Believing in the True Jesus - Christians vs Baha'is

[Servant19]

Welcome back, Servant. Hope you have enjoyed the weekend.

Thankyou beloved brother.

It’s been a busy return from the weekend. It seems I have a lot to catch up on here. I beg for all your patience.

I’m not absent by choice . I will continue this lovely dialogue tomorrow and dedicate some time to it

God bless

.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Servant19;12340248]This is where my understanding seems to differ to yours dear Gabriel .

The relationship goes thus…

If a sun can create sun rays that exist with it, throughout its existence from beginning to end, then God too, can have its “First Emanation” existing with Him from beginning to end, thereby having two eternal entities which are not one and the same in essence. The rays cannot do anything without the sun. If the sun moves up, the rays move up. If the sun moves down, the rays move down. (for example)

Hence, as Jesus proclaims:

"Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does." (John 5:19)

Servant 19 here, we enter a new discussion between the relationship of persons within the blessed Trinity, not the substance which you appear to be contradicting the two theological undertakings.

The relationship of the Father and the Son deals with divine procession not God’s Essence of Being God.

We cannot graduate into the mystery of the blessed Trinity of the divine economy of procession, unless you are clear that we Christians have the substance of the Father consubstantial with the Son of the same Essence in One God One Being Eternally Existing.

I am not saying that you must believe what we profess as Christians, just that you have a clear understanding that we believe in only ONE GOD.

When we deal with the relationship of persons in the Trinity, we are discussing God’s presence revealed in space and time not necessarily God’s Essence which is outside of time and space.

The Sun does not create a Sun Ray. The Sun ray is of the same substance of the Sun.

If the Sun could speak like almighty God, then the Sun sends out it’s Sun Ray to give of it’s light to darkness.

Just as the Father sends or begets His only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ; who gives us His light in our darkness in the newness of light and life, from the Father who sends Jesus who eternally begets the Son.

Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does

Here we have the relationship of the Father being revealed by the Light of the Son. Jesus reveals His eternal procession from the Father and His procession of the Father in True and real substantial Presence of God in time and space in essence Jesus flesh.

When Jesus states; “the Son can do nothing by himself” Jesus is confirming he does nothing by himself, because the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. Jesus revelations of the Father never contradict in all of scripture.

Although Servant 19 your interpretation of; “the Son can do nothing by himself” contradicts Jesus teachings recorded in the bible, and divides the God head of the blessed Trinity into two different deities co-existing. The Son is a person living fully human/fully divine, not an attribute of God.

“he can do only what he sees his Father doing”; Here we have the communion of Heaven and Earth, the Father in heaven and the Son on earth proceeding Love eternal to Love in presence, all the while the presence of God in the Son does likewise what the Father in heaven is doing, when the Father and the Son is One.

The Father knows the Son and the Son knows his Father who reveals the Father and the Father reveals the Son. The Father and the Son are not divided here as a carnal mind would falsely conclude. We are speaking here in relationship of procession of the Father and the Son which is never divided or separated, but is one in procession and revelation.

What follows this discourse reveals the “Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will”. When the eternal Father in heaven gives them life, He sends life through His only begotten Son who does in the presence ONLY what his Father in heaven does, when the Son also gives life to whom he will.

“whatever the Father does the Son also does”, The Father breathes and speaks or sends from the eternal, while the Son breathes and speaks or sends that same life from the Father who gives all the Father has to the Son in God’s presence, who gives life to whom he will. The procession of God’s Love is not divided.

What your interpretation lacks and what is not mentioned here is the third person of the Trinity in the divine procession of persons. That which is hidden in all that is said here, is the Holy Spirit proceeding from both the Father and the Son as "from one principle and through one spiration of Love: CCC246. The Holy Spirit Himself is God, the Lord the giver of Life who makes the procession a reality known in all of creation.

If you remove the third person of the Trinity, from “the son can do nothing by himself”, all that is spoken of stems from carnal relationship understanding grounding the father and son relationship to only space and time that can never reach the eternal procession, from which all visible things come from the invisible.

Relationship of the Father and Son deals with the procession of Love from Love to Love. When Love is God. There is only one Love Existing in all eternity never two, when Love is Essence undefined. The will reflects the divine procession distinctly revealed in the Father and the Son, which is a divine communion of Love in God the Holy Spirit the Lord the giver of Life who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Peace be with you

 

[Servant19]

You are still quoting out of context Servant. Lets put it back into its context from top to bottom. It is only fair isn’t it?
…
All that you have quoted followed after the above passage, when the statement He made to the …kill Him. “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” Jesus has made Himself equal to God with that statement.

Hi Guy

I understand what the interpretation is that you are asserting. However, if we go back to the St.Basil quote again, we will see that the Prototype (Jesus) is an express image (i.e a perfect image) of the Archetype (The Father). What He does, and the image He manifests is NO DIFFERENCE to the Father. When one looks at the Mirror of the Prototype, a human being cannot fathom a difference between the real Sun and the Sun expressly imaged on the Mirror of the Prototype.

This explains the whole context of John 5 perfectly.
There are no contradictions and it also points to Jesus not being the actual Sun. His Divine nature are the Rays emanating from the Archetype and His human aspect is the physical Mirror reflecting the entire Image of the Sun, whole and pure, upon mankind, to the entire created universe.

Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. - John 5:17-29

“…the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.” This only reaffirms further that the Father & the Son is of one Divine Essence.

Can you please clarify how you come to this conclusion?
Can you also please clarify what you mean by the term “Divine Essence”?

We have established that the Sun Ray cannot do anything without the Sun dictating it first. But they are in no way the same. They share some essential attributes, but the sun is not the ray. So with this knowledge, it is proven that there exists something which is aligned with what Jesus said yet not aligned with the “Jesus is God” conclusion.

The moment Jesus was incarnated into the flesh, he was to suffer more than any human being in order to atone for the sins of all mankind. He had given up His free will to exercise His divine attributes the moment He is in the flesh. So yes by being human, He must conform to the will of the Father and suffer like any human being, else His Death and Resurrection is in vain.

Yes we are all slaves of the realities of creation. Suffering, death, etc.
And also, the Bahai teachings fully acknowledged the sacrifices made by Jesus. One cannot conclude here, however, that Jesus is God…

Here’s food for thought:

Can a mere human subjected to sin, sacrifice himself for the numerous sins of one man, much less the countless sins of all mankind?

No.

Jesus was not a mere human. Let’s forget for a moment that He has a divine side, and I most certainly do not. Baha’u’llah states that even the Human Temple of Jesus, the atoms and molecules that He shared with me and you were not the same as ours. He likens it to a comparison between dust and diamonds.

So, Jesus was not a mere human being. But this is not a conclusion that He is God either…

Can a mere man subjected to time, sacrifice himself for the sins of the whole world since the beginning of time til the end of time?

Again, Jesus was a human expression at a moment in created history. That is not the real Jesus. The Sun Ray is not the mirror. The Mirror breaks, decomposes, is in need of sustenance, but the Ray lives on eternally, and eternally forgives sins.

Only God (who is eternal) born into the flesh of Man, Who suffered as a Man, died & raised to atone for the sins of the world can satisfy God’s Justice, else we are implying that God is unrighteous and have decided to abolish His own Laws.

Why are we implying that God is unrighteous?

“So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving Spirit.” - 1 Cor 15:45

God is Spirit.

This is another evidence of a spiritual resurrection, or at least, this is the most important part.

We probably have to be content that you are understanding the passage the way it is because your mind is searching for areas where Jesus suggesting He is not God, instead of searching the bible for the verses that says He is.

I truly believe that I am looking at the whole thing Guy. I do not discount the parts that refer to His equality with God, simply because I acknowledge epistemology and ontology. It seems that the teaching of “Jesus is God” is not looking at all the passages that imply that Jesus is not God.

It’s not conclusive dear friend, not at all

I can only offer you this:

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p2.htm

The Holy Trinity is a Mystery that no man can even hope to try to dismantle, understand and explain in its fullness.

GuyNextDoor

Thankyou dear brother, I’ll have another read. I’ve studied these many a time, but as with all theological Writings, one can learn something new each study

I hope and pray you will be given the courage by God to read other sources of Divine Revelation…

God bless!

.

 

[Servant19]

Jesus said the Father revealed who Jesus is to Peter. Paul had a vision of the Lord, thus I beg to differ because while it may not be relevant to you, Servant but it is very relevant to us Christians.

Yes, so if the Father revealed who Jesus was, then a physical resurrection was not a requirement.

In Paul’s case, he had a vision of the “Life-Giving Spirit” of Jesus, not an actual physical body of Jesus descending down from the physical clouds.

That’s not the position of Christianity but Baha’i. How did you arrive at that assumption, Servant?

Because Peter recognized Jesus fully as the Son of the Living God before any physical resurrection. Is that not the position of Christianity?

Let us follow the same standard we have been using all along with Jesus’ words. There is really no other way around that passage unless Thomas did not respond at all but he did. I will just forgo the 2nd and 3rd possibilities for now. Lets fast forward.

Ok
(but there are clearly arguments to both sides of the story)

Why do you feel that a physical body cannot inherit the Kingdom? How did you come to that conclusion, Servant?

GuyNextDoor

According to Paul, physical flesh does not inherit the Kingdom:

“I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God” - 1Cor 15:50

.

 

[GuyNextDoor]

GuyNextDoor;12322131:

You are still quoting out of context Servant. Lets put it back into its context from top to bottom. It is only fair isn’t it?
…
All that you have quoted followed after the above passage, when the statement He made to the …kill Him. “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” Jesus has made Himself equal to God with that statement.

I understand what the interpretation is that you are asserting. However, if we go back to the St.Basil quote again, we will see that the Prototype (Jesus) is an express image (i.e a perfect image) of the Archetype (The Father). What He does, and the image He manifests is NO DIFFERENCE to the Father. When one looks at the Mirror of the Prototype, a human being cannot fathom a difference between the real Sun and the Sun expressly imaged on the Mirror of the Prototype.

St. Basil taught that the Father is the point of origin (άρχή), cause (αἰτία), life-giving source (πηγή) and root (ρίζα) of the Son and Spirit. It has been the foundation of St. Basil’s writings of the Trinitarian mystery. The Father as the sole principle of the Son’s timeless generation and the Holy Spirit’s procession, is the exclusive source of the Divine Essence, which the Son and Holy Spirit equally share and possess.

