Believing in the True Jesus - Christians vs Baha'is

[Servant19]

what we call God’s attributes, eternal, infinite, all-knowing, all-powerful, omnipresent, etc. are human terms used by humans to explain that Perfect Being cannot be limited. however, the attributes are neither God’s nature nor His essence.

I agree with you here eddie. This is called via negationis in philosophy, and it is expressed in all major global religions.

another attribute we attribute to the Lord is that He is also Perfectly Simple. thus what we call His attributes are our way of understanding in our finite and limited way Him as He has revealed Himself through Jesus, the o.t. prophets, Sacred Scriptures and the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church.

I agree again

consequently, discussion of whether or not God exists separately from His attributes is for the most part, nonsensical.

I’m a touch confused by this.
Maybe you could clarify what you mean.

A painter can find some of his attributes expressed and existing separate from him in his painting.

Its a logical conclusion from “the Commander, the Command, the expression” principle of all creative expressions.

.

 

[Servant19]

Yes, that is the question. Not really sure if it is relativism. What I find interesting is the ability of any person to hold two or more conflicting beliefs simultaneously and claim them all to be “the truth”. It truly boggles the mind.

I really can’t see the reason for your mind boggle Steve. It is the very basis of all educational establishments on the face of the planet.

Wisdom, catered towards capacity.

If your local school can do it, then I am sure the All-Wise One, the Supreme Educator of all creation is perfectly capable of doing the same…

Why do you tell your child that a Tooth Fairy exists, only to tell them later that there’s no such thing as fairies?

Why did God tell the Jews categorically that the Messiah will rule the physical world, and bring instant peace and justice, but Jesus came and went without a trace of peace for the Jews…throughout the centuries they have endured massacres since?

Why would God command that the essence of right relationship with Him is founded in circumcision, then changes His mind and says that in fact, ALL His Laws are like “death”?

Christianity hasn’t bent and twisted Jewish Scripture, revered by millions throughout the centuries, to “make” Jesus the Messiah…

Maybe you can revisit what you describe, since all true religions have done it since the dawn of time.

.

 

[eddie_too]

it is nonsensical to discuss whether God is separate from His attributes because we know that God’s attributes are human creations. God is not a human creation. consequently, what is the point of a discussion of whether or not God is separate from His attributes?

we already know the answer.

if a person wanted to challenge whether or not God’s attributes are creations and say that they are not, then the discussion would have some merit.

but, if we all agree God and His attributes are not the same thing, what is the point of discussing that over and over and over?

 

[eddie_too]

Gabriel,

I am kind of I the steve vh camp when it comes to the bahai. the bahai who post here seem to be incapable of understanding that with the Incarnation, there is no further revelation needed. the relationship between the Creator and His creation has been revealed to the extent human beings are capable of accepting and understanding it.

the bahai teach a doctrine that some might call evolutionary revelation. by that I mean that the bahai believe that what was true for the chosen people at the time of moses is not true for later generations of the chosen people. that is because the world changes over time. this change includes mankind’s understanding of the world and of its Creator.

there is an element of truth In this claim. even the RCC acknowledges that its understanding of Jesus and the Divine Mysteries He revealed can become fuller by acknowledging what has been observed and discussed since the Ascension.

for example, the teachings about the sacrament of baptism have grown to include “implied faith”. the understanding of the Holy Eucharist has grown with the development of the concept of transubstantiation. the doctrines surrounding the priesthood have grown greatly. the early Church did not have all of the sophisticated theological, scriptural and legal development that the 21st century Church has available to it. two thousand years of prayer, meditation and contemplation can add much to our understanding of the faith.

however, where we RCs disagree with the bahai is on the eternal verities, the Divine Mysteries, that we know only because Jesus revealed them to us. an example of this are the mystery of the Holy Trinity, the mystery of the Incarnation, the mystery of the Resurrection, the mystery of the Ascension, etc., etc. etc.

because these Divine Mysteries deal with the very nature of God and the purposes of His creation, they are not going to change because God does not change.

when God reveals to us that Jesus is the Incarnate Word, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, there is no future understanding that can change that reality. there is only the development of a deeper and fuller understanding.

to say Jesus is merely a creature that nearly perfectly manifests our Creator to us is not a deeper understanding. it is a rejection of the understanding given to us by Jesus Himself.

