Believing in the True Jesus - Christians vs Baha'is

[Servant19]

Psst. :blackeye: It seems to me you keep mentioning Invisibilia to me alone, probably thinking I was the one who posted that. Perhaps you would like to check back the previous thread who was the original poster mentioning about Invisibilia. lol :takeoff:

GuyNextDoor

Hi Guy (thanks for letting me call you that)

I know you didn’t say that brother, but I like to temper all the serious stuff with a small dose of humour whenever I can. I can get a bit heavy in these rooms sometimes, and I feel that with you, we can share a small smile whenever we use that word since we were both witness to it being used.

Only got a few moments now, will call back in later to dialogue further with your other posts above.

You make some very interesting points thank you

.

 

[Servant19]

Ok I have a few extra minutes (my wife is not ready yet, we are going out )

To understand the Essence of God:

Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. - Isaiah 44:6

Ok this is clearly God speaking to His Messenger Isaiah.

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.” - Revelation 1:17-18

This is Christ, yes He is an eternal Being, co-eternal with God, but not God

Holy, Holy, Holy, the Lord, God, the Almighty.* He who was, and He who is, and He who is coming.*** - Revelation 4:8

This is reference to God, who is co-eternal with the Word.

Please note that the word “HE” is used. God is a singular, not a trinity in this passage.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. - John 1:1

Some hermeneutic scholars (and I am aware this is a JW thing also, and I have my thoughts on them, but thats a different thread) believe that the Prologue should read “and the Word was with God, and the Word was A God”

That would make the sentence more understandable.

If this is incorrect, I’m happy to acknowledge that, I’m not an expert in Greek, however the question that cannot be answered every time I have asked it is, how can someone be WITH another person, and BE that another person?

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth - John 1:14

Yes, the Word did become flesh, in 1Peter , Peter talks about the Word being “manifested” in this world. The concept is the same as in Baha’i theology, but this does not equate to Jesus being one “in essence” with God.

Then God said to Moses, "I shall be who I Am. This is what you will tell the sons of Israel: **‘I Am **sent me to you.’" And God also said to Moses, “Thus you will say to the sons of Israel: ‘the Lord [the “is”], the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob sent me to you.’ This is My Name forever, and this is how you are to think about me for all generations.” - Exodus 3:14-15

So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am." - John 8:58

*"**I and the Father are one.” ***Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because **you, a mere man, claim to be God.”/**I] - John 10:30-33

The above tells us clearly. The First and the Last is God, and God is God, no more no less, immeasurable and immutable. No man can be first and be the last at the same time, only God alone.

GuyNextDoor

Dear friend, to conclude, the Sun has a first and a last. Its rays have a first and a last. I believe God is equated to the Sun in this analogy, and Jesus’ Divine aspect to be the Rays of that sun.

They are not one and the same in essence. They are separate Persons, but co-eternal. The rays emanate from the sun, they are created by the sun, and are not the actual sun, but are, like the sun, eternal, and everlasting…

Please if you get a chance read the link I supplied to Gabriel of 12 in my post #55

It will clarify a lot and will also shed light on what was found in the Works of Justin Martyr and St. Basil

Thankyou, gotta dash

.

 

[Techno2000]

A

**
Thankyou, gotta dash

.and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not FROM God; this is the spirit of the antichrist 1 John 4

God FROM God, Light FROM Light,
true God FROM true God,**

 

[GuyNextDoor]

…however the question that cannot be answered every time I have asked it is, how can someone be WITH another person, and BE that another person?

I understand how you feel. No matter what answers any person can give, it always seem lacking. Because our understanding is so limited when it comes to the divine. Sometimes we have to just accept the fact that not all answers can be provided adequately. It is not necessarily the teaching that is flawed but rather the mind is difficulty grasping. That why we call it a Mystery when it comes to the Holy Trinity. If science can’t give all the answers to everything that’s visible, how else can we expect to know anymore about the invisible?

It is extremely easy for us Catholics because we only need to have faith & to recognize what all the teachings lead to and just believe what the Scriptures teach, not by ourselves but with the Church who follows the teachings from Early Christianity and is infallible when it comes to doctrine. That is my comfort. Else there will be hundreds of different interpretations of the teachings if everyone decide to have their own interpretation.

