didn’t work.

 

[ericc]

I have a friend that is an atheist. I love her. She has helped me when I needed her and we have had numerous heart to heart discussions on why I am Catholic and why she is atheist. I have often asked her how she makes it without a belief in God? She always says just fine, because she doesn’t think there is one. I am puzzled by this, but of course, she is also puzzled by me.

She has asked me time and time again, "There is no real evidence for what you believe, why do you hold to such ideas that have no credibility? I explain that I do not think the Holy Bible or the Torah was just a compilation of papyrus someone threw together over a few hundred years just to have a “good and moral story”. I also do not believe that the ideas of Judaism or Christianity would have existed for two thousand years if there was absolutely no substance to any of it. She always says the same thing, “But how do you know what you feel is truly a belief in God, not a belief in a created idea?”

The discussion always seems to wind down with my final explanation to her: I tell her I have Faith. It is Faith I have held to when I had nothing else. It is this Faith that foregoes any proof, or evidence, or anything else. The true essence of my Faith is as strong as any feeling I have ever experienced. That includes loving my husband, or my children.

This may not be the answers or discussion you were looking for, but I can only relate my own experiences.

Atheism is also a “religion” that requires an enormous amount of faith to believe there is no God.

 

[Bradski]

Atheism is also a “religion” that requires an enormous amount of faith to believe there is no God.

I think you meant to say ‘…to believe there are no gods’.

 

[Mobius]

While the reasons I believe in God are mostly personal reasons that don’t do well for evangelizing to others, there is a scientific reason that I think does fairly well. So here I go…

Everything we know has had a beginning, and nothing happens without a cause. If the universe had a beginning, then it had to have an outside cause. Now, some scientists say that the universe had always existed, but if this is so, then we wouldn’t be alive because the universe would have suffered heat death by now.

Now, some scientists say that the entropy and heat was able to remix and restart itself by the universe expanding and contracting in a series of big bangs and big crunches, and that we are just living after the most recent big bang. However, studies have shown that the universe is accelerating outwards, which makes no sense and throws out the possibility of big crunches.

So the result is that there must have been a beginning to the universe, and thus and outside cause. “But who created God then” you probably ask. Well, God has the unique property of being outside of time. In fact he probably created time itself. So God doesn’t need a beginning because there literally is no beginning for him. He just is. It’s kind of like that other weird concept that God isn’t good, God IS good. Becoming Godlier and becoming good-er is the same thing. (someone stop me if my theology messed up somewhere along the way)

Now, just in case someone throws out some of the fringe theories, I’ll deal with them too. Mainly the multi-verse and timeless mass:

Basically the multi-verse is a theory that there are multiple universes that interact with each other. Aside from there being no evidence for this, it also doesn’t really answer any questions. If our universe is continuously expanding outwards, then it is reasonable to assume that the other universes would eventually do so in their cycle of contraction and expansion, and we still would’ve suffered heat death.

As for the timeless mass, it’s basically a theory that before the universe had the big bang and it was a super dense ball of mass, time was effectively stopped or even nonexistent, since time is effected by gravity (think interstellar, like the inside of a black hole, but magnified by a trillion). There’s still a problem with this, if time is stopped, then obviously the ball of mass isn’t going to do anything, much less expand, and if the time doesn’t exist, then the ball of mass would be existing right now (being timeless and all), but it doesn’t.

Now, I probably screwed up big on my science somewhere, so feel free to point anything out. But this is pretty much the extant of my scientific knowledge, although most of it probably got screwed up by relying on wikipedia and simplified articles.