Even St Basil’s conviction regarding the monarchy of the Father was based on the interpretation of the words of Jesus that ‘the Father is greater than I’ (John 14:28), to which I have already pointed out what the different variations of the word “greater” in Greek means against what’s written in the Greek manuscripts. He had not taught anything else that we have not already known all along. The Greek manuscripts are the oldest and most accurate writings of the Apostles, Servant. If the teachings in the Greek manuscripts are not to be believed, then nothing can be accepted at all.

Anyways, I do not think it is right to use a small extracted piece from St. Basil and use it to “reason” a particular belief that he did not teach which are not in accord with the Church, without even reading every piece of his work. St. Basil was canonized by the Holy Catholic Church, if the Saint’s writings were in anyway claiming that Jesus is not God, he would be deemed a heretic during those times instead of being a Saint. The Holy Catholic Church has never taught that Jesus is not God, and neither did any of the Saints. Much of what St. Basil wrote was aimed at explaining the truths of our Church and correcting those who taught untruths. A good example was his fight against Arianism, an idea of Arius, who taught that Jesus was only a man and not God. This as St Basil taught, is wrong, Jesus is God.

I am not the first one to correct you of the misunderstanding you have of his work, but it seems no one can convince you otherwise, so I will leave it as it is and how you please. However I urge you, friend, to leave St. Basil alone because you are making the poor Saint look like a heretic…lol. At least, read all of his works before extracting something to fit the Baha’i view. Its not a truthful study of God when the teachings were being twisted and then claiming or suggesting that this was what the Saint taught. Its in fact dishonest, sorry to say that. We cannot keep going back to this topic of St. Basil and the Holy Trinity to which Gabriel and I have already stressed upon.

GuyNextDoor;12322131:

“So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving Spirit.” - 1 Cor 15:45

This is another evidence of a spiritual resurrection, or at least, this is the most important part…

……Yes, so if the Father revealed who Jesus was, then a physical resurrection was not a requirement. .

… Please tell me of your understanding of the whole passage which included the verse you claimed as evidence that Jesus did not resurrect physically:

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being, the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. - 1 Cor 15:44-47

What do you think is a natural body and a spiritual body here, Servant? Paul did say body, and not anything else.

In Paul’s case, he had a vision of the “Life-Giving Spirit” of Jesus, not an actual physical body of Jesus descending down from the physical clouds.

…According to Paul, physical flesh does not inherit the Kingdom:

“I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God” - 1Cor 15:50

In case you didn’t know, Paul was a Pharisee. The Pharisees believed in the physical resurrection of the body literally, while the Sadducees did not. And he cried out to the Pharisees that he was being put on trial by them for holding the same beliefs that they held:

Paul began crying out in the Council, “Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!” – Acts 23:6

So yes he spoke of nothing else other than the resurrection of the body. But we will get back to this verse once I have a better idea how you understood the passage I quoted for you in 1 Cor 15:44-47.

Peace be with you, friend.

 

[Servant19]

Hello Guy, if you don’t mind may I focus on this for now please?

St. Basil taught that the Father is the point of origin (άρχή), cause (αἰτία), life-giving source (πηγή) and root (ρίζα) of the Son and Spirit. It has been the foundation of St. Basil’s writings of the Trinitarian mystery. The Father as the sole principle of the Son’s timeless generation and the Holy Spirit’s procession, is the exclusive source of the Divine Essence, which the Son and Holy Spirit equally share and possess.

How can Jesus be God, when another Person (the Father) is:

1. The point of origin
2. The cause
3. The life giving source, and
4. The root of the Son?

Does God originate “from” something else?
Is God caused?
Does God receive sustenance from another source?
Does God spring forth from a “root” or a foundation?

.

 

[Techno2000]

Hello Guy, if you don’t mind may I focus on this for now please?

How can Jesus be God, when another Person (the Father) is:

1. The point of origin
2. The cause
3. The life giving source, and
4. The root of the Son?

Does God originate “from” something else?
Is God caused?
Does God receive sustenance from another source?
Does God spring forth from a “root” or a foundation?

.

Remember the story of St. Augustine and the little boy .

 

[GuyNextDoor]

How can Jesus be God, when another Person (the Father) is:

1. The point of origin
2. The cause
3. The life giving source, and
4. The root of the Son?

Does God originate “from” something else?
Is God caused?
Does God receive sustenance from another source?
Does God spring forth from a “root” or a foundation?

We have addressed these before a few times, Servant. We have quoted verses, explained the Trinity and all. People have taken the time and effort to explain about it but you keep asking like you don’t know half of what we said. I am not entirely sure if you are doing it on purpose or you are hearing yourself all these while.

If I want to feign ignorance and backhand these questions at you, I would question why would you persistently quote and suggest St. Basil when you did not have the faintest clue what he stood for yet you were suggesting that he taught that Jesus is not God. St. Basil had fought passionately against Arianism and he died as a martyr holding steadfast that Jesus is God. Lol…

Alright for the last time, I am going to quote Post #93 from Gabriel. I gotta give the guy credit for a well-written post on this topic. I have benefited from it and hope you do as well. It cannot get any simpler and yet detailed for you to contemplate, Servant. And then, I yield to you on this topic too.

Many of the Early Church Fathers describe Jesus teaching the “Father is greater than the Son” by the revealed procession in the divine economy of the Trinity.

The Father proceeds from no one. The Father sends and eternally begets the Son.

