Believing in the True Jesus - Christians vs Baha'is

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This is our difference dear friend…

The Sun most certainly is not in the sun ray…

Components of the sun are endowed upon the sun ray, but the Sun is most definitely greater and has attributes far beyond the reach and knowledge of the sun ray…and likewise it is with God’s Essence, (True God) and the Word…

I, on the other hand, am a grain of sand under your foot 🙂

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Jesus teaching is; the Father is greater than the Son. what St. Basil states is that the sun and sun ray consist of the same substance. What your misunderstanding is the procession or revelation of God which has it’s distinctions in the persons of the Trinity confusing God act with God’s Essence.

I already covered why the Sun is distinct from the sun ray in procession, but not in substance. The Sun is greater because ti does not come down to us only the sun ray does. If the Sun came down to us we all die. Just as God’s Essence does not come down to us, but God’s presence comes down to us revealed in Trinity not Essence.
 
God’s Nature and His being are one and the same.

just because human beings use the word generation (not procession – Catholics do not use the word procession to describe the relationship between the Father and the Son) to describe the relationship does nothing to diminish the Son’s possession of the Divine Nature. why would it? how would it?

the important thing when thinking about the Son’s generation by the Father is to understand that the generation is eternal, from before time and after the end of time the Son is generated by the Father. therefore the Son possesses one attribute we humans recognize as part of the Divine Nature. that is that none of the Three Persons of the Most Holy Trinity were ever brought in to being. all Three have always been and always will be.

do not get confused by the use of the words generation and procession being used to describe the internal relationships of the Most Holy Trinity. they have nothing to do with time or cause and effect.

some appear to believe that using the word proceeds from indicates that their existed at some point in time only the Father. that is neither Catholic nor Christian belief. in fact, such an assertion is a complete misstatement of Christian belief. after you internalize that, you will realize that to argue against the Christian doctrine of the Trinity a person must support or demonstrate why one would reject the idea that the Son and the Holy Spirit are eternal and neither was EVER brought in to existence.

the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are One in that They possess identically all of the attributes of the Divine Nature. They posses one knowledge, whole and complete. They posses one will. the Father never wills differently from the Son and the Holy Spirit.

do not get hung up on the words used to describe the relationships between the Three. because the word proceeds might imply prior existence it does not mandate prior existence. the same is true of the word generates. the error lies in misunderstanding the doctrine. there is no before the Son was generated. there is no before the Holy Spirit proceeded.
 
to respond to the misunderstanding a little more simply, in Christian doctrine on the Trinity it is necessary to know that the Son is not dependent upon the Father for anything and the Holy Spirit is not dependent upon the Son or the Father for anything and that the Father is not dependent upon the Son or the Holy Spirit for anything. they are independent as Persons but identical as to Nature. whatever one says about the Son is also true of the Father and the Holy Spirit except for saying that the Son is the same Person as the Father and the Holy Spirit.

anything you might read in Sacred Scripture or other writings about the Holy Trinity the seems to indicate, imply or state something different that the above is being misunderstood.

so, when someone says that proceeds indicates prior existence. they are wrong.

that is totally and completely what the Sacred Scriptures and other RC writings do not mean.
 
Servant19;12345754]
Can you show me where you get the idea that Baha’is have a “scientific trinity” please?
I did, re-read post #68 and #88. Bahai has the visible (what is scientifically known) attributes of God co-existing identical with God’s Essence. When the color green can be an attribute of a lizard, the color green is not the lizard’s Essence of being.

The mystery of the Trinity reveals that God is Love. Yet that Essence of Love does not come down to us. The eternal Love who is God, sends His Love to us in space and time in the revelation of the persons of the Trinity = presence of Love is parted to us from the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. The pure Essence Love who is God and God is Spirit does not come down to us.

Love revealed in space and time becomes an attribute of God revealed by the Trinity. When God is Love and Spirit in pure Essence Existing Eternally outside of time and space sends Love in the presence of the Trinity.
 
Catholics profess this faith in Jesus revealed to us by God from God’s presence through the Word of God incarnate Jesus Christ.

I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made.

For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures.

He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in **the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, **who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.

What is Bahai’s profession of faith in Jesus?
 
