Believe is Shaken

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NM505StKate said:
The writer of Matthew fixed up bits of Mark and is generally considered a Jewish apologetic. Interesting how none of the other Gospels even mention it because that would be one heck of a way to convince people. “The dead walked and talked to proclaim this carpenter as the living God? Sign me up.” but that didn’t happen. I agree there is bias but the dead fragging walking is a big deal.
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Matthew was written by the apostle Matthew. No hoax here!
Concerning Mark, these things were related by the father [John the Elder]. Concerning Matthew these other things were said, “Therefore, Matthew set in order the logia (“divine oracles”) in a Hebrew dialect, and each interpreted them, as he was able.”[v]
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I will go with Papias on this.
 
NM505StKate said:
No they ate because it looked good to eat and had a sweet smell. They were naïve on everything. Think of them like full grown babies. Sure can walk and talk but have no experience at all. Just dolls that do as they are told. If God wanted this why put the tree there? Why make the fruit look pleasing to the eye and smell good? Maybe God wanted man to “fall” to punish them and send them to hell? Maybe it should be considered a myth and a way of the ancient Jewish people used to explain how they came about or as a metaphor of man leaving hunting/gathering and settled into a less nomadic life.

We don’t know how the universe started before the Big Bang. Maybe it always existed. :)😃 Not going to dive into the first person thing because of banned topic.
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No, they ate it because Satan told them they would be like God if they did. You’ve already been given a quote about that by one poster.

Basic Bible Study would help you a lot, and I don’t mean to be uncharitable. It helps all of us.
 
NM505StKate said:
Well who saw him resurrected? Almost universally Bible scholars agree that the Gospels were written far after the events that they described. They are in no way first hand accounts. So no one for sure know if they events happened. Mark was written first, and I had said before, it ended with the right after the women ran from the tomb. Matthew and Luke embellished upon Mark for their own audience and may have used a source named Q. John is out of left field and is the most different out of all the Gospels.

Now the burden of proof is on those that are claiming a positive. There may have been a man named Yeshua bin Yosef that lived around the time but the events, that are only recorded in the Gospels, that happened have no proof. Again at the end of Matthew the dead walked the city. That is a huge event that would have been reported by every Jewish historian at the time. There is nothing.
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Paul wrote about the resurrection appearances in his letters. His letters were written very shortly after the resurrection. It seems everybody always forgets this and jumps straight to questioning the validity of the Gospels without considering Pauls letters, which compliment the Gospel stories and were written much sooner and by a sure eye witness
 
NM505StKate said:
No they ate because it looked good to eat and had a sweet smell. They were naïve on everything. Think of them like full grown babies. Sure can walk and talk but have no experience at all. Just dolls that do as they are told. If God wanted this why put the tree there? Why make the fruit look pleasing to the eye and smell good? Maybe God wanted man to “fall” to punish them and send them to hell? Maybe it should be considered a myth and a way of the ancient Jewish people used to explain how they came about or as a metaphor of man leaving hunting/gathering and settled into a less nomadic life.

We don’t know how the universe started before the Big Bang. Maybe it always existed. :)😃 Not going to dive into the first person thing because of banned topic.
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They ate it because Satan, in the guise of a serpent said, “The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!” For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.".

biblehub.com/genesis/3-5.htm

They ate because they wanted to be like God. The fact that it tasted good was very secondary.
 
If somebody were to make up a story like the story of Jesus, Orthodox Jews would be the last people to expect it from. These people were all devout and dead serious about heresies. Unlike the pagans surrounding them who were combining Gods and stories in a “the more the merrier” type fashion. The Jews guarded their God and kept Him separate from all others. There would simply be no reason to make up and perpetuate this story. Especially in the face of severe persecution.
 
JB_Brother_4446 said:
Judas’ rope could have been weak and he may have fallen headlong.
Or he may have survived his suicide attempt and then fallen headlong
There are many threads on this subject.

Quirinius could have been a deputy govenor. Or the text may have been corrupted.

So according to you all of Jerusalem was hallucinating?
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  1. No it clearly states Judas died by hanging in Matthew. Heck it is the most common depiction of him dying. Also in Matthew the Pharasies used the money to buy the plot of land. He was no where near it as far as I can tell. In Acts he bought it. A fair difference and contradiction imo.
  2. While true on text may have been corrupted it is common tradition it is Harod. Still a gap of when Jesus was born.
  3. If they were why didn’t the writers Mark, Luke or John tell us of this event? Why only Matthews, which from my little research, was trying to align Jesus to the Old Testament prophets.
 
Lily_Bernans said:
No, they ate it because Satan told them they would be like God if they did. You’ve already been given a quote about that by one poster.

Basic Bible Study would help you a lot, and I don’t mean to be uncharitable. It helps all of us.
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First it was a serpent not Satan. Satan is not a Jewish idea so it is no where to be found in the Old Testament. I will stand corrected that they wanted to be wise. Which would mean they were not wise to begin with. If they were not wise how could they know such an action was bad?

EDIT: Here is a link. skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/3.html
 
St_Redemption said:
If somebody were to make up a story like the story of Jesus, Orthodox Jews would be the last people to expect it from. These people were all devout and dead serious about heresies. Unlike the pagans surrounding them who were combining Gods and stories in a “the more the merrier” type fashion. The Jews guarded their God and kept Him separate from all others. There would simply be no reason to make up and perpetuate this story. Especially in the face of severe persecution.
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Absolutely right! 👍
 
NM505StKate said:
First it was a serpent not Satan. Satan is not a Jewish idea so it is no where to be found in the Old Testament. I will stand corrected that they wanted to be wise. Which would mean they were not wise to begin with. If they were not wise how could they know such an action was bad?