Ok this is clearly God speaking to His Messenger Isaiah.
GuyNextDoor;12327835:

To understand the Essence of God:

Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last

; and besides me there is no God. - Isaiah 44:6

This is Christ, yes He is an eternal Being, co-eternal with God, but not God

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not,* I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.” - Revelation 1:17-18***

This is reference to God, who is co-eternal with the Word.

Please note that the word “HE” is used. God is a singular, not a trinity in this passage

Now that’s a very crucial question you have asked and I applaud you for that. Why did God describe Himself as singular here if Jesus is God?

No mere man, much less a holy man or prophet can hope to claim the title “The Alpha and the Omega”. That is reserved for God alone. Not even John the Baptist or the Virgin Mother can live up to that title.

Now lets go back to where God does not always describes Himself as a singular.

“Then God said, ‘Let us make man in our image, in our likeness…" - Genesis 1:26

“And the LORD God said, ‘The man has now become like one of us.’” - Genesis 3:22

“Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.” - Genesis 11:7

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I; send me!” - Isaiah 6:8

There is no chance that God is speaking to anyone else since Man was not even created at that time. Elohim, one of the primary titles of God in the Old Testament occurring over 2,500 times is in the plural form.

But that does not mean there are many Gods, for in Isaiah 45 when God made known Himself in the plural form, He also made known Himself in the singular form there.

GuyNextDoor

 

[GuyNextDoor]

Dear friend, to conclude, the Sun has a first and a last. Its rays have a first and a last. I believe God is equated to the Sun in this analogy, and Jesus’ Divine aspect to be the Rays of that sun.

They are not one and the same in essence. They are separate Persons, but co-eternal. The rays emanate from the sun, they are created by the sun, and are not the actual sun, but are, like the sun, eternal, and everlasting…

I understand that to be a teaching of Baha’i. However I still feel it is lacking, no offense. I tend to frown when people tell me that God is like the Sun, one of the reasons is that the Sun is subjected to time, space & impermanence, much less its rays, signs or symbols. Even the space which holds the Sun is subjected to time. Thus it is inadequate to me when trying to explain God in a worldly sense because it opens people up to too many different views of Him, but not one view is good enough.

When you sit quietly to meditate upon eternity, you will see that there is no sun, no moon, no time, no space but nevertheless there is a certain ineffable penetrating light which illuminates everything. That is the eternal Light. God is the eternal Light. He does not need a Sun or a Cause. He is eternal, immutable and unchanging.

The sun shall no longer be your light by day, nor for brightness shall the moon give light to you by night; but the Lord will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory. - Isaiah 60:19

Reflections does not exist in eternity, it is subjected to time. Thus to say that Jesus is only an image of God when He returned to the Father, does not quite make sense to me. Jesus is only the image of the Father on earth when He took our form, but in essence He is God.

It is usually hard for people to grasp God the Father, God the Son & God the Holy Spirit because they instinctively counted three Persons in the Trinity. They forgot that God exists in the Three Persons and the math do not necessarily need to be 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. It can be 1 ÷ 1 ÷ 1 = 1 or 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. To use math is also inadequate but I just proven the point it is not entirely impossible at all by human standards.

If we have created any establishments with the passages from the Scriptures I have shown you regarding God being both plural & singular, then we would have also deemed it logically possible that in the realm of eternity, outside the boundaries of time and space, (where reflection is subjected to time); God the Father is the eternal Light, God the Son cannot be anything other than eternal Light. And thus God the Son is also eternal, immutable and unchanging.

I am well-aware that the above reasoning may not be enough, but hopefully it helps you somehow to figure about the Trinity. The Holy Trinity is still what It is, a Mystery.

GuyNextDoor

 

[eddie_too]

keep in mind that sevant 19 does not speak for the bahai religion. also, remember that the Bahai do not have a written creed.

also, it is important to know that no bahai has ever read and explained all of the writings of Bahaullah.

we catholics tend to see other religions through our experiences with our own Church.

there is only one true Church. the bahai religion is not a church in the same sense that the Roman Catholic Church can be called a religion.

as others had noted, the Bahia do not have well-defined beliefs. it is possible for a bahai, just as it is possible for a muslim to know and understand his or her beliefs differently from other muslims and bahais.

this is not true of the Roman Catholic Church. what the RCC teaches is well-defined and has been clearly preached. the Creeds, the apostle and Nicene, are summaries of our dogmas presented in a form that allows even the most uneducated RC to know and remember them.