True God from True God is God giving revelation of God from God. I told you already God does not accept testimony from man of who God is. Only God reveals God to our humanity when God is True God from True God.

No, the dissonance exists when human minds try and define God’s Essence in other things visible and comprehensible. When God is infinite to our finite minds. God has made it simple for our humanity, when the voice of the Father in heaven spoke from the cloud “This is my Son, listen to Him”.
Forgive me dear Gabriel, however, this sounds like blind faith to me. This is the main reason we have so many man-made religions in the world. Anyone can claim to be God, perform some simple sorcery, disguised as miracles and then “reveal” teachings which make no sense whatsoever (not that the Trinity makes no sense, I’m just giving an example here) and eliminate all the naysayers by saying “you have no right to question, this is from God, you know! You only have a human mind, and your intellect is not sufficient to understand anything I tell you, but you MUST accept it blindly”

The foundational basis for worship of God is that He endowed us with reason.
Servant19 God’s Essence does not come down to us. Eternity which points to God’s Essence Existing is not revealed in space and time.
Let me say this one final time Gabriel 🙂

You keep stating this, even though I persistently and lovingly correct you 🙂

Baha’i teachings does not say that God’s essence comes down to us. Can you point out where this conclusion has come from please?

HOWEVER…let me point out some Catholic teaching to you dear friend: (and this is where the dissonance exists, because you, a learned Catholic states that His essence cannot exist in space and time, and Thomas Aquinas states the opposite.)

In Summa, Thomas Aquinas states:
God is in all things; not, indeed, as part of their essence, nor as an accident, but as an agent is present to that upon which it works…
Further, others said that, although all things are subject to God’s providence, still all things are not immediately created by God; but that He immediately created the first creatures, and these created the others. Against these it is necessary to say that He is in all things by His essence.
Therefore, God is in all things by His power, inasmuch as all things are subject to His power; He is by His presence in all things, as all things are bare and open to His eyes; He is in all things by His essence, inasmuch as He is present to all as the cause of their being

That said; God’s Presence not Essence is revealed in each distinct person of the Blessed Trinity, which relates to the divine economy or procession of God from God in revelation. The Essence or divinity of God is veiled in Each person of the Trinity, when we profess the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God consubstantial in Essence and being One God revealed in the persons of the Trinity.
So, having established that we can compare the Father to the sun, and the Word to its First Sun Ray, are you here concluding that the Sun is nothing more than a larger collection of sun rays?

When you look at the sun today, are you just looking at a big ball of sun rays and nothing else?
**Just for you; Servant 19 what I write next is an example which images the Essence of God and the blessed divine economy of the Blessed Trinity of persons revealing God from God.
God who is Existence itself eternally willed to reveal His Love for us and to us, manifested His presence in Trinity in space and time God’s love from all Eternity from His Essence veiled in the Word of God made flesh Jesus Christ our bride groom.**
Armed with this mystery, now read the mystical teachings of Jesus Christ and see it all fit together a revelation of God’s love for you and me that supersedes all carnal science and flesh understandings
Peace be with you
Thankyou for this beautiful, and poetically written exploration Gabriel.

Hand on heart, I enjoyed reading it. 🙂

I don’t wish to spoil my enjoyment by analysing it and breaking it down for the purposes of our dialogue here. Suffice to say that it touched me that you put the time in writing it dear friend.

Thankyou again…

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Jesus teaching is; the Father is greater than the Son. what St. Basil states is that the sun and sun ray consist of the same substance. What your misunderstanding is the procession or revelation of God which has it’s distinctions in the persons of the Trinity confusing God act with God’s Essence.

I already covered why the Sun is distinct from the sun ray in procession, but not in substance. The Sun is greater because ti does not come down to us only the sun ray does. If the Sun came down to us we all die. Just as God’s Essence does not come down to us, but God’s presence comes down to us revealed in Trinity not Essence.
I agree with all of this dear Gabriel.

Why therefore, with this knowledge in mind does Christianity state that “Jesus is God”?
It equates to you saying that the sun ray is the Sun.

Do you say that the sun ray is the sun?

