Believing in the True Jesus - Christians vs Baha'is

[meltzerboy]

There is so much that does not make sense here Steve…

Christ’s sacrifice occurred on earth, at a specific moment in TIME.

Heaven is outside of TIME.

Since when did heaven become entrapped in the framework of TIME, by being opened/closed by an act that occurred within TIME???



If I may, humbly, I will provide a Baha’i perspective to what is meant here by the doors of heaven closing/opening with Jesus’ sacrifice.
Its very simple, and we can elaborate further if we wish, and this ties in with death, resurrection and being reborn.
The moment Jesus came and the sacrifice was made, all of humanity fell into sin. Those who witnessed Jesus and heard His revelation were judged according to their acceptance or rejection of God’s revelation, and heaven or hell were beckoning for them. Those who never heard of Jesus (and even until today this is Catholic teaching) are reliant on God’s mercy. Heaven was opened to those that believed and closed to those that willingly rejected. Those that believed were reborn, resurrected, for it was the Last Days. Those that willingly rejected were amongst the sleeping, the dead and the forgotten.

This reality was no different when Moses came into the picture and revealed the Commandments. A new heaven and a new earth is created with the coming of each Manifestation of God. Those that believe are amongst the resurrected and the doors of heaven are opened. Those that willingly reject are amongst the sleeping and the spiritually dead…

.

Servant, I agree with your way of thinking here; however, I must point out that Jews do not regard Moses, or anyone else for that matter, as a Manifestation of G-d. We believe Moses was the greatest of all the prophets, having foreseen the entire Torah as well as Tanakh, but he was a man, a great man, but not an avatar or manifestation.

 

[Servant19]

ok done

(friends I asked Techno to kindly remove a photo of Baha’u’llah to which he lovingly obliged and deleted the post)

Thankyou dear friend. I honour you for your caring gesture

The photo is Baha’u’llah.

The photo has been put online without the permission of the Baha’i community. Baha’is are discouraged to see the photo online. The only place to view it officially is while on pilgrimage in Haifa, Israel.

Thankyou again.

Do not be surprised by the human Temple of a Manifestation of God. Jesus looked like someone too. They all have a human frame, and manifest particular physical attributes. It is not to the physical frame that we are attracted to…



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[Servant19]

Servant, I agree with your way of thinking here; however, I must point out that Jews do not regard Moses, or anyone else for that matter, as a Manifestation of G-d. We believe Moses was the greatest of all the prophets, having foreseen the entire Torah as well as Tanakh, but he was a man, a great man, but not an avatar or manifestation.

Good to hear dear friend.

I understand the Jewish position that Moses is not considered a Manifestation of G-d

His Mission was not to reveal the “full” nature of Himself, but rather to develop the nature of human beings through obedience to the one G-d and His Commandments.

The nature of these Major Prophets like Moses and Jesus is gradually divulged culminating currently with the Revelation of Baha’u’llah when it was deemed that humanity was ready for such knowledge.

This is a vast vast topic that is explored deeply in the Baha’i Writings, and if you have any questions I would be happy to explore it with you

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[Michael1978]

The nature of these Major Prophets like Moses and Jesus is gradually divulged culminating currently with the Revelation of Baha’u’llah when it was deemed that humanity was ready for such knowledge.
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My dear friend this is simply not true. Jesus was not a prophet in the line of Moses. Jesus is the Word made flesh; Jesus is the way, the truth and the light; Jesus is Christ the Lord; Jesus is the only begotten Son of God; Jesus is the Christ, the Savior of the World; Jesus is the Light of the World; Jesus is the Morning Star; Jesus is the Horn of Salvation; Jesus is the Hope of His people; Jesus is the Refuge from the Storm; Jesus is the Rock of Ages; Jesus is the Lamb that was Slain; Jesus is the High Priest; Jesus is the Consolation of Israel; Jesus is the Last Adam; Jesus is the Head of all Principality and Power; Jesus is the Messiah, the Prince; Jesus is the Prince of Peace; Jesus is the Righteous Judge; Jesus is the King of all Nations; Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega - He is the First and the Last.

15Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.

21Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

Matthew 7:15-23 DRB

 

[Servant19]

My dear friend this is simply not true. Jesus was not a prophet in the line of Moses. Jesus is the Word made flesh; Jesus is the way, the truth and the light; Jesus is Christ the Lord; Jesus is the only begotten Son of God; Jesus is the Christ, the Savior of the World; Jesus is the Light of the World; Jesus is the Morning Star; Jesus is the Horn of Salvation; Jesus is the Hope of His people; Jesus is the Refuge from the Storm; Jesus is the Rock of Ages; Jesus is the Lamb that was Slain; Jesus is the High Priest; Jesus is the Consolation of Israel; Jesus is the Last Adam; Jesus is the Head of all Principality and Power; Jesus is the Messiah, the Prince; Jesus is the Prince of Peace; Jesus is the Righteous Judge; Jesus is the King of all Nations; Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega - He is the First and the Last.

Matthew 7:15-23 DRB

Thankyou for your thoughts dear Michael. That was a wonderful collection of titles relating the station of Jesus to which no Bahai would disagree with.

One thing for you to consider is that Baha’u’llah and Krishna were both given similar titles relating to their stations too.

I wonder if you could ponder on the principle of manifestation and the eternal nature of the Word to conclude something that will unite the peoples of the world under one common Faith and one universal Cause?

Please do share your thoughts after this reflection

Baha’u’llah clearly states that just because a Manifestation of God does not divulge a particular aspect to His station does not mean that they do not possess that station.

I pray for God to guide your reflections and prayers on this matter towards the Truth



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[steido01]

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/...IrfWcz8pOJJagVvlwdxpe9qUogITHdEbtQysBHlT72Vpw

 

[Servant19]

http://andywrasman.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/cropped-contradict01.jpg

They’re not…



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[meltzerboy]

They’re not…



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Servant, I thought the gist of your argument is that they ARE all true, that is, all Manifestations of G-d. Isn’t that what you are suggesting in post #557 and elsewhere?

 

[Servant19]

Servant, I thought the gist of your argument is that they ARE all true, that is, all Manifestations of G-d. Isn’t that what you are suggesting in post #557 and elsewhere?

Sorry for the confusion, but that graphic above contains symbols of religions that are pretty certainly man made.

Secondly, the foundation of this theology is that all religions are true in their ENTIRETY for the period that the Revelation is given until the moment the next Revelation is given.

So today, Truth is found in its fullness in Baha’u’llah’s Revelation, but that will again be superseded by the next Manifestation of God in the future…



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[meltzerboy]

Sorry for the confusion, but that graphic above contains symbols of religions that are pretty certainly man made.

Secondly, the foundation of this theology is that all religions are true in their ENTIRETY for the period that the Revelation is given until the moment the next Revelation is given.

So today, Truth is found in its fullness in Baha’u’llah’s Revelation, but that will again be superseded by the next Manifestation of God in the future…



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I understand. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Michael1978]

Thankyou for your thoughts dear Michael. That was a wonderful collection of titles relating the station of Jesus to which no Bahai would disagree with.

One thing for you to consider is that Baha’u’llah and Krishna were both given similar titles relating to their stations too.

I wonder if you could ponder on the principle of manifestation and the eternal nature of the Word to conclude something that will unite the peoples of the world under one common Faith and one universal Cause?

Please do share your thoughts after this reflection

Baha’u’llah clearly states that just because a Manifestation of God does not divulge a particular aspect to His station does not mean that they do not possess that station.

I pray for God to guide your reflections and prayers on this matter towards the Truth



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Dear Servant,

I certainly believe that there is on true religion under which all peoples can unite and that is the one Holy and Apostolic Catholic Church. But of course you and I would disagree with that. The Church does not teach of other manifestations of God. There is but one Triune God. Jesus told us that he is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. There is no further revelation; there is no new dogma; there are no more prophets. Peace be with you. “He who testifies to these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming quickly.’ Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.”