well the bahai can point to the hundred(s) thousand pages allegedly written by Bahaullah. it is important to realize that none of them have ever read everything written by bahuallah, much less analyzed them all in relationships to each other. there is no scholarly and systematic approach in bahai that adequately addresses all of the writings of Bahaullah.

for this reason, it is impossible for anyone to know whether or not there exists in the writings of Bahaullah contradictory claims, for example. or, claims that can be refuted by facts, as another example.

it seems to me that engaging a bahai in a theological discussion is similar to trying to deliver a stunning blow to a hanging string.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Servant19;12327649]Hi Gabriel, thankyou for reading the link, its liberating to see others willing to at least explore other thoughts and theologies

Your concerns expressed here are correct.

Your welcome Servant19, I try and make an effort to share my faith in season and out of season. Please consider I am not debating your views, I hope to share my faith and understandings that are in direct contradiction to Bahai’s view.

The analogy according to the Baha’i Writings would put the manifestation of God as the “Ray” emanating from the Sun. In fact, the Manifestation of God is the “First Emanation” from God, His “Primal Will”

Yes I follow you, but the Bahai’s Trinity reveals the sun ray as something other than the sun in terms of a reflection as in a polished mirror. Your sun ray and sun are two different entities separated by two different essence that are co-eternal.

When the Christian Trinity reveals each person of the Trinity is whole and one God in Essence never divided and never separated. What is distinct from each person of the Trinity is God’s Presence in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in revelation.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Servant19;12327649]
What the mirror represents is the HUMAN aspect of the Manifestation of God. These twin aspects, the human (mirror) and the Divine (ray) is summarised succinctly by Baha’u’llah where He emphatically declares:

We do not believe in any twin aspect’s of God, no twins exist as God’s Essence nor His presence, when the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are distinct from one another, no twins.

In relation to Jesus humanity, the Logos is fully incarnated = fully human/fully divine. No twins here but one. The presence of God is revealed in the Son who reveals the Father from His flesh to our flesh, yet the Essence of God or divinity of Christ is mysteriously hidden, but proven because all creation obey the Logos and is subject to Him including death which obey the Logos when Jesus cried out “Lazarus come out” not to exclude the miracle healings and forgiving sins in public. When only God can do such things.

Note how He says that He is God (the ray is speaking), while at the same time when He looks at the human flesh, it is coarser than clay (the mirror is being referenced)

Yes, I agree your Bahai relates two distinct deities as co-eternal. When it has the ray not containing the same substance as the sun from which it came. This is never Christian theology.

We should strive to look beyond the mirror, the flesh and blood, for it is not an inheritor of the Kingdom. It is only the “Life Giving Spirit” (the ray), as St Peter called it, that is of utmost importance

Peter’s utmost important commission is to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, when he calls all Jews and nations to be baptized at Pentecost.

No one can enter nor see the Kingdom of God unless he is born of water and Spirit, which is baptism.

The flesh of Jesus Christ is of the most utmost importance. Without the flesh and blood of Jesus humanity is never redeemed. With the flesh and blood of the resurrected Jesus Christ, the baptized are able to enter the Father’s presence.

You don’t get the Life giving Spirit without the flesh, blood of Jesus Christ. And our flesh dies in baptism in Christ and is resurrected in new life in the present and eternal life promised by eating and drinking the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ Eucharista.

Hope this assists in your understanding and clarification.

Yes. thank you, it helped to clear up that Bahai teaches a different gospel and a different Jesus from Catholicism.

Peace be with you

 

[SteveVH]

…But that does not mean there are many Gods, for in Isaiah 45 when God made known Himself in the plural form, He also made known Himself in the singular form there.

GuyNextDoor

Great post. It should also be pointed out that God’s very name; Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is spoken in the singular. We pray in the name rather in the names of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, Who is one God.

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is a revealed truth. How many volumes of Catholic writing there have been on this subject is any one’s guess; mountains. It has been believed since the beginning of the Church and the Church has gone to great lengths, through many heresies, to precisely as possible, define this belief and so guard and protect the truth it received.

This is the same Church that, after nearly 400 years had passed, canonized the Scriptures, choosing only those writings that authentically reflected the faith we received from the Apostles. That was the measure; did they stack up to the revealed truth that we already possessed and guarded. The Scriptures did not contain “new truths” apart from the Sacred Tradition of the Church. They only supported the deposit of faith given once to the Church by the Apostles.

