Believing in the True Jesus - Christians vs Baha'is

[Gabriel_of_12]

Hi Gabriel,

I pretty much agree with the entirety of the post you make here, and from my understanding it aligns with Bahai theology.

What the Bahai Faith teaches however, is that a Person that “proceeds” from another Person is not God.

By what basis do you conclude otherwise?

.

Is Bahai clear in it’s teaching of “a person that “proceeds” from another person is not God”, to define this procession in space and time or is Bahai teaching of a divine procession that is eternal? Does Bahai clarify it’s distinction from what proceeds in space and time and that which eternally proceeds?

A person that proceeds from another person, is not that person, when the procession is made in space and time. Yet, from the man’s seed that fertilizes the woman’s womb, life proceeds in space and time. The two become one.

From flesh proceeds that same flesh, although the persons are distinct from one another, never the less the flesh remains in the procession of life to life after it’s own seed. Now magnify this a billion times squared, that takes faith not math to grasp’s at the procession of eternal life in Trinity = God who creates life in space and time from His presence, to proceed after it’s own seed, which God created in His image and likeness.

This procession of life revealed in space and time only images the Trinity, that life proceeds from life. Man here, God creates in His Image and likeness. When God speaks from Trinity; "Let US make man in OUR image and likeness.

The distinction here is that life itself is Created from the procession of the Trinity = God, when Life proceeds from life eternally. Just as God lives and breathes to give of His life in creation.

When every seed is to reproduce after it’s own seed. This is a divine law ordered by the Word of God which came from the procession of the Trinity. Science only gives it a name, which God ordained Adam to do.

The Trinity is One God. The procession of the Trinity is an eternal procession. The Catholic church teaches the Son eternally proceeds from the Father. What is eternal Essence Existing does not take on change the substance divine here remains eternal. Although, the presence is what proceeds and revealed in space and time, while the Essence being eternal God is veiled with God’s presence. It is the Presence of God that is revealed distinctly in Trinity from that eternal procession, that is made known to creation. When God covenants to commune with creation in His presence.

Thus the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are never divided or separated in Essence God, it is from the procession of the Trinity which reveals God’s presence distinctly in the living person’s presence of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in Essence one God never divided, separated or confused.

It is here when Jesus states; The Father and the Son are One, The Son does nothing by himself, The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father, Before Abraham was IAM, when the Jews took up stones to stone Jesus for revealing that He is God incarnate. The Father gives everything the Father has to the Son, If you have seen me, you have seen the Father, no one goes before the Father except through the Son.

Does Bahai’s prophet claim to be greater than the Son here? that no body goes to the Father in heaven except through the Bahai prophet?

I assure you, all that I have commented on this thread in regards to the Trinity and the procession does not conflict with St. Basil, Justin Martyr or the CCC, that all reveal that Jesus is God, incarnate, Emmanuel.

The Bahai, theology contradicts Catholic theology because Bahai has Jesus is not God. We cannot conclude “alignment” or agreement from our theologies here, when we both have different results believing differently.

I yield to you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Is Bahai clear in it’s teaching of “a person that “proceeds” from another person is not God”, to define this procession in space and time or is Bahai teaching of a divine procession that is eternal? Does Bahai clarify it’s distinction from what proceeds in space and time and that which eternally proceeds?

A person that proceeds from another person, is not that person, when the procession is made in space and time. Yet, from the man’s seed that fertilizes the woman’s womb, life proceeds in space and time. The two become one.

God from God, Eternal Spirit proceeds from Spirit unchanged, flesh proceeds from flesh takes on change

From flesh proceeds that same flesh, although the persons are distinct from one another, never the less the flesh remains in the procession of life to life after it’s own seed. Now magnify this a billion times squared, that takes faith not math to grasp’s at the procession of eternal life in Trinity = God who creates life in space and time from His presence, to proceed after it’s own seed, which God created in His image and likeness.

This procession of life revealed in space and time only images the Trinity, that life proceeds from life. Man here, God creates in His Image and likeness. When God speaks from Trinity; "Let US make man in OUR image and likeness.