 

[Servant19]

Dear Servant,

I certainly believe that there is on true religion under which all peoples can unite and that is the one Holy and Apostolic Catholic Church. But of course you and I would disagree with that. The Church does not teach of other manifestations of God. There is but one Triune God. Jesus told us that he is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. There is no further revelation; there is no new dogma; there are no more prophets. Peace be with you. “He who testifies to these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming quickly.’ Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.”

Thankyou again dear Michael.

We could go back and forth forever with statements and comments. I believe the Church no longer has authority with Baha’u’llah’s coming, just as the Pharisees and Saducees no longer had authority with Jesus’ coming.

When I asked you to ponder in your heart about a means to unite the peoples of the world with the concept of “manifestation”, I was not implying under “one true religion”, for how could a Muslim forgo His beloved Muhammad as a deceived Prophet to bow to the Church?

No dear friend, that which is the Will of the Father in these last Days is to create a “global, spiritual democracy” under the banner of “unity in diversity”…

I pray that your evident strong and praiseworthy faith in Jesus can guide you towards working for this noble and Divine Enterprise through the power of the Holy Spirit.

God bless you

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[Michael1978]

Thankyou again dear Michael.

We could go back and forth forever with statements and comments. I believe the Church no longer has authority with Baha’u’llah’s coming, just as the Pharisees and Saducees no longer had authority with Jesus’ coming.

When I asked you to ponder in your heart about a means to unite the peoples of the world with the concept of “manifestation”, I was not implying under “one true religion”, for how could a Muslim forgo His beloved Muhammad as a deceived Prophet to bow to the Church?

No dear friend, that which is the Will of the Father in these last Days is to create a “global, spiritual democracy” under the banner of “unity in diversity”…

I pray that your evident strong and praiseworthy faith in Jesus can guide you towards working for this noble and Divine Enterprise through the power of the Holy Spirit.

God bless you

.

Thank you, Servant. I just know that when Jesus said “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me” he meant it for all eternity, not just for the time being. Peace be with you.

 

[eddie_too]

the bahai say the apostles did not understand what Jesus was teaching them.

that makes Jesus the fool in that either He did not know the apostles were no understanding Him and continued to feed to them what was (to them) misunderstood information; or, He knew they did not understand what He was saying but kept teaching them and telling them to reveal theses Sacred and Divine Mysteries throughout the world.

that is in effect the esteem in which the bahai hold Jesus.

RCs believe Jesus taught the disciples in a manner that would make them effective in transmitting His message to believers. RCs believe the apostles were NOT confused by Jesus. RCs believe what the apostles taught and their successors still teach are what they received from Jesus.\

it is repeated time and again by the bahai that what the apostles and their successors teach is not what Jesus taught.

now it is quite common that a bahai, not unlike a Mormon, changes what they say when they have no answer to the logic of Jesus and the RCC.

even a bahai should be able to understand that what the RC teaches today is what it received from the apostles and their successors.

if you read what the bahai write, you will see that they completely reject the Trinity, given to us by Jesus through apostolic succession. they completely reject that Jesus possessed two natures, a Divine nature and a human nature although He was only One Person, the Second Person in the most Holy Trinity as taught by the apostles and their successors. they completely reject that public revelation ended with the Ascension of Jesus as taught by the apostles and their successors. they completely reject the Real Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist as taught to us by the apostles and their successors.

I realize in their blind faith in Bahaullah, that logic and reason mean little.

but it is a fact that RCs today believe the same things that the apostles taught in the first century and their successors taught in every generation since.

so. the Bahia either believe that Jesus was incapable of giving the Truth to the apostles and kept futilely trying knowing they would get it wrong; or, that somewhere along the line of apostolic succession the teachings of Jesus changed for the worse.

they have NO evidence for either position. just like the Mormons when confronted with disbelief, the bahai say, read what Bahaullah wrote and the spirit will guide you. that is what the Mormons say when unable to explain satisfactorily why they should be believed. they say just keep reading the book of Mormon and the spirit will lead you to the truth.

that is all I am saying. the bahai exhibit extreme faith although it is blind faith. it is blind because it is irrational. it becomes particularly irrational when it attacks Jesus and the RCC.