The Father gives everything the Father has to the Son except the begetting, because the Son does not beget another.

The Son does everything the Father is doing, thus the Son sends the Holy Spirit or the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.

The Father Loves the Son and the Son Loves the Father

The Father Wills, it pleases the Son to do the Will of His Father.

The Father is greater than the Son is the sending and begetting of the Son not made.

From this divine economy of the Trinity reveals the Father is greater than the Son in procession.

It is important to grasp here, that this divine economic procession is an eternal procession outside of space and time.

The eternal begetting and sending from the Father, if I can describe it in human terms to reflect this eternal procession, is the same as God who breathes and speaks His life in Trinity.

The Eternal procession or Eternal breathing (metaphor) of God sends (breathes) life (Holy Spirit the Lord the give of Life) and begets His only begotten Son, When God speaks His Word God the Father who does not proceed from no one, begets His only begotten Son. This God breathes and God Speaks reveals God lives. Here we still remain in the realm of eternity in God’s Essence eternally Existing breathing sending life, and speaking begets a Son to fulfill the Will of the Father.

This eternal procession of God who breathes and speaks His Word or eternally begets the Son. Is revealed in space and time in the presence of the Holy Trinity of persons, when the Voice = Father is heard, the Word = the only Begotten Son of the Father is sent out and the Holy Spirit perfects and makes divine revelation known or He is the Lord and giver of Life. When the presence of God is made known in the Trinity of persons, the Essence of God is veiled in each person when each person is God in revelation, because the Essence of God does not come down to us.

In short the Father is greater than the Son because God breathes and speaks and lives.

When the Father is God, who speaks His Word begets the Son who in the beginning was with God and the Word is God and all life and creation came through Him and the Word became flesh and made His dwelling among the human race = Emmanuel.

When God the Father breathes life who is life, sends the Spirit who is the Lord the giver of Life.

God and the Holy Spirit is God in presence in space and time who gives life in Him, with Him, through Him and from Him to what came to be from the Word who is God revealed in the fullness of time Jesus the Logos, Word of God incarnate.

Trinity is One God and no other eternally Pure Essence in being Existing. This Eternal Essence of God is undivided and never separated in the persons of the Trinity.

Sorry Guy, I got lost in thought, did not mean to be long winded here;

Peace be with you

 

[GuyNextDoor]

Remember the story of St. Augustine and the little boy .

Oh I know that one. There’s two sides to this story.

The Mystery of the Trinity

There is a story that St. Augustine was walking on the beach contemplating the mystery of the Trinity. Then he saw a boy in front of him who had dug a hole in the sand and was going out to the sea again and again and bringing some water to pour into the hole. St. Augustine asked him, “What are you doing?” “I’m going to pour the entire ocean into this hole.” “That is impossible, the whole ocean will not fit in the hole you have made” said St. Augustine. The boy replied, “And you cannot fit the Trinity in your tiny little brain.” The story concludes by saying that the boy vanished because St. Augustine had been talking to an angel.

The other side of the story is like no matter how you fill the hole, the water keep flowing back to the sea through the sand. And then you keep trying to fill it, but it gets nowhere. Same way with the questions. When you answered the most recent ones, the older questions keep coming back. Unfortunately its how I feel right now…

 

[Michael1978]

The Trinity is a mystery of our Faith. There are probably countless volumes written by scholars and theologians throughout church history to present on the topic. This matter will not be resolved on a message board. What I wonder, however, is how someone of a different faith tradition can come to a Catholic forum and tell Catholics that their understanding of their own Catholic doctrine is incorrect. We can agree that those of different faith traditions do not have to believe or accept our beliefs. But questioning our Church’s understanding of her own doctrine is not healthy debate, it’s just finger pointing. I don’t believe in the tenants of the Bahia religion. I don’t think they are true. However, I don’t question the understanding of those tenants by faithful Bahia. There is a difference.

 

[Servant19]

We have addressed these before a few times, Servant. We have quoted verses, explained the Trinity and all. People have taken the time and effort to explain about it but you keep asking like you don’t know half of what we said. I am not entirely sure if you are doing it on purpose or you are hearing yourself all these while.

If I want to feign ignorance and backhand these questions at you, I would question why would you persistently quote and suggest St. Basil when you did not have the faintest clue what he stood for yet you were suggesting that he taught that Jesus is not God. St. Basil had fought passionately against Arianism and he died as a martyr holding steadfast that Jesus is God. Lol…

Alright for the last time, I am going to quote Post #93 from Gabriel. I gotta give the guy credit for a well-written post on this topic. I have benefited from it and hope you do as well. It cannot get any simpler and yet detailed for you to contemplate, Servant. And then, I yield to you on this topic too.

Hi there Guy,

I am genuinely not trying to frustrate you or ignore any post at all.

Maybe I am misunderstanding something.

My understanding is that “God” is the term used for the ULTIMATE REALITY, the Entity beyond which there is no other, and who proceeds from no-one, is the root Cause of all things, is the Source of everything that can possibly be.

What you quoted from Gabriel’s post does not answer the question as to how you can claim Jesus is God, when He proceeds FROM the Father, is begotten FROM the Father.

Do you see the dissonance here?

Or am I not understanding something?

.