Now, we are to imagine that those who walked and lived and spoke and were taught by Christ and protected by the Holy Spirit imparted the faith orally to the Church in one way and quite another in writing. It is as if the Church just didn’t understand what the Apostles and other close disciples of Christ wrote down concerning the nature of God, as found in the New Testament. They chose to canonize texts that contradict one of the most fundamental Christian dogmas, the Trinity.

The very idea that the Church does not understand writings written by Catholics, canonized by Catholics, for Catholics is simply silly. Yet that is exactly what is being implied by those who pretend to use our own Scriptures against us in promoting their strange, man-made ideas about the nature of God. They are saying we don’t understand our own Scriptures and that if we did we would deny the Trinity as do they. There is no lack of information out there if one is truly interested in what we believe.

Peace.

Steve

 

[Michael1978]

The very idea that the Church does not understand writings written by Catholics, canonized by Catholics, for Catholics is simply silly. Yet that is exactly what is being implied by those who pretend to use our own Scriptures against us in promoting their strange, man-made ideas about the nature of God. They are saying we don’t understand our own Scriptures and that if we did we would deny the Trinity as do they. There is no lack of information out there if one is truly interested in what we believe.

Peace.

Steve

Excellent post as well. This is true not only regarding claims about the nature of God, but other claims by non-Catholics regarding Catholic teachings, practices and beliefs.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Reflections does not exist in eternity, it is subjected to time. Thus to say that Jesus is only an image of God when He returned to the Father, does not quite make sense to me. Jesus is only the image of the Father on earth when He took our form, but in essence He is God.

It is usually hard for people to grasp God the Father, God the Son & God the Holy Spirit because they instinctively counted three Persons in the Trinity. They forgot that God exists in the Three Persons and the math do not necessarily need to be 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. It can be 1 ÷ 1 ÷ 1 = 1 or 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. To use math is also inadequate but I just proven the point it is not entirely impossible at all by human standards.

If we have created any establishments with the passages from the Scriptures I have shown you regarding God being both plural & singular, then we would have also deemed it logically possible that in the realm of eternity, outside the boundaries of time and space, (where reflection is subjected to time); God the Father is the eternal Light, God the Son cannot be anything other than eternal Light. And thus God the Son is also eternal, immutable and unchanging.

I am well-aware that the above reasoning may not be enough, but hopefully it helps you somehow to figure about the Trinity. The Holy Trinity is still what It is, a Mystery.

GuyNextDoor

Impressive post; Question? How does the Guy next door in RCIA happen to delve in such Mystical Mysteries of our Catholic faith without compromise?

Have you been received into the Mystical body of Christ in the Catholic Church yet?

What is your status a neophyte, catechumen, candidate for full communion or convert?

Your catechesis reveal to me that your on solid ground.

 

[GuyNextDoor]

Impressive post; Question? How does the Guy next door in RCIA happen to delve in such Mystical Mysteries of our Catholic faith without compromise?

Have you been received into the Mystical body of Christ in the Catholic Church yet?

What is your status a neophyte, catechumen, candidate for full communion or convert?

Your catechesis reveal to me that your on solid ground.

Thank you Gabriel. I just happened to love reading from various sources. I also enjoy watching inter-faith dialogues & debates for some time now and those time spent watching it helped me alot. I would have been a Catholic many years back but I couldn’t commit the time for a year long RCIA at that time.

What a coincidence you asked that now! I just started RCIA some weeks back, I am about to go through the Rites Of Acceptance tomorrow during the Saturday evening Mass. lol… Not sure what to expect though.

GuyNextDoor

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Thank you Gabriel. I just happened to love reading from various sources. I also enjoy watching inter-faith dialogues & debates for some time now and those time spent watching it helped me alot. I would have been a Catholic many years back but I couldn’t commit the time for a year long RCIA at that time.

What a coincidence you asked that now! I just started RCIA some weeks back, I am about to go through the Rites Of Acceptance tomorrow during the Saturday evening Mass. lol… Not sure what to expect though.

GuyNextDoor

That’s great to hear. Make sure your sponsor or God parent is present with you at the Rite of Acceptance. Listen to the beautiful prayers meant for you and it is important to participate in the responses, I recommend an open heart and a willing disposition to receive God’s graces in your upcoming Rites throughout your course especially during Lent.