another example is the mystery of salvation. the doctrine that mankind lost its intimate relationship with its Creator through the sin of Adam; and, that because of this loss mankind was denied its original purpose, that is to live eternally with God are eternal truths about this world. as is the doctrine of Atonement whereby faith the suffering and death of Jesus was sufficient to restore the relationship lost through Adam’s sin. this is what Jesus taught us. when the bahai re-interpret what Jesus taught us, they often lose the essence of the teaching. the bahai are not accepting the Divine Mysteries we received from Jesus. they are re-interpreting them to mean something different.

returning to the mystery of salvation for example, if the bahai were correct that revelation is an evolutionary process and not a divinely ordained process, and that consequently, the RCC’s doctrine of salvation is no longer necessary for understanding our relationship throughout history with our Creator, it is the same as saying that mankind’s relationship with God was never out of kilter and that Jesus sacrifice changed nothing but man’s understanding of that relationship. it is saying Jesus did not create a metaphysical change (a change in the essence of reality – mankind formerly deemed unworthy because of Adam’s sin and now through Jesus becoming man and sacrificing Himself on the cross redeemed worthy).

this difference between bahai and RC is quite obvious when you go to their websites and examine what they say they have received from Bahaullah and why it is important. if you do this, you will notice that all that Bahaullah taught relates to this world and how people In this world should think and act. there is nothing or next to nothing about the Divine Mysteries revealed to us by Jesus.

Christianity is first and foremost about God’s love for His human creatures. it reveals to us that the misery in this world does not come from our Creator. through Jesus we know that the misery comes from Adam’s sin and our fallen natures. fallen natures that we are born with thanks to the change in mankind’s relationship with its Creator. a relationship that was intrinsically changed by that sin.

so, it makes some sense for the bahai to believe Bahaullah if they were to accept all that Jesus revealed. but for some reason, they cannot accept all that Jesus revealed. for some reason, they insist on changing it to mean what they want it to mean. I am not sure if their insistence is based on what Bahaullah taught them or is simply their misunderstanding of what Bahaullah taught them.

I do look a little skeptically at the Bahia claims for Bahaullah for the very reason that Bahaullah seems to know very little about the Divine Mysteries given to us by Jesus.

 

[SteveVH]

I really can’t see the reason for your mind boggle Steve. It is the very basis of all educational establishments on the face of the planet.

Really? The basis of all educational establishments on the face of the planet consists in holding conflicting positions simultaneously as being true? 1+1 = 2 and 1+1 = 3? In my school we had to determine what was true. And if we got the wrong answer we got penalized for it. They didn’t accept all answers as being equally true because they aren’t.

Wisdom, catered towards capacity.

I see. The non-Baha’i world’s capacity for understanding is so limited that we just can’t comprehend the heights of enlightenment found among the Baha’i. We have only been fed milk and when we mature in our understanding we will accept the Baha’i paradigm. Yeah, I get it.

If your local school can do it, then I am sure the All-Wise One, the Supreme Educator of all creation is perfectly capable of doing the same…

My local school didn’t do it. We were taught that some things are true and other things are false and it is our duty and obligation to discern between the two. That is why we went to school.

Why do you tell your child that a Tooth Fairy exists, only to tell them later that there’s no such thing as fairies?

For fun, and nothing else.

Why did God tell the Jews categorically that the Messiah will rule the physical world, and bring instant peace and justice, but Jesus came and went without a trace of peace for the Jews…throughout the centuries they have endured massacres since?

I wasn’t aware that God ever told the Jews “categorically” that the Messiah will rule the physical world and bring instant peace and justice. Maybe you could point me to those verses.

Why would God command that the essence of right relationship with Him is founded in circumcision, then changes His mind and says that in fact, ALL His Laws are like “death”?

Not sure where you got the “All His laws are like death”.

Just as God revealed himself, in parts, over time, he also established covenants over time.

The first covenant was with, Adam and Eve, the sign being the Sabbath. The second was with Noah, the sign being the rainbow. The third was with Abraham, the sign being circumcision. The fourth was with Moses, the sign being the Passover. The fifth was with David, the sign being Solomon’s Temple. The sixth was through the prophecy of Jeremiah, the new and everlasting covenant, the sign being the Eucharist.