 

[Servant19]

The Trinity is a mystery of our Faith. There are probably countless volumes written by scholars and theologians throughout church history to present on the topic. This matter will not be resolved on a message board. What I wonder, however, is how someone of a different faith tradition can come to a Catholic forum and tell Catholics that their understanding of their own Catholic doctrine is incorrect. We can agree that those of different faith traditions do not have to believe or accept our beliefs. But questioning our Church’s understanding of her own doctrine is not healthy debate, it’s just finger pointing. I don’t believe in the tenants of the Bahia religion. I don’t think they are true. However, I don’t question the understanding of those tenants by faithful Bahia. There is a difference.

Hi Michael,

If you notice, I did not start this thread. If you also may wish to investigate further, the Baha’i religion is falsely represented in this forum, (this thread has surprisingly been very amicable for the most part, except for posts #42 and #43, go look at them, they are very enlightening) and indeed is even considered a manifestation of Satan, and demonic.

I will leave the rest to your innate capacity to do what is entrusted in you by God

God bless you…

.

 

[GuyNextDoor]

I am genuinely not trying to frustrate you or ignore any post at all.

Maybe I am misunderstanding something.

My understanding is that “God” is the term used for the ULTIMATE REALITY, the Entity beyond which there is no other, and who proceeds from no-one, is the root Cause of all things, is the Source of everything that can possibly be.

What you quoted from Gabriel’s post does not answer the question as to how you can claim Jesus is God, when He proceeds FROM the Father, is begotten FROM the Father.

I beg to differ. Below was what you were asking in the previous post.

How can Jesus be God, when another Person (the Father) is:

1. The point of origin
2. The cause
3. The life giving source, and
4. The root of the Son?

Does God originate “from” something else?
Is God caused?
Does God receive sustenance from another source?
Does God spring forth from a “root” or a foundation?

Thus I quoted from Gabriel’s post to answer your questions:

Many of the Early Church Fathers describe Jesus teaching the “Father is greater than the Son” by the revealed procession in the divine economy of the Trinity.

The Father proceeds from no one. The Father sends and eternally begets the Son.

The Father gives everything the Father has to the Son except the begetting, because the Son does not beget another.

The Son does everything the Father is doing, thus the Son sends the Holy Spirit or the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.

The Father Loves the Son and the Son Loves the Father

The Father Wills, it pleases the Son to do the Will of His Father.

The Father is greater than the Son is the sending and begetting of the Son not made.

From this divine economy of the Trinity reveals the Father is greater than the Son in procession.

It is important to grasp here, that this divine economic procession is an eternal procession outside of space and time.

The eternal begetting and sending from the Father, if I can describe it in human terms to reflect this eternal procession, is the same as God who breathes and speaks His life in Trinity.

The Eternal procession or Eternal breathing (metaphor) of God sends (breathes) life (Holy Spirit the Lord the give of Life) and begets His only begotten Son, When God speaks His Word God the Father who does not proceed from no one, begets His only begotten Son. This God breathes and God Speaks reveals God lives. Here we still remain in the realm of eternity in God’s Essence eternally Existing breathing sending life, and speaking begets a Son to fulfill the Will of the Father.

This eternal procession of God who breathes and speaks His Word or eternally begets the Son. Is revealed in space and time in the presence of the Holy Trinity of persons, when the Voice = Father is heard, the Word = the only Begotten Son of the Father is sent out and the Holy Spirit perfects and makes divine revelation known or He is the Lord and giver of Life. When the presence of God is made known in the Trinity of persons, the Essence of God is veiled in each person when each person is God in revelation, because the Essence of God does not come down to us.

In short the Father is greater than the Son because God breathes and speaks and lives.

When the Father is God, who speaks His Word begets the Son who in the beginning was with God and the Word is God and all life and creation came through Him and the Word became flesh and made His dwelling among the human race = Emmanuel.

When God the Father breathes life who is life, sends the Spirit who is the Lord the giver of Life.

God and the Holy Spirit is God in presence in space and time who gives life in Him, with Him, through Him and from Him to what came to be from the Word who is God revealed in the fullness of time Jesus the Logos, Word of God incarnate.

Trinity is One God and no other eternally Pure Essence in being Existing. This Eternal Essence of God is undivided and never separated in the persons of the Trinity.

I personally feel the above post has adequately answered you, Servant.

We are currently now at the 100th-ish post and we both are still stuck at Jesus being God or not. No matter the verses we quoted from the Bible and the explanations which others took their precious time to type, you simply turned a blind eye to them while the best you done so far was to quote from St Basil claiming that he taught Jesus is not God, when the poor Saint fought against Arianism.

So my humblest apologies that I have to decline continuing this dialogue about the Holy Trinity & Jesus’ Divinity. I would rather leave this behind and continue where we paused:

… Please tell me of your understanding of the whole passage which included the verse you claimed as evidence that Jesus did not resurrect physically:

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being, the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. - 1 Cor 15:44-47

What do you think is a natural body and a spiritual body here, Servant? Paul did say body, and not anything else.

I will prefer very much a constructive dialogue more than one that keeps sapping from me.

Peace be with you.

 

[Servant19]

I personally feel the above post has adequately answered you, Servant.

HOW???



I have shown Gabriel’s post to all my colleagues at work, and they are all proficient in English, educated, medical background, and none of them can see where Gabriel has answered my question about the Ultimate Reality being God, yet, you claim that Jesus, who you claim to be God PROCEEDED FROM the Father.