It’ not a coincidence really, most RCIA programs in the US have already started in late August early September. Just a little insight for you, the RCIA program follows the three year Liturgical Church Calendar, that reflects the three year ministry of Jesus when He walked the earth. You my dear brother, will experience this three year walk with Jesus in one year or eight to nine months time, that is long enough for the New born (neophyte) to be born at the Easter Vigil to experience the real resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Try not to miss, my prayers go out to you on your journey with Christ and become present in His True presence in the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

Peace be with you

 

[Servant19]

I understand how you feel. No matter what answers any person can give, it always seem lacking. Because our understanding is so limited when it comes to the divine. Sometimes we have to just accept the fact that not all answers can be provided adequately.

Yes we are indeed as human beings, finite minded, trying to grasp the Infinite. One should never make statements, as human beings, that are not a direct quote from Jesus. All other statements, such as “Jesus is God, in essence” should be left to the “I’m speculating” basket…

It is not necessarily the teaching that is flawed but rather the mind is difficulty grasping. That why we call it a Mystery when it comes to the Holy Trinity. If science can’t give all the answers to everything that’s visible, how else can we expect to know anymore about the invisible?

Reason, my friend. If one cannot give a reasonable response to ALL the passages which Catholicism deems as holy, then one cannot assert a teaching. A teaching is flawed, when it is as a result, and concluded from some passages and promotes to Invisibilia other passages.

So, what is the meaning of “the Word was with God, the Word was God”?
What is the meaning of “the Word, the first-born of God”?

These need reasonable answers to assert the “Jesus is God” teaching.

It is extremely easy for us Catholics because we only need to have faith & to recognize what all the teachings lead to and just believe what the Scriptures teach

And would you say the yearning for God and the striving to serve others and to serve God and to worship Him with all our hearts and soul, is lacking in any way, that it requires so many Catholics here on CAF (and beyond) to call us Devil worshippers, Satanic and heretics?

… not by ourselves but with the Church who follows the teachings from Early Christianity and is infallible when it comes to doctrine. That is my comfort. Else there will be hundreds of different interpretations of the teachings if everyone decide to have their own interpretation.

Which is indeed a blessing, and I honour that.

Baha’u’llah states that with His coming, all things in heaven and earth were renewed. Nothing of the past means anything. Just as with Jesus’ coming, Paul declared it a new heaven and a new earth and the Torah was declared “death”, Baha’u’llah has done the same.

Think about it Guy, why would the Torah be superceded? The Jews had Rabbinic succession, they followed S’michah, they were taught infallibly by the Rabbinic schools, they also found comfort in it, from the very early days of Moses, nothing was changed, and now the Law is “death”!!!

According to the Law, the Messiah was NOT Jesus, so why not find comfort in that?
What made you a Christian and not a Jew?

Now that’s a very crucial question you have asked and I applaud you for that. Why did God describe Himself as singular here if Jesus is God?

Thankyou dear friend, and I again, applaud you for your recent, respectful dialogue. It is refreshing. I don’t require a pat on the back (and I am sure you don’t either) but it is always righteous to remind ourselves, every now and then that we are all striving to be in right relationship with our Creator. We are in this together

No mere man, much less a holy man or prophet can hope to claim the title “The Alpha and the Omega”. That is reserved for God alone. Not even John the Baptist or the Virgin Mother can live up to that title.

Now lets go back to where God does not always describes Himself as a singular.

“Then God said, ‘Let us make man in our image, in our likeness…" - Genesis 1:26

“And the LORD God said, ‘The man has now become like one of us.’” - Genesis 3:22

…

Indeed I find these passages fascinating, and when studying them in the past, I cannot help but be drawn to the reality that Baha’u’llah also referred to Himself in the plural:

“O people of the Bayan! We, verily, set foot within the School of God when ye lay slumbering; and We perused the Tablet while ye were fast asleep. By the one true God! We read the Tablet ere it was revealed, while ye were unaware, and We had perfect knowledge of the Book when ye were yet unborn. These words are to your measure, not to God’s. To this testifieth that which is enshrined within His knowledge, if ye be of them that comprehend; and to this the tongue of the Almighty doth bear witness, if ye be of those who understand. I swear by God, were We to lift the veil, ye would be dumbfounded. …”

and again:

Take heed that ye dispute not idly concerning the Almighty and His Cause, for lo! He hath appeared amongst you invested with a Revelation so great as to encompass all things, whether of the past or of the future. Were We to address Our theme by speaking in the language of the inmates of the Kingdom, We would say: “In truth, God created that School ere He created heaven and earth, and We entered it before the letters B and E were joined and knit together.” Such is the language of Our servants in Our Kingdom; consider what the tongue of the dwellers of Our exalted Dominion would utter, for We have taught them Our knowledge and have revealed to them whatever had lain hidden in God’s wisdom. Imagine then what the Tongue of Might and Grandeur would utter in His All-Glorious Abode!