God did not change his mind. As God revealed himself more and more to us he kept expanding his family through covenants, progressing from a couple, to a family, to a tribe, to a nation, to a kingdom, and finally, with God’s final revelation of himself in Jesus Christ, the new and everlasting covenant in his blood, which would embrace the entire world.

Christianity hasn’t bent and twisted Jewish Scripture, revered by millions throughout the centuries, to “make” Jesus the Messiah…

No, we haven’t. This is true. We don’t deny anything in the Old Testament. How I wish this was true with the Baha’i.

Maybe you can revisit what you describe, since all true religions have done it since the dawn of time.

Have done what?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

SteveVH;12364695]Yes, that is the question. Not really sure if it is relativism.

Bahai has a form of relativism = Relativism is the philosophical position that all points of view are equally valid, which relates to cultures, society and the religion. What may set Bahai apart from real relativism, is that it welcomes all religions and cultures at the expense of welcomed religions losing their identity to follow Bahai religion.

What I find interesting is the ability of any person to hold two or more conflicting beliefs simultaneously and claim them all to be “the truth”. It truly boggles the mind.

I understand the boggle here; Servant 19 made an interesting comment about “revelation progresses”, when we were discussing God’s Essence.

I tried to clear up the distinction, but Servant19 introduced a subject with sources to justify Divine Revelation progresses. Yes it can get confusing. It appears Bahai would have God progress God’s revelation. God’s revelation does not progress, only our understanding of God’s revelation develops and progresses.

Servant 19 under the auspice of Bahai, Sees all historical religions before it, as God’s revelation progressing in each until it get’s to Bahai. What does Bahai do with all the others that come later in the future? Does it remain in the state it is in, or does Bahai pretend to claim that it’s revelation will continue to progress? Writing this, I feel like I’m dictating for a Hollywood fiction film.

That is why all discussion with the Baha’i soon becomes fruitless. They are not interested in our faith, they are only interested in how they can turn it in the direction of Baha’u’llah.

Interesting; I have read it’s (some) writings, I see it connecting terminology that mirrors Christianity and other religions, but when magnified, I find many contradictions and carnal knowledge understanding mixed with philosophical concepts that conflicts with the substance of Christianity. Which is the subject about Jesus on this thread.

Thanks for your insights

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

eddie too;12366842]it is nonsensical to discuss whether God is separate from His attributes because we know that God’s attributes are human creations. God is not a human creation. consequently, what is the point of a discussion of whether or not God is separate from His attributes?

Hi, eddie too; The discussion is not the attributes of God and Essence per se. I am trying to learn from Servant 19 if his/her view agrees with the Bahai writings in regards to God’s attributes being co-eternal with God’s Essence? Two things are still hanging in the balance here; 1. Either Servant 19 posted Bahai’s writings out of it’s context. 2. Or Bahai has Jesus as an attribute of God. I have yet to get an answer.

Servant 19 to date; has Jesus is not God, Jesus is not only flesh. I’m interested knowing here. If Bahai’s Jesus is not God, and Jesus is not flesh only? Please define what is this other degree of nature that Jesus posses that is other than God and more than human?

Thus attributes and Essence and what is eternal existing appears repetitive.

If you can assist on these matters it is most appreciated.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabriel,

I am kind of I the steve vh camp when it comes to the bahai. the bahai who post here seem to be incapable of understanding that with the Incarnation, there is no further revelation needed. the relationship between the Creator and His creation has been revealed to the extent human beings are capable of accepting and understanding it.

I do look a little skeptically at the Bahia claims for Bahaullah for the very reason that Bahaullah seems to know very little about the Divine Mysteries given to us by Jesus.

Thank you eddie too for your post, I absorbed every letter. I believe you hit the nail on the head from the above underlined.

Bahai at the start of it’s writings has a keen insight into the science of things visible. The problem I find with the writings is that it takes that carnal (science) knowledge and attempts to reach into Christianity’s divine revelations without the Spirit of God, who teaches and reveals the divine revelations of God who proceeds from the Father and the Son to declare what the Son revealed.

How can Bahai’s prophet reveal or teach of a divine mystery of God, when the Bahai religion does not believe, teach in the Holy Trinity of persons that is revealed by God. The divine revelation of the Trinity does not progress. The Trinity proceeds God’s presence. Our understanding progresses and develops to a greater knowledge. Faith matures here, yet the believer shrinks in more humility.