This is dissonance of the highest order Guy. Yet you still proclaim that Jesus is God.

We are currently now at the 100th-ish post and we both are still stuck at Jesus being God or not. No matter the verses we quoted from the Bible and the explanations which others took their precious time to type, you simply turned a blind eye to them while the best you done so far was to quote from St Basil claiming that he taught Jesus is not God, when the poor Saint fought against Arianism.

It’s taken 100 posts because the question remains unanswered, and as I said, I have today asked my colleagues, and none of them see an answer to this dissonance in Gabriel’s post

So my humblest apologies that I have to decline continuing this dialogue about the Holy Trinity & Jesus’ Divinity. I would rather leave this behind and continue where we paused:

Your choice dear friend, I mean you no ill will
I just wish I could get some clear answers, rather than statements made for the sake of making statements, as if I must obey…if it was from Christ, I will accept but it seems all man-made to me, and simply generations of acceptance…which for the time, was absolutely the correct thing to do, but today, Baha’u’llah has clarified everything.

I truly am convinced, that with the study of Baha’i theology on this subject, it has cleared up for me everything that was a mystery about the seeming contradictions in Jesus Revelation about His station and relationship with the Essence of God. There is nothing (or very little, at least) that cannot be explained

.

 

[Servant19]

The Sun does not create a Sun Ray. The Sun ray is of the same substance of the Sun.

If the Sun could speak like almighty God, then the Sun sends out it’s Sun Ray to give of it’s light to darkness.

Dear Gabriel, this very much is true

The Sun does not “create” the sun ray, the sun ray “emanates” from the Sun.

In all ways, the sun ray shares fully its essence with the Sun, however, the Sun is not the sun ray…and there lieth the difference. The sun ray cannot claim to be the sun. Sure, it can claim to be one with the sun, it can claim to do as the sun willeth, but it never says that it is the Sun, far be it.

.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Servant19;12345610]

I have shown Gabriel’s post to all my colleagues at work, and they are all proficient in English, educated, medical background, and none of them can see where Gabriel has answered my question about the Ultimate Reality being God

Hello Servant19; I hope you did not mislead your colleagues into thinking that, myself or the Early Church Fathers of whom my posts have reflected the teachings of St. Basil, Justin Martyr, St. Hilary, St. Augustine and other Catholic Saints defined the ultimate reality of being God? Do your colleagues at work have the divine ability to define God?

For the record the Eternal Essence of God Existing is not defined on this side of heaven, because God’s Essence does not come down to us, No one disputes this.

Although Bahai appears to teach a definition of God’s Eternal Essence, which becomes an enlightenment to you, because Bahai uses science and created things visible to define the Essence of God from attributes of God that to you reflect an enlightenment, because your intellect can grasp at Bahai’s carnal understanding of a deity.

But to Christians we see with the mind of Christ those things revealed by the divine remain eternal undefined. Our faith is not based on carnal scientific enlightenments of thought expressions. Our faith is based on the invisible realities from which the visible realities come from.

Our Faith in the Trinity is divinely revealed by God himself to our humanity. Thus the Trinity remains a mystery that cannot be exhausted by a definition, which Bahai reaches for scientific undertakings to define a mystery of God?

When the True Christian Trinity is One God, does not compare to Bahai’s scientific trinity undertakings of different divine entities co-existing with one another as separated eternal beings.

, yet, you claim that Jesus, who you claim to be God PROCEEDED FROM the Father

.

St. Augustine states this procession with more emphasis to reach for here; “the Son is born of the Father”. Now would Bahai interpret Augustine to be speaking about a carnal birth in the realm of space and time of a Father giving birth to a son?

Or would Bahai interpret Augustine to be speaking about an eternal reality describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms with the human language. This is why you got St. Basil all confused. Yet You ran to St. Basil because the saint speaks very eloquently about the spiritual realities, using scientific words to describe at what God Himself revealed to our humanity, St. Basil never uses philosophy or science to define God. That is why Bahai’s writings contradict St Basil’s teachings on the Trinity.

I truly am convinced, that with the study of **Baha’i theology **on this subject, it **has cleared up for me everything that was a mystery about the **seeming contradictions in Jesus Revelation about His station and relationship with the Essence of God. There is nothing (or very little, at least) that cannot be explained ]

Your quote above highlighted is spoken with a true scientific mind Servant 19, if Bahai’s theology claims to define the mystery of God? then Bahai’s God no longer exists.

In short only God reveals who God is, God does not accept testimony from man of who God is. How can Bahai claim to know everything of the mystery of God’s Essence, when Bahai is never God? More on this on my following response to your post.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Servant19;12345621]Dear Gabriel, this very much is true

The Sun does not “create” the sun ray, the sun ray “emanates” from the Sun.

Here you leave St. Basil’s teaching of the Sun and Sun ray, who teaches both are of the same substance, which he used as a metaphor to describe the Father and the only begotten Son of the Father are of the same substance in divinity existing eternally not divided or confused to use St. Basil’s words.

Your sun metaphor moves from the substance of the sun to a different topic of what proceeds from the sun.

These two distinct qualities of the sun, substance and procession is what you confuse Bahai’s and your theology with St. Basil.

In all ways, the sun ray shares fully its essence with the Sun, however, the Sun is not the sun ray…and there lieth the difference

.

