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TraditionalCath
Guest
they did? wow, man, iam outta touch:blush:
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b_justb
Guest
When I was hanging out with Messianic Christians the leadership of the congregation did not oppose any of the congregants celebrating Christmas, but they did not encourage it either. For those that did not their reason was because God commanded 7 feasts or celebrations in OT Scripture and Yeshua (they loved to toss that version of The Name around even though most of these guys were pasty white people from places like Jersey City and Oregon) gave the command of the Last Supper. So no Christmas commanded, why do it?
Did I mention I’m not hanging out with them any more? Just making sure.
Did I mention I’m not hanging out with them any more? Just making sure.
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Publisher
Guest
As a group the Society of Friends have not placed a huge importance on Christmas or Easter. For those Friends who wish to celebrate them, great…for those Friends who do not…that is great too.
In most unprogrammed Meetings you’d never find a Christmas tree or Easter basket.
Friends have focused rather in believing that “Christ is born anew each day in our hearts”…and “Christ raises us to newness of life”
First Day is seen as the First Day of the New Creation…so beliefs of “virgin births” and “empty tombs” are left for us to find meaning in them each day and seek transformation in our daily lives that these "events’ point to.
For Friends each day is seen as “Christmas” and each day is seen as an “Easter” experience. The focus on holidays isn’t important, and for many of us, just aren’t “celebrated” with the exhuberance others celebrate these festivals.
In most unprogrammed Meetings you’d never find a Christmas tree or Easter basket.
Friends have focused rather in believing that “Christ is born anew each day in our hearts”…and “Christ raises us to newness of life”
First Day is seen as the First Day of the New Creation…so beliefs of “virgin births” and “empty tombs” are left for us to find meaning in them each day and seek transformation in our daily lives that these "events’ point to.
For Friends each day is seen as “Christmas” and each day is seen as an “Easter” experience. The focus on holidays isn’t important, and for many of us, just aren’t “celebrated” with the exhuberance others celebrate these festivals.
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mercygate
Guest
So Friends do not hold Scripture to be inerrant. Right? I thought the Society of Friends were Christians. I was mistaken?
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MarkA16
Guest
Iglesians don’t celebrate Christmas. (Iglesia ni Cristo)
iglesianicristo.info/incarticles_/christmas.html
iglesianicristo.info/incarticles_/christmas.html
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Publisher
Guest
I’m sure you’ll find people among us who call themselves “Christian”…and there are some among us who while calling themselves “Christian”, you would not.
For most Friends, the Light Within is seen as the Light of Christ…for others the Light Within is seen as the Holy Spirit…for others the Light Within is that Presence which makes Itself known to all humanity in one way or another…It is the divine Seed, the One who was made know fully in Jesus of Nazareth.
Some Friends would hold the scriptures inerrant…my Monthly Meeting and Yearly Meeting does not.
We find unity not in “creeds” or “confessions of faith” but in corporate worship experiences seeking union with the Presence in the midst…the “Light which enlighens all men…”
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mercygate
Guest
Well, any day I learn something new is a good day. Thanks, Publisher.
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KofC660
Guest
To clear up some misconceptions:
Both Sts Matthew and Luke give us pretty up-front clues that Jesus was born sometime around December 25th 2 BC.
Candlemas is 40 days after December 25th, the Presentation of Our Lord at the Temple.
Christian Holy Days fall around pagan holy days because the pagan religions of the world are a kind of “shadow” of Christianity, just as the religion of the Israelites were a premonition of Christianity.
John Baptist was conceived right after Yom Kippur 3 BC, the Incarnation was sometime around Passover 2 BC, John Baptist was born around the 17th of Tammuz 2 BC, Jesus was born at the beginning of the Festival of Lights, 2 BC. All of those Israelite Holy Days were also pagan holy days.
As for why some so-called “Christians” don’t celebrate Christmas, because they refuse to accept the Authority of the Church. It’s really that simple. The further away a "Christian’ is from the Authority of Christ’s Church, the less they will celebrate such things as Christmas.
Both Sts Matthew and Luke give us pretty up-front clues that Jesus was born sometime around December 25th 2 BC.
Candlemas is 40 days after December 25th, the Presentation of Our Lord at the Temple.
Christian Holy Days fall around pagan holy days because the pagan religions of the world are a kind of “shadow” of Christianity, just as the religion of the Israelites were a premonition of Christianity.
John Baptist was conceived right after Yom Kippur 3 BC, the Incarnation was sometime around Passover 2 BC, John Baptist was born around the 17th of Tammuz 2 BC, Jesus was born at the beginning of the Festival of Lights, 2 BC. All of those Israelite Holy Days were also pagan holy days.