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HOWEVER…let me point out some Catholic teaching to you dear friend: (and this is where the dissonance exists, because you, a learned Catholic states that His essence cannot exist in space and time, and Thomas Aquinas states the opposite.)
That is not at all what Gabriel said. 😉
Originally Posted by Gabriel of 12
Servant19 God’s Essence does not come down to us. Eternity which points to God’s Essence Existing is not revealed in space and time.
 
Servant19;12347783]Forgive me dear Gabriel, however, this sounds like blind faith to me… I’m just giving an example here) and eliminate all the naysayers by saying “you have no right to question, this is from God, you know! You only have a human mind, and your intellect is not sufficient to understand anything I tell you, but you MUST accept it blindly”
The foundational basis for worship of God is that He endowed us with reason.
Catholicism is not a blind faith by no means. My Catholic faith is based on sound reason and revelations of God from God. The Catholic Church does not reveal who God is. God revealed to the Church of who God is, this divine revelation and divine teachings of my faith are revealed by God not man.

I don’t judge your intellect or reason, I merely suggested our minds and intellect cannot define God. Only God from God reveals who God is.

God the Son in presence revealed this; John 6:43…"Do not murmur among yourselves No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him;…it is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught by God.not that any one has seen the Father except him who is from God; he has seen the Father".

God continues to teach and remind the body of Christ = Catholic Church what God revealed in the Son = Jesus to our humanity in the presence and protection of the Holy Spirit. Here is God incarnate revealing His promise to us; John 16:7…" Nevertheless I tell you the Truth; it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counsellor will not come to you; but if I go, I WILL SEND HIM TO YOU. And when He comes…When the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all Truth…For He will take what is mine and DECLARE IT TO YOU. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that He will take what is mine and declare it to you…
Baha’i teachings does not say that God’s essence comes down to us. Can you point out where this conclusion has come from please?
I did not draw that conclusion of Bahai; of God’s essence. I repeat again; Bahai has God’s revealed attributes in space and time co-existing, co-eternal and co-eternal as separated entities of emanated degrees with God’s Eternal Essence which does not comes down to us. Bahai’s view is never Christian and remains a contradiction of what God the Son revealed from His presence incarnated when the Word of God became flesh in the fullness of time not eternity.
HOWEVER…let me point out some Catholic teaching to you dear friend: (and this is where the dissonance exists, because you, a learned Catholic states that His essence cannot exist in space and time, and Thomas Aquinas states the opposite.)
In Summa, Thomas Aquinas states: God is in all things; not, indeed, as part of their essence, nor as an accident, but as an agent is present to that upon which it works…
Further, others said that, although all things are subject to God’s providence, still all things are not immediately created by God; but that He immediately created the first creatures, and these created the others. Against these it is necessary to say that He is in all things by His essence.
You just massacred St. Thomas’s writing and thought; Thomas Aquinas does not have God’s Essence “nor as an accident” ,“but as an agent is present to that upon which it works”. St. Thomas Aquinas supports the Trinity here, because he does not have God’s Essence not even an accident of God’s essence present in creation. What God reveals is His Presence (Trinity) which he describes as an agent possessing God’s Essence is veiled to creation because, God’s Essence is not part of creation essence, “nor as an accident, but as an agent is present to that upon which it works”…

St. Thomas apology reveals here against those who falsely believe “all things are not immediately created by God”, but God only created the first creatures all these created others. St. Thomas argued that "He, (God) is in all things BYHis Essence.

St. Thomas clarified first that God’s essence is not a part of creation; Yet BY God’s Essence all things exist, thus BY God’s essence being veiled in God’s presence (Trinity), which Thomas used a scientific word of “agent is present”, that By (agent) His essence He is in all things. It is BY God’s Essence, that His Essence is in all things. In short, it is because God’s Essence is Existence itself, by His presence (Trinity) as an agent, God’s Essence is mysteriously in all things existing. Thomas apology supports the Church’s profession when we declare in liturgy of worship to God; “In Him, With Him and Through Him, All glory and honor is Yours Almighty Father, forever and ever”.

I find no contradiction in the Catholic Saint Thomas apology and the Catholic Church’s revelation from God that, "NO ONE has never seen the Father, except Him (Jesus) who comes from the Father, He has seen the Father. Thus the Essence divinity is veiled in the presence of God the Son incarnate who is the Word God Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of the Father.

cont;
 
Cont;
Thankyou for this beautiful, and poetically written exploration Gabriel.