Thank you for your commentary;

Gabriel of 12

 

[SteveVH]

Bahai has a form of relativism = Relativism is the philosophical position that all points of view are equally valid, which relates to cultures, society and the religion. What may set Bahai apart from real relativism, is that it welcomes all religions and cultures at the expense of welcomed religions losing their identity to follow Bahai religion.

Yes, I do agree that relativism plays a part, but as you say, there is more to it. While claiming all religions as a part of God’s progressing revelation they, at the same time, reject the doctrines of those very religions. It is like a hermit crab taking over the shell of another creature. What was inside no longer remains and the new inhabitant is nothing like the original.

I understand the boggle here; Servant 19 made an interesting comment about “revelation progresses”, when we were discussing God’s Essence.

I tried to clear up the distinction, but Servant19 introduced a subject with sources to justify Divine Revelation progresses. Yes it can get confusing. It appears Bahai would have God progress God’s revelation. God’s revelation does not progress, only our understanding of God’s revelation develops and progresses.

Well, even the CC teaches that God’s revelation of himself was given in parts, over time through various prophets, culminating in God becoming one of us and dwelling among us in the Person of Jesus Christ:

*“‘In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son.’ Christ, the Son of God made man, is the Father’s one, perfect, and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one. St. John of the Cross, among others, commented strikingly on Hebrews 1:1-2.

In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word—and he has no more to say… because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty."* (CCC par 65)

This is the issue that causes the greatest divide. There will be no further revelation because God has already spoken his one Word and he has no other. The entire basis for the Baha’i faith tradition relies on Christ being insufficient, incomplete, therefore leaving the world in need of more and greater revelation from God. It completely contradicts the Person of Jesus, as understood by Christians.

Servant 19 under the auspice of Bahai, Sees all historical religions before it, as God’s revelation progressing in each until it get’s to Bahai. What does Bahai do with all the others that come later in the future? Does it remain in the state it is in, or does Bahai pretend to claim that it’s revelation will continue to progress? Writing this, I feel like I’m dictating for a Hollywood fiction film.

I believe they will tell you that Baha’u’llah, for some reason, is the last revelation. I could be wrong.

Interesting; I have read it’s (some) writings, I see it connecting terminology that mirrors Christianity and other religions, but when magnified, I find many contradictions and carnal knowledge understanding mixed with philosophical concepts that conflicts with the substance of Christianity. Which is the subject about Jesus on this thread.

Yep.

Peace.

Steve

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Servant19;12366276]If they are using this analogy to imply that the sun is equal to the sun ray, then they used the wrong analogy

.

No, the saints spoken of here, do not relate the sun is equal to the sun ray. What is implied metaphorically here is; That Light substance the Sun has in it’s presence, the Sun ray also has while it is proceeding from the Sun to earth.

Do not add anything more to this concept, because the Catholic Saints do no go into unchartered scientific carnal knowledge here about the Sun and Sun ray to describe not defne, the Father and the Son are consubstantial, yet distinct from one another in presence, because the Father does not proceed, but the Son proceeds from the Father to our humanity to give us His Light.

When you start adding science, such as heat, sun flares, H2o, energy, nuclear and gases, you just left St. Basil and St. Thomas Catholic faith expression of the Trinity. When the saints do not use carnal knowledge to define a mystery of God. They use these limited human tools to describe not define spiritual realities in spiritual terms discerned with the Spirit of God, which they received at their baptism’s in Jesus Christ.

That may be the problem with Bahai, it pretends to add science a carnal knowledge to define the mysteries of God, when God’s Essence is Existence, which is a famous teaching from St. Thomas Aquinas by the way; is eternal that is not revealed in space and time.

Yet Bahai’s new science of the visible defined by man, takes this enlightenment and try to define a mystery of God. When it never takes science here, but faith. This faith begins with believing in Jesus is the Word incarnate = Emmanuel who is God’s presence revealed in flesh to our flesh.

What is the difference between when two things share the same “substance” and when one thing actually “IS” something else?

That is a great question and I am glad you asked it; My answer will be a Short version for the fourth time. Trinity = “PROCESSION”.

What is revealed distinctly from one another is from the procession **and the presence **of each, what remains substantial in each presence revealed in space and time veiled and never divided, confused or separated is the Essence Existing which is eternal that is not revealed in time and space, because space and time cannot contain eternity existing in it’s presence. Just as God placed His hand over Moses in a cave as He passed by, only to reveal the tail of His glory, which we can also witness in creation.