I’m glad you reached the understanding that the Sun and the Sun ray are of the same substance of being sun.

The difference is; The Sun (Father) is distinct from the sun ray (Son) in procession because the sun ray (Son) is sent out or begotten from the Sun (Father), at the same time the Essence or substance of the Sun (Father) is not separated from Essence or substance of the sun ray (Son).

When we profess the Trinity of persons are distinct from one another, as the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father in revelation or procession, to use the metaphor here, The Sun is distinct from the Sun Ray because the sun ray proceeds from the Sun in revelation or act. Never the less the Sun is in the Sun Ray and the Sun Ray is in the Sun because the Sun Ray comes from the Sun.

Where Bahai leaves God’s revelation of the Trinity. Bahai divided God’s Essence into two different Essence co-existing eternally. When you have your sun ray (metaphor) sharing it’s own Essence apart from the sun’s Essence as if they are two different entities co-existing, When Bahai has two distinct eternal entities co-existing eternally you have polytheism no matter how pretty Bahai paints it’s picture, it has dual deities co-existing.

The sun ray cannot claim to be the sun. Sure, it can claim to be one with the sun, it can claim to do as the sun willeth, but it never says that it is the Sun, far be it.

No, you have it all wrong Servant 19.

The Son is distinct from the Father in the begetting (revelation ) or divine eternal procession. Just as the Sun and Sun ray are distinct in procession of action. The Sun does not proceed but the sun ray proceeds from the sun. The Father proceeds from no one, but the Son proceeds from the Father.

The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father in procession revelation, just as the Sun’s Essence is of the same Essence of the Sun ray, but are distinct from one another in revelation or procession.

The one who can help Bahai and your understanding of these mysteries which are never exhausted, is the presence of God in the person of the Holy Spirit. In all this analogy or metaphor’s, what is lacking is the procession of the Holy Spirit in all of this, for it is God who teaches us who God is, and our teacher is God in the person of the Holy Spirit until Jesus returns.

Now the persons of the Trinity reveal God’s Presence not God’s Essence, this is a mystery to grasp at especially in the incarnation of the Jesus Christ who is God with us. Essence is not the procession of the Father who begets His only begotten Son.

We don’t confuse God’s Essence with God’s revelation from God’s presence revealed in the Trinity of persons consubstantial One God in Pure Essence Existing, God’s Essence Existing supersedes eternity itself out side of time and space.

Peace be with you

 

[Servant19]

Hello Servant19; I hope you did not mislead your colleagues into thinking that, myself or the Early Church Fathers of whom my posts have reflected the teachings of St. Basil, Justin Martyr, St. Hilary, St. Augustine and other Catholic Saints defined the ultimate reality of being God? Do your colleagues at work have the divine ability to define God?

Of course not dear friend

No one has the ability to define the Essence of God. I would never mislead anyone to think that this is so…

For the record the Eternal Essence of God Existing is not defined on this side of heaven, because God’s Essence does not come down to us, No one disputes this.

Yes again, we are in agreement

Do not think however that when you profess that Jesus is “True God from True God” that you are actually implying that God’s Essence has come down to us? Is that not misleading us possibly? That you profess that Jesus is this, yet you also profess that “God in His Essence does not come down to us”? Is this not a dissonance?

Although Bahai appears to teach a definition of God’s Eternal Essence, which becomes an enlightenment to you, because Bahai uses science and created things visible to define the Essence of God from attributes of God that to you reflect an enlightenment, because your intellect can grasp at Bahai’s carnal understanding of a deity.

No dear friend, the Baha’i teachings in no place define God’s Essence. Even the Sun Ray cannot define the Sun itself

But to Christians we see with the mind of Christ those things revealed by the divine remain eternal undefined.

Yet when you say that “Jesus is God” you are in actuality defining them…

Our faith is not based on carnal scientific enlightenments of thought expressions. Our faith is based on the invisible realities from which the visible realities come from.

I am fully aware of that

Did you know that the Baha’i Faith is also based on the invisible realities from which the visible realities come from too?

Our Faith in the Trinity is divinely revealed by God himself to our humanity.

As is ours
In fact there is not an adherent of one global religion on earth that does not think likewise (barring some Buddhists of course, but there is not one Buddhist I have spoken to that does not believe in God)

Thus the Trinity remains a mystery that cannot be exhausted by a definition, which Bahai reaches for scientific undertakings to define a mystery of God?

No need for scientific exploration of something that is beyond science.

All we ask for is some reasoning.

Jesus said this and this and this, therefore we say this, and it absolutely conforms with this, this and this which Jesus said also.

I have not seen a reasoning why Jesus is God if He is proceeding “from” the Father and the Father is the “root cause” of Jesus. All indications point to the Father being God, beyond the reach of us human beings, and Jesus being “A God” for the epistemological benefit of humanity’s puniness and finite-mindedness. That makes sense. I need not “define” anything undefinable to apply logic to this conceptual framework

When the True Christian Trinity is One God, does not compare to Bahai’s scientific trinity undertakings of different divine entities co-existing with one another as separated eternal beings.

Can you show me where you get the idea that Baha’is have a “scientific trinity” please?

St. Augustine states this procession with more emphasis to reach for here; “the Son is born of the Father”. Now would Bahai interpret Augustine to be speaking about a carnal birth in the realm of space and time of a Father giving birth to a son?