Hand on heart, I enjoyed reading it. 🙂

I don’t wish to spoil my enjoyment by analysing it and breaking it down for the purposes of our dialogue here. Suffice to say that it touched me that you put the time in writing it dear friend.

Thankyou again…

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Your welcome Servant 19, although I question my expression of my Catholic faith is far from poetic, nevertheless, I received your sentiment with great joy to my person, even though the joy shared in communion here is done without my Essence being present to your Essence of being.

God "works " as St. Thomas used “works” to describe God’s Essence in all things, to which I conclude; God works in mysterious ways and God’s ways are not our ways.

Peace be with you
 
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Hello Gabriel, can you tell me where the conclusions you make here come from please?
I did not draw that conclusion of Bahai; of God’s essence. I repeat again; Bahai has God’s revealed attributes in space and time co-existing, co-eternal and co-eternal as separated entities of emanated degrees with God’s Eternal Essence which does not comes down to us. Bahai’s view is never Christian and remains a contradiction of what God the Son revealed from His presence incarnated when the Word of God became flesh in the fullness of time not eternity
Where did you read that the essential attributes of God are viewed as “separate entities” from the essence of God?

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I agree with all of this dear Gabriel.

Why therefore, with this knowledge in mind does Christianity state that “Jesus is God”?
It equates to you saying that the sun ray is the Sun.

Do you say that the sun ray is the sun?

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NO; My faith is reasonable; The Sun ray is of the same Substance as the Sun. The substance of sun existing has the Sun in the Sun Ray and the Sun Ray in the Sun.

The Sun Ray is distinct from the Sun in presence and procession, act. The Sun does not proceed, the Sun Ray proceeds from the Sun never divided or separated in substance being, distinct in revelation and procession.

I have repeated this over three times Servant 19. Looking at these mysteries without faith in Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of the Father can be difficult to understand St. Basil’s teaching of the simple Sun metaphor of substance and sun ray applied to reach with faith the Father and the Son are One in Essence being divinity.

When the Catholic Saints write, they write with faith describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms. They do not write with carnal minds reaching into the depths of God’s revealed mysteries.

Please consider as a Catholic I believe, God’s revelations remain mysteries to us, because God’s revelations are eternal and cannot be exhausted or reached with a definition to define God from the mind man. Faith is called for here to continue in the mysteries of God, were reason and intellect leave off or have done their part.

Mystery of God such as the Trinity does not mean that God’s presence is not approachable. Trinity remains mystery because God’s Eternal Essence Existing is hidden or veiled in the presence of God in the persons of the Trinity that cannot be defined in human words.

For no one See’s God as God is and lives. Except Jesus who comes down from the Father in heaven, thus the Sun in the heavens and the Sun Ray proceeding from the Sun to give it’s light and new life.

Peace be with you
 
NO; My faith is reasonable; The Sun ray is of the same Substance as the Sun. The substance of sun existing has the Sun in the Sun Ray and the Sun Ray in the Sun.

The Sun Ray is distinct from the Sun in presence and procession, act. The Sun does not proceed, the Sun Ray proceeds from the Sun never divided or separated in substance being, distinct in revelation and procession.

I have repeated this over three times Servant 19.
I apologize that you have repeated yourself this many times dear Gabriel.

I am only on this thread, and in fact in this forum altogether, because of the ludicrous and disrespectful claims made about the Bahai Faith from Catholics, ranging from Satanic worship, to, as GuyNextDoor did, placing a large “Heresy” stamp for all Catholics to see and nod to in coherent unison, completely ignoring the wonderful fruits of the Spirit that the Bahai community is reaping for mankind, all in the name of the Will of the Father.

I believe I too have repeated myself on several occasions. While I agree with all that you write above about procession and the sharing of substance between God and the Word, the Sun and the Sun Ray, it takes a tremendous stretch of Faith and internal validation to call them both one, undivided entity.

I personally, cannot see it as reasonable to call them both God, for the simple, logical reason that the Sun is much more, tremendously more, than a collection of sun rays. The bottom line is, the Father “is” greater than the Son, and procession occurs from a greater Entity, and God cannot have anything greater, He is the Ultimate Reality.