The Father is one person Existing distinct from the Son who proceeds from the Father in Presence, because the Father does not proceed, the Father is the single principle from which procession begins, So the Father (voice) is present in revelation from the beginning of the procession, the Son fulfills the procession of God’s presence and the Holy Spirit present makes the divine revelation known.

Your A,B,C.D.E and sun definition do not apply with that of St. Basil’s teaching, because he never teaches from these, as you do. A reason the saint probably does not relate science here, because science cannot define God, because the Laws which govern science were created by God, who is the law giver.

So the sun ray that comes to you on a bench, does so ever so lovingly and tenderly and can warm you and give you light to your darkness. If the Sun came to you, you would certainly perish. That is why the Father sends His only begotten Son, to save you not destroy you. God saves you with His presence not His Essence. That same Essence the Father has in His presence revelation, is the same Essence the Son has in His presence revelation, distinct in revelation from procession yet all three persons of the Trinity is One God.

This sounds close to the Baha’i concepts, but may I ask, can the Father, in His essence, come down into Creation?

God can do all things in all times eternally. Catholics never place God in a box. Because God calls His creation Good. God does not violate His own creation laws, man does plenty of violation here.

God’s presence is made known, in God the Father’s voice to Adam, Noah, Abraham, to Moses at the burning bush, to Israel in the desert by fire at night and cloud by day, God’s presence is made known in His Word and God’s Word became flesh in our presence with God the Son’s presence who walked among us Emmanuel. Now God’s presence is made known to all for all ages in His blessed sacrament in Eucharist, until Jesus returns for His bride.

When God makes His presence known, God veils His Essence with His presence in time and space, note God veils His Essence for our sake not His. When have you ever seen time and space exist in themselves eternally? Time and space will cease to exist if touched with eternity. Thus God’s Essence does not come down to us, because creation in time and space will cease (die) to exist if it touched or saw God’s Essence. Glory to God for His divine revelation from the presence of the Trinity.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

SteveVH;12367328]
Well, even the CC teaches that God’s revelation of himself was given in parts, over time through various prophets, culminating in God becoming one of us and dwelling among us in the Person of Jesus Christ:

Can’t go wrong with the CC. Those distinct parts and various ways of God’s revelation is tremendous. For this discussion sake, it is important to clear up that God’s revelation came down to us in diverse ways and parts to creation from a creation view to accept them in faith. Introducing St. Augustines theme here, of the New is hidden in the Old and the Old is revealed and fulfilled in the New.

From St. Augustines take, God’s revelation from the Old Testament is revealed to the flesh in diverse ways and parts, that same revelation does not progress or change in of itself, God’s revelation from the flesh representing the Old becomes fulfilled in divine promise and purpose in the New, who is Jesus Christ Himself, who breaks down that dividing wall barrier that separated the flesh from the Spirit, making our flesh one in the Spirit to grasp at the understanding of all that was revealed or written in faith has come to fulfillment by divine revelation from the presence of God’s presence in the Son =Jesus.

If Bahai’s claim of Jesus are true, we never gain the promise of the Spirit from Old and our guilt and sin remain with us, If God is never Emmanuel we are the pitied of all men. Does the prophet of Bahai claim to take away the sin of the world? Which only God himself can do.

Thanks for the CC quotes,

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Can you share what you think those few verses from Proverbs mean please. It is indicative of a Person (referred to as a “she”) and it is “from God” and it is outside of time and space, yet still created by the Lord.

 

[SteveVH]

If Bahai’s claim of Jesus are true, we never gain the promise of the Spirit from Old and our guilt and sin remain with us, If God is never Emmanuel we are the pitied of all men. Does the prophet of Bahai claim to take away the sin of the world? Which only God himself can do.

From what I have gleaned from the thousands of Baha’i posts is that the “sin of the world” is something that causes them no great concern. In fact, the eternal destiny of the soul does not really appear on the radar, certainly not as the primary focus. Baha’u’llah’s apparent purpose is to establish a just society on earth, not to save our souls. We save our own souls through attaining greater knowledge and wisdom.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

From what I have gleaned from the thousands of Baha’i posts is that the “sin of the world” is something that causes them no great concern. In fact, the eternal destiny of the soul does not really appear on the radar, certainly not as the primary focus. Baha’u’llah’s apparent purpose is to establish a just society on earth, not to save our souls.