more recently, and those who have been reading these threads will recognize this tactic, the bahai have begun claiming that God’s revelations change for each generation. the RCC and others call this relativism. the bahai indicate that what was true, in matters of the Divine and Eternal mysteries, for people living four thousand years ago or two thousand years ago is no longer true for us living today.

the RCC teaches that God is unchangeable. in the Judeo-Christian realm, the glimpse in to the Divine Mysteries that God gave to Noah, then to Abraham, later to Moses and down through time to the rest of the Hebrew prophets is a growing understanding of those Mysteries. the Mysteries do not change but man’s understanding of them grows. RCs do not deny that as the depths of the Mysteries are plumbed by devout and holy men and women, its understanding of those Mysteries grow.

the difference between the bahai and the RC in this regard is that the RC realizes that with the coming of Jesus Christ there is nothing more to be revealed. the RCC teaches that understanding the fullness of revelation brought by Jesus can grow within the Church as well as within an individual. devout catholics recognize this phenomenon in their own lives. I know of no RCs who would claim that they do not have a better understanding of their relationship with Christ now then they had twenty years ago.

the bahai, when they address apostolic succession and the truths taught us by Jesus, try to say that the doctrines were wrong. not misunderstood or only shallowly understood. this could only be called a growth in revelation by someone blind to all that surrounds the Judeo-Christian realm, meaning the history and the writings and preachings and teachings and traditions, etc., etc.

saying God is not Trinitarian is NOT a misunderstanding. it is a complete and absolute change from what we received from Jesus through apostolic succession. it is a contradiction. teaching and belief in the Trinity cannot be understood to have ever meant there is only One Person who shares the Divine Nature.

for these reasons, I find the bahai doctrine that what were formerly truths are now not true to be unacceptable. the bahai do not preach growth in understanding. they preach changing the essential Divine Mysteries given us by Jesus.

 

[Techno2000]

These promises were revealed in one of many private revelations that Jesus gave St. Margaret Mary. Our Lord promised the following:

1. I will give them all the graces necessary for their state in life.
2. I will establish peace in their families.
3. I will comfort them in their trials.
4. I will be their secure refuge during life, and, above all, in death.
5. I will shed abundant blessings on all their undertakings
6. Sinners will find in My Heart an infinite ocean of mercy.
7. Lukewarm souls will become fervent.
8. Fervent souls will rapidly grow in holiness and perfection.
9. I will bless every place where an image of My Heart shall be exposed and honored.
10. I will give to priests the gift of touching the most hardened hearts.
11. The names of those who promote this devotion will be written in My Heart, never to be blotted out.
12. I promise thee, in the excessive mercy of My Heart, that My all-powerful love will grant to all those who receive Holy Communion on the First Friday of nine consecutive months, the grace of final penitence; they shall not die in My disgrace nor without receiving their Sacraments; My Divine Heart shall be their safe refuge in this last moment.

 

[Kliska]

http://andywrasman.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/cropped-contradict01.jpg

This. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Techno2000]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
This picture of Our Lady was drawn by a mystic in Italy. Her hand was guided by Our Lady.

There is a special blessing given each day to the person who carries it and another blessing given each time one looks at it with love.
brizek.com/prayer/pieta.htm

 

[tonyfish58]

This Comment is the ultimate downfall of mankind and it is now a challenge to you. Go ahead and write even one page of “Revelation” and post it as Divinely Inspired and Lets see where that will lead.

Are you telling me Christianity is Irrelevant? The Jews have told you for 2000 years that the Words of Christ contradict the Old Testament.

The Power of Gods Word to Transform is evident to all those who accept the call. This Independent Revelation of Baha’u’llah has proven its Capacity to create the new race of mankind required to bring about the promised “Day of God”, Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

This Tablet should be read, it answers a lot of questions - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TU/tu-4.html

This is an extract

"…The answer to this question is also embodied in these blessed, these weighty and exalted words: “Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and centre your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements”. For this day is the Lord of all days, and whatsoever hath been revealed therein by the Source of divine Revelation is the truth and the essence of all principles. This day may be likened to a sea and all other days to gulfs and channels that have branched therefrom. That which is uttered and revealed in this day is the foundation, and is accounted as the Mother Book and the Source of all utterance. Although every day is associated with God, magnified be His glory, yet these days have been singled out and adorned with the ornament of intimate association with Him, for they have been extolled in the books of the Chosen Ones of God, as well as of some of His Prophets, as the “Day of God”.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[meltzerboy]

This Comment is the ultimate downfall of mankind and it is now a challenge to you. Go ahead and write even one page of “Revelation” and post it as Divinely Inspired and Lets see where that will lead.