As for why some so-called “Christians” don’t celebrate Christmas, because they refuse to accept the Authority of the Church. It’s really that simple. The further away a "Christian’ is from the Authority of Christ’s Church, the less they will celebrate such things as Christmas.
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KarenNC
Guest
I think you have your Wheel of the Year slightly tilted, blacktiger. Candlemas (which is indeed a Christian holiday) is around Imbolc, Feb. 1/2. I believe you are thinking of Yule or Winter Solstice, which is a few days before Christmas (if you mean the Western date for Christmas, I believe Eastern Orthodox on Jan 7 which other groups label Epiphany or the Feast of Lights or Twelfth Night).
That said, I do not celebrate Christmas as a persoanl religious holiday (we do gather with family and friends for whom it is a religious holiday to help them celebrate), but only in terms of the American secular holiday it has become. We do our religious celebration on Winter Solstice, where we exchange gifts among ourselves and talk about the meaning of the holiday. Other than visiting family and friends on Christmas, the only thing we do is set out stockings for Santa. We do decorate the house with greenery, lights and have a tree, primarily decorated with nature/solar symbols and ornaments that have a particular familial importance to us. We don’t have a Nativity and we have a Father Christmas figure on top rather than a star or angel. I am looking for an appropriate solar themed tree topper.
Because of alll the memories and family history associated with the holiday for me, for us it is almost as much of a season of remembrance of our ancestors as anything we do at Samhain.
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KarenNC
Guest
**Both Sts Matthew and Luke give us pretty up-front clues that Jesus was born sometime around December 25th 2 BC.**Christian Holy Days fall around pagan holy days because the pagan religions of the world are a kind of “shadow” of Christianity, just as the religion of the Israelites were a premonition of Christianity.
I would say rather that many religions have holy days that fall around similar times of the year because those are frequently times of communal importance in the cycle of the year–the solstices, harvests, plantings, etc. This is particularly true, I think, for those religions that grew up in similar climates and parts of the world.
As for why some so-called “Christians” don’t celebrate Christmas, because they refuse to accept the Authority of the Church. It’s really that simple. The further away a "Christian’ is from the Authority of Christ’s Church, the less they will celebrate such things as Christmas.
In part, I think it is important to define what one means by “celebrate.” Is it going the Santa/presents route or is just acknowledging it as a holy day sufficient? I think for some groups it is not the “Authority of Christ’s Church” that keeps them from celebrating, it is rather the manner in which the society around them typically celebrates. They may instead choose to mark it as a particularly solemn holy day.
I would say rather that many religions have holy days that fall around similar times of the year because those are frequently times of communal importance in the cycle of the year–the solstices, harvests, plantings, etc. This is particularly true, I think, for those religions that grew up in similar climates and parts of the world.
As for why some so-called “Christians” don’t celebrate Christmas, because they refuse to accept the Authority of the Church. It’s really that simple. The further away a "Christian’ is from the Authority of Christ’s Church, the less they will celebrate such things as Christmas.
In part, I think it is important to define what one means by “celebrate.” Is it going the Santa/presents route or is just acknowledging it as a holy day sufficient? I think for some groups it is not the “Authority of Christ’s Church” that keeps them from celebrating, it is rather the manner in which the society around them typically celebrates. They may instead choose to mark it as a particularly solemn holy day.
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blacktiger057
Guest
Pagan religions are much older than Christian ones. SO yes, Candlemas is pagan and Christmas is CHristian. This a fact. Look it up.
Lots of Light!
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cheddarsox
Guest
Candlemas is in Feb. I don’t know of any pagan holidays that fall on Dec 25, but there are so many pagan trads that there may very well be one. As far as I know, Candlemas is also a christian holiday, hence the “mas” part. Though there are pagan holidays that also fall on or near Feb 2/3, it is the cross quarter between the solstice and the equinox.Christmas is not pagan. Candlemas is pagan. They both fall on the same day. When Christians merged with the pagan people, they made Candlemas(a much older celebration) into Christmas.
Christmas is Christians and Candlemas is pagan because of the intent. Christians intend to celebrate the birth of Jesus while pagans intend to give thanks to the God and Goddess and all nature etc.
Other beliefs do not celebrate Christmas because of one simple reason that we must accept: They don’t share the same beliefs as you. Tough. Get over it and focus on living in peace with everyone and you’ll be much happier and alot less stressed.
Many pagans have a holiday that falls on or near Dec 21, the winter solstice. As you said, the fact that holidays fall on or near one another, or that they may even have similar themes does not make them the same holiday, or mean they are borrowing, stealing, or adapting.