I have heard whispers and winds of new doctrines being introduced under this disguise. About a world wide religion comprising of all faiths as one. This type of religion is when man is for the sake of man from man, when religion is God for the sake of man from God.

So we go from welcoming and accepting a host of different deities that finds it’s end resulting in no religion of God is necessary to save you for eternal life disguised in Atheism?

It never ceases to amaze me, how I learn something new, when I visit these boards.

Peace be with you

 

[Servant19]

Really? The basis of all educational establishments on the face of the planet consists in holding conflicting positions simultaneously as being true? 1+1 = 2 and 1+1 = 3? In my school we had to determine what was true. And if we got the wrong answer we got penalized for it. They didn’t accept all answers as being equally true because they aren’t.

I see. The non-Baha’i world’s capacity for understanding is so limited that we just can’t comprehend the heights of enlightenment found among the Baha’i. We have only been fed milk and when we mature in our understanding we will accept the Baha’i paradigm. Yeah, I get it.

My local school didn’t do it. We were taught that some things are true and other things are false and it is our duty and obligation to discern between the two. That is why we went to school.

For fun, and nothing else.

I wasn’t aware that God ever told the Jews “categorically” that the Messiah will rule the physical world and bring instant peace and justice. Maybe you could point me to those verses.

Not sure where you got the “All His laws are like death”.

Just as God revealed himself, in parts, over time, he also established covenants over time.

The first covenant was with, Adam and Eve, the sign being the Sabbath. The second was with Noah, the sign being the rainbow. The third was with Abraham, the sign being circumcision. The fourth was with Moses, the sign being the Passover. The fifth was with David, the sign being Solomon’s Temple. The sixth was through the prophecy of Jeremiah, the new and everlasting covenant, the sign being the Eucharist.

God did not change his mind. As God revealed himself more and more to us he kept expanding his family through covenants, progressing from a couple, to a family, to a tribe, to a nation, to a kingdom, and finally, with God’s final revelation of himself in Jesus Christ, the new and everlasting covenant in his blood, which would embrace the entire world.

No, we haven’t. This is true. We don’t deny anything in the Old Testament. How I wish this was true with the Baha’i.

Have done what?

Steve you really are not reading what I’m posting.

I’m sorry you conclude that schools teach the same thing from kindergarten to pre-university.
Maybe you went to a different schooling system to me.

My children go to the same school, which holds different positions on the story of Father Christmas, both contradictory. My daughter in kindy, swears that Father Christmas will DEFINITELY come into our house this Christmas.

My 11 year old son is anxious about offering her his contradictory viewpoint, given by the same school.

You must have gone to one of those schools that provides scientific data for his existence at high school, to ensure constancy from their kindy education.

.

 

[Servant19]

From what I have gleaned from the thousands of Baha’i posts is that the “sin of the world” is something that causes them no great concern. In fact, the eternal destiny of the soul does not really appear on the radar, certainly not as the primary focus.

Please show me one Bahai post that states this Steve

Thankyou

.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

From what I have gleaned from the thousands of Baha’i posts is that the “sin of the world” is something that causes them no great concern. In fact, the eternal destiny of the soul does not really appear on the radar, certainly not as the primary focus. Baha’u’llah’s apparent purpose is to establish a just society on earth, not to save our souls. We save our own souls through attaining greater knowledge and wisdom.

Certainly Baha’u’llah’s purpose is to establish a just society on earth, and to draw people nearer to God. The two purposes, social and spiritual, are part of basic Bahai doctrine. As for the gnostic idea, no, that is not part of Bahai teachings, although knowledge and wisdom are important, are they not?

Baha’u’llah teaches that Christ took away the sin of the world, although his terminology is different (he was after all speaking a different language).

"We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him."
(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 85)

As a matter of curiosity (because I studied at a Catholic seminary in the hey-day of liberation theology): is the “sin of the world” understood by Catholics today as structural sin, which is different to individual sins and must also be addressed, or is “the sin of the world” understood as the sum of all the individual sins in the world?

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

I believe they will tell you that Baha’u’llah, for some reason, is the last revelation. I could be wrong.

Bahais do not believe that Baha’u’llah’s revelation could be the last one. That would imply that God shut up shop and left us to it. Perfections are endless: we have faith that God will always be there to lead us on the next stage of the journey.