…there are literally thousands (if not, tens of thousands) of times that Baha’u’llah refers to Himself as “WE”…

Can you share with us why you think that might be?



.

 

[GuyNextDoor]

That’s great to hear. Make sure your sponsor or God parent is present with you at the Rite of Acceptance. Listen to the beautiful prayers meant for you and it is important to participate in the responses, I recommend an open heart and a willing disposition to receive God’s graces in your upcoming Rites throughout your course especially during Lent.

…

Try not to miss, my prayers go out to you on your journey with Christ and become present in His True presence in the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

Peace be with you

Thanks for your prayers & sharing, Gabriel.

It’ not a coincidence really, most RCIA programs in the US have already started in late August early September. Just a little insight for you, the RCIA program follows the three year Liturgical Church Calendar, that reflects the three year ministry of Jesus when He walked the earth. You my dear brother, will experience this three year walk with Jesus in one year or eight to nine months time, that is long enough for the New born (neophyte) to be born at the Easter Vigil to experience the real resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Now that I didn’t know until now. I can only pray for the proper dispositions during this journey with the Church. Thank you again Gabriel.

Peace be with you too.

GuyNextDoor

 

[Servant19]

keep in mind that sevant 19 does not speak for the bahai religion. also, remember that the Bahai do not have a written creed.

also, it is important to know that no bahai has ever read and explained all of the writings of Bahaullah.

we catholics tend to see other religions through our experiences with our own Church.

there is only one true Church. the bahai religion is not a church in the same sense that the Roman Catholic Church can be called a religion.

as others had noted, the Bahia do not have well-defined beliefs. it is possible for a bahai, just as it is possible for a muslim to know and understand his or her beliefs differently from other muslims and bahais.

this is not true of the Roman Catholic Church. what the RCC teaches is well-defined and has been clearly preached. the Creeds, the apostle and Nicene, are summaries of our dogmas presented in a form that allows even the most uneducated RC to know and remember them.

well the bahai can point to the hundred(s) thousand pages allegedly written by Bahaullah. it is important to realize that none of them have ever read everything written by bahuallah, much less analyzed them all in relationships to each other. there is no scholarly and systematic approach in bahai that adequately addresses all of the writings of Bahaullah.

for this reason, it is impossible for anyone to know whether or not there exists in the writings of Bahaullah contradictory claims, for example. or, claims that can be refuted by facts, as another example.

it seems to me that engaging a bahai in a theological discussion is similar to trying to deliver a stunning blow to a hanging string.

It is true that I do not speak for the Baha’i religion.

Everything else in this post is not at all factual…not one bit of it.



.

 

[Servant19]

I understand that to be a teaching of Baha’i. However I still feel it is lacking, no offense. I tend to frown when people tell me that God is like the Sun,

Well, dear friend, the metaphor of a light source being reflected is implicated by the St. Basil quote I provided.

Augustine, uses the metaphor of the Sun:
newadvent.org/fathers/1801121.htm

Athanasius too
newadvent.org/fathers/2805.htm

one of the reasons is that the Sun is subjected to time, space & impermanence, much less its rays, signs or symbols. Even the space which holds the Sun is subjected to time. Thus it is inadequate to me when trying to explain God in a worldly sense because it opens people up to too many different views of Him, but not one view is good enough.

Dear friend, please don’t spend too much time analyzing all the intricacies of what is after all only a metaphor to explain a “relationship”.
God is not “actually” a sun, and the Word is not “actually” the first ray of light from the sun.

Let us step back and analyze the situation for what it is

When you sit quietly to meditate upon eternity, you will see that there is no sun, no moon, no time, no space but nevertheless there is a certain ineffable penetrating light which illuminates everything. That is the eternal Light. God is the eternal Light. He does not need a Sun or a Cause. He is eternal, immutable and unchanging.

Indeed, and there is nothing, not one Person greater than that eternal Light.