I find the conclusions made by the Church in this regard as noble and holy, and the impact the Church has had on humanity over the centuries has indeed been, for the most part, very empowering, and I would never call the Church satanic or heretical for concluding something about God and the Word which I beleive to be a stretch for my puny mind. I’m not uneducated, and I have discussed this dialogue with several colleagues (to make sure that I am not losing my mind lol) and it seems clear to me. I honour your faith and all I ask is that Catholics honour ours.

Should a Bahai come here, or on the Bahai forum and start disrespecting Catholicism to the extent I have seen here about Bahai, we would unite to stamp out such ill-educated commentary. I hope and pray that the Catholics can also find the courage to do the same.

Baha’i’s are doing Gods work. Catholics will not find one endeavour undertaken by Bahais that would embarrass or concern the Catholic Faith. We want love and unity and a focus on the things that bring us together as Gods children, not segregate us.

I pray for that to be manifested by Catholics too, around the world, and especially here on CAF

God bless you 🙂

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I am only on this thread, and in fact in this forum altogether, because of the ludicrous and disrespectful claims made about the Bahai Faith from Catholics, ranging from Satanic worship, to, as GuyNextDoor did, placing a large “Heresy” stamp for all Catholics to see and nod to in coherent unison, completely ignoring the wonderful fruits of the Spirit that the Bahai community is reaping for mankind, all in the name of the Will of the Father.
Before we even go into details on the history lessons from you and have this thread burn like the old threads when they strayed out of topic, dear friend… 🙂

…Shall I lovingly quote all of the posts from all the previous threads (which I still have in a separate folder under my Subscription list), including this one that shows Baha’i been using passages that were ripped out of context, twisted to fit the Baha’i view, ignoring all else that the Bible or the Saints were saying? And then explaining Baha’ism using our torn-apart Bible, the doctrines and writings of the Saints to Christians about the Baha’i beliefs, before claiming that all of it was man-made, blind faith and nothing but mere generations of acceptance? The irony is that we are still being quoted non-stop despite our ‘blind faith and irrationality, due to generations of acceptance’.

You and the others have been corrected by the Catholics in this forum about the Church & Her teachings multiple times, even more so when you questioned our understanding of Catholicism, but you still persisted in misinterpreting what the Catholic Church teaches in order to prove a particular point to which the Holy Catholic Church has never agreed upon with.

Explain to me now how was that not ludicrous & disrespectful?

You only have to tell me to quote all of them and I will start compiling everything, so that the other Catholics as you said, can see and nod in ‘cohorent’ unison. I do not wish to even go there but rather move on instead, out of love for you. However if you tell me you want me to and I will expect you to address them one by one in return before I even take the time to go about this project in a different thread. Agree? Your choice, Servant.

Let me remind you, dear friend, that I have not once quoted from a Baha’i teaching as of yet, much less ‘twisted’ it. Most if not all of my posts were spent correcting your understanding of everything you quoted from the Scriptures, to which Gabriel has done a much better job than me, and with greater patience too.
Should a Bahai come here, or on the Bahai forum and start disrespecting Catholicism to the extent I have seen here about Bahai, we would unite to stamp out such ill-educated commentary. I hope and pray that the Catholics can also find the courage to do the same.
Dear Servant, I pray also that Baha’is find the courage in them to stop ripping apart our Scriptures, twisting the verses so persistently and using our Saints teachings to mislead fellow Catholics, etc (as if the Saints taught heretical teachings) in order to prove a Baha’i point. That itself is, as you so lovingly put it, an ill-educated behavior.

So yes I agree completely that we should all stop being so ‘ill-educated’, dear friend. 👍 Shall we move on to a more fruitful dialogue with forgiveness?

Peace be with you.
 
Before we even go into details on the history lessons from you and have this thread burn like the old threads when they strayed out of topic, dear friend… 🙂

…Shall I lovingly quote all of the posts from all the previous threads (which I still have in a separate folder under my Subscription list), including this one that shows Baha’i been using passages that were ripped out of context, twisted to fit the Baha’i view, ignoring all else that the Bible or the Saints were saying? And then explaining Baha’ism using our torn-apart Bible, the doctrines and writings of the Saints to Christians about the Baha’i beliefs, before claiming that all of it was man-made, blind faith and nothing but mere generations of acceptance? The irony is that we are still being quoted non-stop despite our ‘blind faith and irrationality, due to generations of acceptance’.