Not a carnal birth. The Baha’i principle of knowledge reflects the same principles of knowledge that Christianity employs.

Do the Jewish saints have a full understanding of God?

I would say that the Baha’i understanding of God is reflective of a fulfillment of an incomplete understanding, which St. Augustine professed. When St. Augustine states that Jesus is God, while also stating that He was the born of the Father, I’m convinced he really was stating what had been taught to him by his forefathers, without really questioning the full implications, because as you state, and others state, this is a mystery.

Baha’u’llah has opened the door to this mystery a little bit more

Your quote above highlighted is spoken with a true scientific mind Servant 19, if Bahai’s theology claims to define the mystery of God? then Bahai’s God no longer exists.

No, it does not define anything about the mystery of God, but clarifies the relationship between the Essence of God and the Word…this God exists, I assure you, I feel Him every day

In short only God reveals who God is, God does not accept testimony from man of who God is. How can Bahai claim to know everything of the mystery of God’s Essence, when Bahai is never God? More on this on my following response to your post.

Peace be with you

I am pretty sure that were God to reveal His true Self to humanity, we would be unable to survive for one moment. Who are we? Really…who are we?

God, in His essence, provides small drops of milk for us, through the Krishna’s, the Jesus’s and the Baha’u’llah’s of this world. We cannot take any more than that, we cannot bear it…as we evolve, as our consciouness evolves, as our collective spirituality evolves, God opens the door a little bit more from age to age. The unanswered mysteries become more answered, the confusions become clarified, and the man-made is set apart from the divine…

God bless you Gabriel

.

 

[Servant19]

Never the less the Sun is in the Sun Ray…

This is our difference dear friend…

The Sun most certainly is not in the sun ray…

Components of the sun are endowed upon the sun ray, but the Sun is most definitely greater and has attributes far beyond the reach and knowledge of the sun ray…and likewise it is with God’s Essence, (True God) and the Word…

I, on the other hand, am a grain of sand under your foot

.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Servant19;12345754]Of course not dear friend

No one has the ability to define the Essence of God. I would never mislead anyone to think that this is so…

Do not think however that when you profess that Jesus is “True God from True God” that you are actually implying that God’s Essence has come down to us? Is that not misleading us possibly? That you profess that Jesus is this, yet you also profess that “God in His Essence does not come down to us”? Is this not a dissonance?

True God from True God is God giving revelation of God from God. I told you already God does not accept testimony from man of who God is. Only God reveals God to our humanity when God is True God from True God.

No, the dissonance exists when human minds try and define God’s Essence in other things visible and comprehensible. When God is infinite to our finite minds. God has made it simple for our humanity, when the voice of the Father in heaven spoke from the cloud “This is my Son, listen to Him”.

Servant19 God’s Essence does not come down to us. Eternity which points to God’s Essence Existing is not revealed in space and time.

That said; God’s Presence not Essence is revealed in each distinct person of the Blessed Trinity, which relates to the divine economy or procession of God from God in revelation. The Essence or divinity of God is veiled in Each person of the Trinity, when we profess the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God consubstantial in Essence and being One God revealed in the persons of the Trinity.

**Just for you; Servant 19 what I write next is an example which images the Essence of God and the blessed divine economy of the Blessed Trinity of persons revealing God from God.

Man is created in the image and likeness of God. Thus man in this example will represent God the Father in heaven and man’s beloved will represent God’s church, the bride of the groom.

When man speaks his word “I love you” to his beloved bride, did the bride receive the man’s essence from which man speaks? No.

The Bride received the man’s love in the word which proceeded from the mouth of the man.

The bride received the man’s love from what proceeded from the man’s voice proceeds his word and his breath proceeds from both the voice and the word.

Yet the bride recognized her beloved’s voice and word from the man’s spirit which proceeded from both the voice and the word.

That breath of the man represents or images the Holy Spirit, or the man’s spirit proceeded from his voice and word into the hearing of the bride who received the man’s love in the “I Love You”.

The trinity of voice, word and breath or spirit in this case, proceeded into her heart. The Essence of the man’s being did not penetrate the brides heart, the man’s spirit of love which proceeded from his voice and word. It is the spirit of the man proceeding in the “I Love You” made present to the bride from the voice and word that reveals or makes the voice and word known to her, that the voice and word came from the brides beloved her bridegroom who gives her his love which proceeded from man’s essence of being into the brides heart.

When God spoke from all eternity His Word to you and me; “I Love you”. God’s Essence did not come down to us. What came down to reveal God’s Love for us was revealed from the presence of the Father’s voice that say’s eternally, “I love you”, that Word I love you proceeded from the Father’s voice and that Word came from the Father, when God speaks the voice is revealed in the Word sent and the Word is revealed in the voice, when we have the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father, what proceeds from the voice and the Word of God is the Spirit or breath of God the lord who gives life and who makes the voice and word known to our humanity in space and time.

God who is Existence itself eternally willed to reveal His Love for us and to us, manifested His presence in Trinity in space and time God’s love from all Eternity from His Essence veiled in the Word of God made flesh Jesus Christ our bride groom.**
Armed with this mystery, now read the mystical teachings of Jesus Christ and see it all fit together a revelation of God’s love for you and me that supersedes all carnal science and flesh understandings

Peace be with you