The sun shall no longer be your light by day, nor for brightness shall the moon give light to you by night; but the Lord will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory. - Isaiah 60:19

Reflections does not exist in eternity, it is subjected to time. Thus to say that Jesus is only an image of God when He returned to the Father, does not quite make sense to me. Jesus is only the image of the Father on earth when He took our form, but in essence He is God.

Yes, the analogy of sun, rays and mirror, places the mirror as the human aspect of Jesus. He reflects the image of the Father for humanity to behold. This is what St. Basil is saying, and it firmly places the Divine aspect of Jesus as the rays of the sun, which are not the sun itself. They share similar essential qualities, but they are not one and the same.
No-one claims the rays of the sun and the sun are the same.

Here’s the gambit my friend.

Creation is all a reflection of God…
As my dear brother Fr. Barron puts it so beautifully ( youtu.be/W_Yjue8MXAI ), His fingerprints are everywhere. He is the Creator, and a Creator is not a Creator if there is no creation.

So…creation is also eternal also.

It is usually hard for people to grasp God the Father, God the Son & God the Holy …

No dear friend, not hard for me to grasp at all.

1. The World of God in His essence
2. The World of the Kingdom/Word
3. The World of manifested creation

Its simple. God is simple…not hard to grasp…

They forgot that God exists in the Three Persons and the math do not necessarily need to be 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. It can be 1 ÷ 1 ÷ 1 = 1 or 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. To use math is also inadequate but I just proven the point it is not entirely impossible at all by human standards.

Now we are entering the realms of human imagination and unnecessary complexity.
God is simple dear friend, why complicate it?

If we have created any establishments with the passages from the Scriptures I have shown you regarding God being both plural & singular,

Yes, the post above.

Do you have any ideas why Baha’u’llah would always refer to Himself in the plural…“We”?

then we would have also deemed it logically possible that in the realm of eternity, outside the boundaries of time and space, (where reflection is subjected to time); God the Father is the eternal Light, God the Son cannot be anything other than eternal Light. And thus God the Son is also eternal, immutable and unchanging.

This does not take into account the reality of two things:

1. The rays of the are also “eternal Light” but are not the sun.
2. That a Creator is eternally a creator, and cannot be a Creator without a creation, thereby deeming creation as also eternal…

I am well-aware that the above reasoning may not be enough, but hopefully it helps you somehow to figure about the Trinity. The Holy Trinity is still what It is, a Mystery.

GuyNextDoor

Thankyou Guy, I really believe that if we were to search deeply and objectively, the theology of the Baha’i Faith is very much logical, reasonable and removes a whole lot of the mystery regarding the relationship between God, the Word and creation, and I pray you will be able to study it objectively, and treat it with the fair judgement that it deserves

God bless you

.

 

[GuyNextDoor]

What is the meaning of “the Word, the first-born of God”?

I will again address what “first-born” means in the New Testament which derived from the Greek word “prototokos” which I already did in Post #25 but perhaps it wasn’t enough. Just so you know the Gospel of John was written in Koine (common) Greek. I will quote from my post in Post #25 once more so it will be more convenient for you before attempting to explain further to you below:

When we say that the Word is the first-born of God, we know we are saying that the Word is the first-born of all creation.

Lets look at this passage in Colossians:

“And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.” - Colossians 1:15-21

The word used in Colossians “first-born” speaks of Christ’s pre-existence. The word “first-born” in Greek “prototokos” signifies priority, not first-created & surely not attributed to any birth order. I hope that clarifies the question.

When we read a text from our own view instead of the author’s style & written language, we can fall into all sorts of error, especially when it is a very old text dating thousands of years ago.

Lets have a closer look here:

πρωτότοκος (first-born; prōtótokos): **first, pre-eminent, first in time **(Mt 1:25; Lk 2:7); **pre-eminent **(Col 1:15; Rev 1:5). Specifically refers to Christ as the first to experience glorification at His resurrection (see Heb 12:23; Rev 1:5). For this (and countless other reasons) Jesus is “preeminent” – the unequivocal Sovereign over all creation (Col 1:16). **The preeminent, glorified Christ, the eternal Logos who possesses self-existent life **(Jn 5:26).