You and the others have been corrected by the Catholics in this forum about the Church & Her teachings multiple times, even more so when you questioned our understanding of Catholicism, but you still persisted in misinterpreting what the Catholic Church teaches in order to prove a particular point to which the Holy Catholic Church has never agreed upon with.

Explain to me now how was that not ludicrous & disrespectful?

You only have to tell me to quote all of them and I will start compiling everything, so that the other Catholics as you said, can see and nod in ‘cohorent’ unison. I do not wish to even go there but rather move on instead, out of love for you. However if you tell me you want me to and I will expect you to address them one by one in return before I even take the time to go about this project in a different thread. Agree? Your choice, Servant.

Let me remind you, dear friend, that I have not once quoted from a Baha’i teaching as of yet, much less ‘twisted’ it. Most if not all of my posts were spent correcting your understanding of everything you quoted from the Scriptures, to which Gabriel has done a much better job than me, and with greater patience too.

Dear Servant, I pray also that Baha’is find the courage in them to stop ripping apart our Scriptures, twisting the verses so persistently and using our Saints teachings to mislead fellow Catholics, etc (as if the Saints taught heretical teachings) in order to prove a Baha’i point. That itself is, as you so lovingly put it, an ill-educated behavior.

So yes I agree completely that we should all stop being so ‘ill-educated’, dear friend. 👍 Shall we move on to a more fruitful dialogue with forgiveness?

Peace be with you.
Happy to move on if you wish however, let it be known that when I converse with my children, my parents, my friends, a common theme of exploration is to question.

My son would often question my long held beliefs, my cultural, religious and family traditions, but he never resorts to the depths of calling me satanic, or my religion an embodiment of satan, or my family traditions demonic, etcetc

There’s a line, and you are either questioning with respect or you are just blatantly disrespectful. I honour my child for always questioning respectfully.

When I was younger, at school, we had a gang of thugs who every while and then they would corner the “different ones” (you know, the foreigners, or the ones with glasses, or the ones with ginger hair) and put a skull and cross bone stamp on their hands so that the “other” sheep in the school could laugh at the “victim”

I’m not a big fan of stamps 🙂
…Nor of labelling others…(do you label your children as heretics if they cannot accept that Jesus is God? If they struggle to understand how God could “proceed from” another Person? It’s not irrational in the least…)

I find it baffling that you are equating my questioning and respectful apologetics with what is effectively playground bullying.

Peace and goodwill to you.
 
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May I ask, please, is the non-Catholic section of this forum here for the sole purpose of adherents of other religions to be corrected?

Is it disrespectful and rude to question, rationalize and reason about each other’s beliefs?

I’m a little confused as to what the intentions of a non-Catholic forum is…

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May I ask, please, is the non-Catholic section of this forum here for the sole purpose of adherents of other religions to be corrected?
Happy to move on if you wish however, let it be known that when I converse with my children, my parents, my friends, a common theme of exploration is to question.

………………….

There’s a line, and you are either questioning with respect or you are just blatantly disrespectful. I honour my child for always questioning respectfully.
Dear Servant, I am not saying these without any basis. Let me pull out just one recent example among many off the top of my head; when you were corrected by people about what St. Basil wrote against what you were attempting to use as a backing to a Baha’i point of view. After a couple pages, you resumed back to the same St. Basil about his Sun and the Ray of the Sun once more, like nothing we corrected meant anything to you at all, making the poor Saint look like a heretic! And that’s not the first time either Servant, because your next attempt massacred the teachings of St. Thomas Aquinas.

I never had any issues with Baha’ism, just so you know before you start a defence of associating me with those who might be bullies or biased towards Baha’ism. Your assumptions of what the Holy Catholic Church teaches aren’t the issue here. It’s not even an issue that you are not a Christian or that you do not see eye-to-eye with what the Church teaches. The issue is when people decided that they have any right to persistently misinterpret the same Scriptures & the same Saints over and over again in order to prove their own view or belief, no matter the number of times we explained & corrected repeatedly the errors that any Baha’i have misunderstood about what they quoted from us. That itself, my dear friend, is not questioning and exploring. That is dishonesty in trying to explain a Baha’i belief under the pretence of dialogue, of questioning and exploring, by massacring what our Church teaches.