EDIT: Here is a link. skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/3.html
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It was Satan in th guise of a serpent. And Satan is a Jewish concept:

beingjewish.com/basics/satan.html

They had everything they needed. They wanted to be like gods.
 
St_Redemption said:
If somebody were to make up a story like the story of Jesus, Orthodox Jews would be the last people to expect it from. These people were all devout and dead serious about heresies. Unlike the pagans surrounding them who were combining Gods and stories in a “the more the merrier” type fashion. The Jews guarded their God and kept Him separate from all others. There would simply be no reason to make up and perpetuate this story. Especially in the face of severe persecution.
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Is it hard to believe that people heard stories about amazing beings and gods? After being told long distances and/or generations the stories would become standard for the people but changed to fit their beliefs? Like how Samson and Hercules are so similar. How Moses is like a mix of deities. How the flood sounds so much like the Epic of Gilgamesh?
 
Lily_Bernans said:
It was Satan in th guise of a serpent.

They had everything they needed. They wanted to be like gods.
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That is a retcon. The Jewish people have/had no concept of Satan. Satan just mean adversary. More like a title. The serpent is just a talking snake, which in itself is a crazy idea which shows it is a myth.
 
Satan is a Jewish concept: Satan means “Hinderer.”

beingjewish.com/basics/satan.html

“The Hebrew word “Satan” means “Hinderer.” To hinder someone means to hold him back, to try to prevent him from doing something. G-d created the Hinderer to give us work to do in this world. Satan is here to make things difficult for us, so we can overcome our evil temptations, and PASS the test. That is the purpose of Satan. Satan is an angel whose purpose has been determined by G-d.”
 
NM505StKate said:
Is it hard to believe that people heard stories about amazing beings and gods? After being told long distances and/or generations the stories would become standard for the people but changed to fit their beliefs? Like how Samson and Hercules are so similar. How Moses is like a mix of deities. How the flood sounds so much like the Epic of Gilgamesh?
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If there are other stories of a great flood, if anything, its just more evidence that it actually happened. It would be strange if it did happen and there weren’t stories about it…

But youre initial statement doesn’t address my point at all. Sure they had heard all types of stories. Nobody would deny that. Doesn’t matter. What they believed to be true was the scripture. And they believed in it unwaveringly. So, they wouldn’t invent a story that goes against it, just so they could be murdered for it.

Every Jew was dead serious about his religion. As they were with heresies. I don’t understand your point about them hearing other stories. Seems completely irrelevant. No offense.
 
Although I’m not a biblical literalist and I’m not sure the flood actually happened. But that;s a different, tough admittedly, somewhat relevant topic.

But I did want to point out the flawed reasoning.
 
St_Redemption said:
Although I’m not a biblical literalist and I’m not sure the flood actually happened. But that;s a different, tough admittedly, somewhat relevant topic.

But I did want to point out the flawed reasoning.
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You did a great job of pointing it out, in my opinion, because all of her reasoning is flawed, sadly.

However, as you know, she has free will, and if atheism is the road she’s chosen, so be it.
 
Look into other areas of proof. Like Near death experiences. There are thousands. With countless examples of people coming back with unexplainable knowledge. This is one area. God bless you in your search for truth 👍

Thousands are catalogued here. Most commonly, people experience a feeling of overwhelming love and security. Many panic when the are resuscitated and want to go back.

ndestories.org/
 
Lily_Bernans said:
Satan is a Jewish concept: Satan means “Hinderer.”

beingjewish.com/basics/satan.html

“The Hebrew word “Satan” means “Hinderer.” To hinder someone means to hold him back, to try to prevent him from doing something. G-d created the Hinderer to give us work to do in this world. Satan is here to make things difficult for us, so we can overcome our evil temptations, and PASS the test. That is the purpose of Satan. Satan is an angel whose purpose has been determined by G-d.”
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philosophycourse.info/hebwislitsite/hasatan.html
 
St_Redemption said:
If there are other stories of a great flood, if anything, its just more evidence that it actually happened. It would be strange if it did happen and there weren’t stories about it…

But youre initial statement doesn’t address my point at all. Sure they had heard all types of stories. Nobody would deny that. Doesn’t matter. What they believed to be true was the scripture. And they believed in it unwaveringly. So, they wouldn’t invent a story that goes against it, just so they could be murdered for it.

Every Jew was dead serious about his religion. As they were with heresies. I don’t understand your point about them hearing other stories. Seems completely irrelevant. No offense.
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Or some Jewish people grew tired of the rules and wanted to break away? Also while there are other flood stories Gilgamesh is a long time before the Noah story. Like a good thousand years or so. Flood stories are common in areas with a lot of rain during specific periods. Flood are common place. World wife floods that leaves millions dead and only eight people to repopulate the fragging land not so much,.
 
NM505StKate said:
That is a retcon. The Jewish people have/had no concept of Satan. Satan just mean adversary. More like a title. The serpent is just a talking snake, which in itself is a crazy idea which shows it is a myth.
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You dance from topic to topic with remarkable speed. Perhaps you could pick one or two points and stick to them. The scattershot approach appears to reveal a lack of depth in your understanding, as though if you dance quickly enough you won’t have to debate any one point with seriousness and thus reveal your ignorance.
 
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