We see here all the words pertaining to the word “first-born” which John intends to tell us through his usage of the Greek language to the gentiles. We cannot use the modern day English or the Hebrew language in the Old Testament to interpret the New Testament Greek. Some words of the past just cannot be shared with the modern day languages. If Jesus is the first-created as you are trying to reason to me, the correct word in Greek will be:

hyiós (υἱός): son by birth or adoption. Emphasizing the likeness of the believer to the heavenly Father, resembling His character more and more by living in faith. For the believer, becoming a son of God begins with being reborn (adopted) by the heavenly Father – through Christ (the work of the eternal Son). A son with the right to the Father’s inheritance, as the believer lives in conformity with the Father’s purpose.

So if Jesus is the first-created, He is actually a hyiós of God and not prōtótokos which is the word used in both Colossians & John. I cannot find anything to dispute here about the choice of words Paul & John have used. They wrote what they bear witness to, Servant.

Yes we are indeed as human beings, finite minded, trying to grasp the Infinite. One should never make statements, as human beings, that are not a direct quote from Jesus. All other statements, such as “Jesus is God, in essence” should be left to the “I’m speculating” basket…

Yes indeed. But we Catholics are not speculating. We know that the doctrines of Catholicism are infallible, which are preserved since the days of the First Apostles. What you are trying to prove here is that Catholic doctrines are fallible using the “I’m speculating” basket, just because Jesus did not explain Himself using the words you wish to hear.

Reason, my friend. If one cannot give a reasonable response to ALL the passages which Catholicism deems as holy, then one cannot assert a teaching. A teaching is flawed, when it is as a result, and concluded from some passages and promotes to Invisibilia other passages.

I will be charitable here & not take issue of being accused for not reasoning, Servant. What you are proposing is that I reason according to the Baha’i faith or everything I explained is unreasonable. What I have been proposing was that I reason from the Bible and the Catholic faith and see where it leads while you reason yours. When someone is already determined that the Catholic doctrine is flawed, then everything in the Bible must be proven word for word instead of using their own discernment to understand the entire Bible from front to back.

A word for word in the wrong places will be like this:

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.” - John 15:1
Does that mean Jesus is a vegetable?

"Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life” - John 6:35
Does that mean Jesus is a loaf of bread?

Since you require word for word verification, using the same standards you set I humbly seek your perspective on this passage:

Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.” - John 20:28

 

[GuyNextDoor]

We see here all the words pertaining to the word “first-born” which John intends to tell us through his usage of the Greek language to the gentiles. We cannot use the modern day English or the Hebrew language in the Old Testament to interpret the New Testament Greek. Some words of the past just cannot be shared with the modern day languages. If Jesus is the first-created as you are trying to reason to me, the correct word in Greek will be:

hyiós (υἱός): son by birth or adoption. Emphasizing the likeness of the believer to the heavenly Father, resembling His character more and more by living in faith. For the believer, becoming a son of God begins with being reborn (adopted) by the heavenly Father – through Christ (the work of the eternal Son). A son with the right to the Father’s inheritance, as the believer lives in conformity with the Father’s purpose.

So if Jesus is the first-created, He is actually a hyiós of God and not prōtótokos which is the word used in both Colossians & John. I cannot find anything to dispute here about the choice of words Paul & John have used. They wrote what they bear witness to, Servant.

As a matter of fact after more researching, there’s an even better word in Greek Lexicon for first-created. Its called “proto-ktisma”.

 

[GuyNextDoor]

We see here all the words pertaining to the word “first-born” which John intends to tell us through his usage of the Greek language to the gentiles. We cannot use the modern day English or the Hebrew language in the Old Testament to interpret the New Testament Greek. Some words of the past just cannot be shared with the modern day languages. If Jesus is the first-created as you are trying to reason to me, the correct word in Greek will be:

hyiós (υἱός): son by birth or adoption. Emphasizing the likeness of the believer to the heavenly Father, resembling His character more and more by living in faith. For the believer, becoming a son of God begins with being reborn (adopted) by the heavenly Father – through Christ (the work of the eternal Son). A son with the right to the Father’s inheritance, as the believer lives in conformity with the Father’s purpose.

So if Jesus is the first-created, He is actually a hyiós of God and not prōtótokos which is the word used in both Colossians & John. I cannot find anything to dispute here about the choice of words Paul & John have used. They wrote what they bear witness to, Servant.

As a matter of fact after more researching, there’s an even better word in the Greek Lexicon for first-created. Its called “proto-ktisma”. Makes one wonder why he decided to use “prōtótokos” if he meant to say Jesus is the first-created.