So yes there is indeed a line between a respectful dialogue with one that is lacking of respect, as you pointed out. Hopefully now you can recognize that, instead of constantly playing that “I am a victim of persecution” with me. Either you respect each other boundaries or you don’t get any either. Period.
My son would often question my long held beliefs, my cultural, religious and family traditions, but he never resorts to the depths of calling me satanic, or my religion an embodiment of satan, or my family traditions demonic, etcetc
Have I ever called you that, Servant? Can you please point out where I ever called anyone / any religion satanic?

The only time I recalled ever placing a heresy stamp was in the previous thread was when you and tonyfish kept stubbornly trying to correct us of our Scriptures, which turns out that the correction was NEVER Christian. Before you even get all upset about the meaning of “Heresy”:

Heresy - Belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine.

How is it offensive when all Baha’is stated so clearly that Christianity and Baha’ism are two separate independent religions? Or did you manage somehow to come to a conclusion that Heresy means Satanic? Or perhaps you were upset because you couldn’t get the last word in before the thread was closed?

If my daughter ever decides to become a Christian in the future, but has residual teachings from other religions in her head that are not in accord with the Holy Catholic Church, I would lovingly tell her to be careful of the differences because it is heresy and that she should know the correct teachings if she wish to be a true Christian. Should she be offended here? Or assume that I am calling her a Satanist or what she believed before becoming a Christian as Satanic?
I find it baffling that you are equating my questioning and respectful apologetics with what is effectively playground bullying.
I am more baffled that it has not occurred to you to at least contemplate anything that I have said to you before.

Anyways, I will yield to you so that this thread can resume back to its original topic. I have no desire for us to make a scene here, spoiling the thread for everyone. You are not my ex-wife. :slapfight:

Peace be with you.
 
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May I ask, please, is the non-Catholic section of this forum here for the sole purpose of adherents of other religions to be corrected?

Is it disrespectful and rude to question, rationalize and reason about each other’s beliefs?

I’m a little confused as to what the intentions of a non-Catholic forum is…

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why should the Christian believe, as the bahai teach, that Bahaullah who lived 1,800 years after the events being discussed knows what occurred better than the apostles who experienced it?

this is the bahai faith. its followers believe that what the apostles experienced and taught the followers of Jesus is wrong and these errors have been taught and believed for the last almost two thousand years by the Roman Catholic Church.

the bahai teach that the true version of events that occurred to the apostles only became known through the person of Bahaullah. a further aspect of the bahai claim is knowing that Bahaullah knew very little about the teachings of the RCC. this is evidenced by the fact that in the tens of thousands of pages he wrote or dictated almost nothing relates to the teachings of the RCC.

I may be mistaken but I do not think Bahaullah claimed to get the hundreds of thousands of words he wrote or dictated directly from an angel, as mohammed claimed. he rejects the teachings of the apostles primarily based on his own person and what he knew and understood.

so, the question remains, why believe that the apostles got it all wrong and Bahaullah got it all right?
 
why should the Christian believe, as the bahai teach, that Bahaullah who lived 1,800 years after the events being discussed knows what occurred better than the apostles who experienced it?

this is the bahai faith. its followers believe that what the apostles experienced and taught the followers of Jesus is wrong and these errors have been taught and believed for the last almost two thousand years by the Roman Catholic Church.

the bahai teach that the true version of events that occurred to the apostles only became known through the person of Bahaullah. a further aspect of the bahai claim is knowing that Bahaullah knew very little about the teachings of the RCC. this is evidenced by the fact that in the tens of thousands of pages he wrote or dictated almost nothing relates to the teachings of the RCC.

I may be mistaken but I do not think Bahaullah claimed to get the hundreds of thousands of words he wrote or dictated directly from an angel, as mohammed claimed. he rejects the teachings of the apostles primarily based on his own person and what he knew and understood.

so, the question remains, why believe that the apostles got it all wrong and Bahaullah got it all right?
You said it all case closed 👍👍👍
 
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