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KofC660
Guest
According to St Luke, Zacheriah, the father of John Baptist, was of the priestly course of Abia, and was serving at the Temple during a Jewish Festival. During the timeframe, the only Festival the course of Abia would have been serving was during Yom Kippur, 3 BC. Also, the shepherds would have been tending to the flocks from December to February, when the ewes would have been lambing (as still happens to this very day, lambs are born in Palestine between December and February).
The Catholic Church gives us the date of December 25th, which is even more important than the facts I presented above. If you accept this date as being the Nativity, then you accept at least SOME of the Authority of the Church, whether you consider yourself Christian or not. However, simply celebrating the “Santa Clause” tradition isn’t any acceptance of the Authority of the Church. For one, St Nicholas’ Day is December 6th, not the 25th. Second, “Santa Claus”, as he is celebrated today, is no more Christian than the “Easter Bunny”.
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Publisher
Guest
Doesn’t the Roman Saturnaila fall on Dec. 25th? I assumed that when Rome adopted Christianity, many of it’s celebrations was given "Christian’ significance. Jesus of Nazareth was not born on December 25th…but the day certainly has taken on a life of it’s own.
When was “Christmas” first celebrated? When is the first recorded date of it being recongnized?
When was “Christmas” first celebrated? When is the first recorded date of it being recongnized?
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KarenNC
Guest
I did, have you? I would be happy to look at citations of your sources for Candlemas being on Dec. 25.
Pagan religions may well be much older than Christian ones, however that does not mean by any stretch of the imagination that everything adopted as “Pagan” by the modern religions that so identify themselves is actually of pre-Christian origin or in the same form as is used by the modern religions.
You may find British historian Ronald Hutton’s work interesting. He has one, “Triumph of the Moon,” which I consider a must-read for anyone who has a connection to or interest in Wicca. It details the historical, societal and philosophical trends that set the stage for the emergence of Wicca in the early 20th century along and then goes into a very detailed history of the beginnings of Wicca. Great stuff. He has also done “Stations of the Sun: A history of the ritual year in Britain” and “The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles: Their Nature and Legacy.”
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cheddarsox
Guest
Candlemas is a Christian holiday. Imbolc is one of the pagan holidays celbrated at the same time, but just one of many, depends on the trad. But Candlemas is in Feb, and is Christian.
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KarenNC
Guest
Saturnalia began around Dec 17 and eventually lasted for 7 days. ancientworlds.net/aw/Article/242252
The feast of Sol Invictus was on Dec 25, but I am not sure when that began to be celebrated. ancienthistory.suite101.com/blog.cfm/this_week_feast_of_sol_invictus lists it as 274 CE.
Here’s a detailed history of the Christmas festival
newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm
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blacktiger057
Guest
O, did you think I was sayin they fell on the same day. Here is the pagan/christian calender of major events.
Yule=Christmas
Samhain=Halloween, or All Saints Day
Candlemas=Candlemas(has been converted into a Christian feast day)
Yule=Christmas
Samhain=Halloween, or All Saints Day
Candlemas=Candlemas(has been converted into a Christian feast day)
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KofC660
Guest
Saturnalia was celebrated December 17th, and sometimes the celebrations lasted until the 23rd, sometimes the 22nd, and sometimes the 20th, and sometimes only on the 17th, depending on who was in charge, and where the celebration was taking place.
One of the first mentions of the date of the Nativity was by Sextus Julius Africanus in 221, who calculated that the Incarnation was on March 25th, so the Nativity would have been on December 25th. It is my opinion that he used these calculations as a way of making December 25th, a day that was traditional in his part of the world, seem more “rational”.
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cheddarsox
Guest
Well, in your first post on this thread, yes, you did say that Christmas and Candlemas fell on the same day.
I don’t like the use of equal signs in your post above, because the holidays, whether they share a calender date or not are not equal to one another.
They are not pagan vs Christian versions of the same thing. They are their own thing.
It does a diservice to people’s faiths and traditions when others oversimplify of try to draw improper comparisons between their ways. It keeps people from gaining genuine understanding and respect for the ways of each other.
Let each rich tradition stand for and speak for itself.
Candlemas is a Christian holiday, with Christian roots.
Some moderday pagans use the term Candlemas for their celebration on Feb 1/2…or Aug 1/2 in the Southern Hemisphere. Humans do tend to borrow practices from one another. But Candlemas is the Christian name for the holiday of Christian significance. Most pagan trads have other names for the holiday they celebrate at that time.
cheddar
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