 

[peace_at_last]

Bahais do not believe that Baha’u’llah’s revelation could be the last one. That would imply that God shut up shop and left us to it. Perfections are endless: we have faith that God will always be there to lead us on the next stage of the journey.

I can’t make sense out of your words. What is the relation between God not sending a new prophet and God shutting up shop?

 

[Servant19]

.

No, the saints spoken of here, do not relate the sun is equal to the sun ray. What is implied metaphorically here is; That Light substance the Sun has in it’s presence, the Sun ray also has while it is proceeding from the Sun to earth.

Do not add anything more to this concept, because the Catholic Saints do no go into unchartered scientific carnal knowledge here about the Sun and Sun ray to describe not defne, the Father and the Son are consubstantial, yet distinct from one another in presence, because the Father does not proceed, but the Son proceeds from the Father to our humanity to give us His Light.

When you start adding science, such as heat, sun flares, H2o, energy, nuclear and gases, you just left St. Basil and St. Thomas Catholic faith expression of the Trinity. When the saints do not use carnal knowledge to define a mystery of God. They use these limited human tools to describe not define spiritual realities in spiritual terms discerned with the Spirit of God, which they received at their baptism’s in Jesus Christ.

That may be the problem with Bahai, it pretends to add science a carnal knowledge to define the mysteries of God, when God’s Essence is Existence, which is a famous teaching from St. Thomas Aquinas by the way; is eternal that is not revealed in space and time.

Yet Bahai’s new science of the visible defined by man, takes this enlightenment and try to define a mystery of God. When it never takes science here, but faith. This faith begins with believing in Jesus is the Word incarnate = Emmanuel who is God’s presence revealed in flesh to our flesh.

That is a great question and I am glad you asked it; My answer will be a Short version for the fourth time. Trinity = “PROCESSION”.

What is revealed distinctly from one another is from the procession **and the presence **of each, what remains substantial in each presence revealed in space and time veiled and never divided, confused or separated is the Essence Existing which is eternal that is not revealed in time and space, because space and time cannot contain eternity existing in it’s presence. Just as God placed His hand over Moses in a cave as He passed by, only to reveal the tail of His glory, which we can also witness in creation.

The Father is one person Existing distinct from the Son who proceeds from the Father in Presence, because the Father does not proceed, the Father is the single principle from which procession begins, So the Father (voice) is present in revelation from the beginning of the procession, the Son fulfills the procession of God’s presence and the Holy Spirit present makes the divine revelation known.

Your A,B,C.D.E and sun definition do not apply with that of St. Basil’s teaching, because he never teaches from these, as you do. A reason the saint probably does not relate science here, because science cannot define God, because the Laws which govern science were created by God, who is the law giver.

So the sun ray that comes to you on a bench, does so ever so lovingly and tenderly and can warm you and give you light to your darkness. If the Sun came to you, you would certainly perish. That is why the Father sends His only begotten Son, to save you not destroy you. God saves you with His presence not His Essence. That same Essence the Father has in His presence revelation, is the same Essence the Son has in His presence revelation, distinct in revelation from procession yet all three persons of the Trinity is One God.

God can do all things in all times eternally. Catholics never place God in a box. Because God calls His creation Good. God does not violate His own creation laws, man does plenty of violation here.

God’s presence is made known, in God the Father’s voice to Adam, Noah, Abraham, to Moses at the burning bush, to Israel in the desert by fire at night and cloud by day, God’s presence is made known in His Word and God’s Word became flesh in our presence with God the Son’s presence who walked among us Emmanuel. Now God’s presence is made known to all for all ages in His blessed sacrament in Eucharist, until Jesus returns for His bride.

When God makes His presence known, God veils His Essence with His presence in time and space, note God veils His Essence for our sake not His. When have you ever seen time and space exist in themselves eternally? Time and space will cease to exist if touched with eternity. Thus God’s Essence does not come down to us, because creation in time and space will cease (die) to exist if it touched or saw God’s Essence. Glory to God for His divine revelation from the presence of the Trinity.

Hi Gabriel,

I pretty much agree with the entirety of the post you make here, and from my understanding it aligns with Bahai theology.

What the Bahai Faith teaches however, is that a Person that “proceeds” from another Person is not God.

By what basis do you conclude otherwise?

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