Are you telling me Christianity is Irrelevant? The Jews have told you for 2000 years that the Words of Christ contradict the Old Testament.

The Power of Gods Word to Transform is evident to all those who accept the call. This Independent Revelation of Baha’u’llah has proven its Capacity to create the new race of mankind required to bring about the promised “Day of God”, Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

This Tablet should be read, it answers a lot of questions - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TU/tu-4.html

This is an extract

"…The answer to this question is also embodied in these blessed, these weighty and exalted words: “Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and centre your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements”. For this day is the Lord of all days, and whatsoever hath been revealed therein by the Source of divine Revelation is the truth and the essence of all principles. This day may be likened to a sea and all other days to gulfs and channels that have branched therefrom. That which is uttered and revealed in this day is the foundation, and is accounted as the Mother Book and the Source of all utterance. Although every day is associated with God, magnified be His glory, yet these days have been singled out and adorned with the ornament of intimate association with Him, for they have been extolled in the books of the Chosen Ones of God, as well as of some of His Prophets, as the “Day of God”.

God Bless and Regards Tony

Tony, does the Baha’i faith have any views on Friends who believe in continuing revelation by means of the Inner Light within us, and, for some, not necessarily based on Jesus Christ?

 

[tonyfish58]

Tony, does the Baha’i faith have any views on Friends who believe in continuing revelation by means of the Inner Light within us, and, for some, not necessarily based on Jesus Christ?

meltzerboy - That is a very good question!

I have not studied this aspect of the Faith very much, but have come across what I think is the concept in many of the writings.

It is stated that the Only Direct revelation form God is through the Manifestations. God chooses these Human Temples when and where He so chooses. No one else is ever given direct Revelation from God.

In the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah we have been Gifted Abdul’Baha (The Servant of Baha), who was directly inspired by His Father Baha’u’llah to interpret His word and as such His Writings are also seen as scripture. This was passed to Shoghi Effendi whos was able to offer the intended meaning of both Baha’u’llah’s and Abdul’Baha’s Writings.

There are others that are so in-tuned with this Manifestation in each age, that they have reached the state of Selflessness required to mirror the Word of the Messenger to Mankind in a more Pure Form than the rest of Humanity.

In the Past we would see them as the Lesser Prophets of the Old Testament and the Disciples of Christ. In the Time of the Bab and Baha’u’llah there were “Letters of the Living” and a few recorded believers that reached this state of Detachment.

Thus the inner Light within us, can only reflected the message of the Most Recent Manifestation by us cleaning the mirror of our heart from all worldly attachments. We will never have Direct revelation From God. We will always be Submissive Servants to our God through the Manifestation of the age in which we live.

There are in my opinion many Souls that have not yet found the path to their Lord, that have very Pure Hearts and are thus reflecting to mankind the principles and requirements of this age, it is when they connect to the source that they become great teachers of mankind. Of course this is in Reality the Messenger working through a very polished mirror, it is not of our own doing.

This will be very left field, but as you asked a very deep question, I thought you would like this as an interesting reflection - It may be of Interest that all Revelations from time as we know it up to Bab all received Gods revelation through “The Glory of God”, that is Baha’u’llah, who’s Station is that of the “Father”. Baha’u’llah tells us that this Revelation is the First time the Most Great Spirit of God spoke directly to man.

Thus the Voice to Moses through the Burning Bush was that of the Father, Christ rose and Sat at the Right Hand of the Father. This brings up a never ending subject on the “Two Fold Station” of the Manifestations. Baha’u’llah has told us Even They do not have access to the knowledge of the essence of God.

I hope that answers your question and I hope you find interest in the added comments!

God Bless your journey with Faith and Love - Regards Tony