The distinction here is that life itself is Created from the procession of the Trinity = God, when Life proceeds from life eternally. Just as God lives and breathes to give of His life in creation.

When every seed is to reproduce after it’s own seed. This is a divine law ordered by the Word of God which came from the procession of the Trinity. Science only gives it a name, which God ordained Adam to do.

The Trinity is One God. The procession of the Trinity is an eternal procession. The Catholic church teaches the Son eternally proceeds from the Father. What is eternal Essence Existing does not take on change the substance divine here remains eternal. Although, the presence is what proceeds and revealed in space and time, while the Essence being eternal God is veiled with God’s presence. It is the Presence of God that is revealed distinctly in Trinity from that eternal procession, that is made known to creation. When God covenants to commune with creation in His presence.

Thus the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are never divided or separated in Essence God, it is from the procession of the Trinity which reveals God’s presence distinctly in the living person’s presence of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in Essence one God never divided, separated or confused.

It is here when Jesus states; The Father and the Son are One, The Son does nothing by himself, The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father, Before Abraham was IAM, when the Jews took up stones to stone Jesus for revealing that He is God incarnate. The Father gives everything the Father has to the Son, If you have seen me, you have seen the Father, no one goes before the Father except through the Son.

Does Bahai’s prophet claim to be greater than the Son here? that no body goes to the Father in heaven except through the Bahai prophet?

I assure you, all that I have commented on this thread in regards to the Trinity and the procession does not conflict with St. Basil, Justin Martyr or the CCC, that all reveal that Jesus is God, incarnate, Emmanuel. .

The Bahai, theology contradicts Catholic theology because Bahai has Jesus is not God. We cannot conclude “alignment” or agreement from our theologies here, when we both have different results believing differently.

I yield to you

 

[Kliska]

Yes, I do agree that relativism plays a part, but as you say, there is more to it. While claiming all religions as a part of God’s progressing revelation they, at the same time, reject the doctrines of those very religions. It is like a hermit crab taking over the shell of another creature. What was inside no longer remains and the new inhabitant is nothing like the original.

Very well put indeed.

In short, in philosophy we would say this approach, when trying to convince or convict others, violates the law of non-contradiction. There is a similar occurrence when speaking with *some *Hindu’s as well.

 

[tonyfish58]

Dear friend in God

I have decided to not comment on CAF very often as the Religion of God is for Unity and Harmony and not for disputes and contention and negativity. I feel that most of the conversations we were having had lost that necessary Virtue.

I enjoy sharing Faith with others as long as positive is the result.

One day I hope to meet you all in the Field of Service to our Lord. I am off to destinations unknown and Pray that you all may find Clarity and Strong Faith in God. I will be in the Solomon Islands in Early November, if any of you are there please post and I will say Hi and share fellowship in God.

I will catch this Forum from time to time to see how you are all sharing the Love.

God Bless all and Regards Tony

 

[MartinJordan]

There is a website somewhere where this Bahai Dr. (not sure if he is actually what he says he is) made it a point to show that Christian “sages” have altered the reality of whom Jesus was.

I wonder if this is an actual position of Bahai belief in Jesus that they are conveying?

A link can be provided if one is interested.

MJ

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

There is a website somewhere where this Bahai Dr. (not sure if he is actually what he says he is) made it a point to show that Christian “sages” have altered the reality of whom Jesus was.

I wonder if this is an actual position of Bahai belief in Jesus that they are conveying?

A link can be provided if one is interested.

MJ

Seems to me that the bahai don’t want to say this directly for fear of being offensive. The problem for the bahai is explaining how the early Christians got it so wrong like almost immediately after the apostles. Ignatius, Melito, Iraneaus, Clement and Justin they might say set Christinaity on the wrong path. Would be interested in that article.

 

[MartinJordan]

Seems to me that the bahai don’t want to say this directly for fear of being offensive. The problem for the bahai is explaining how the early Christians got it so wrong like almost immediately after the apostles. Ignatius, Melito, Iraneaus, Clement and Justin they might say set Christinaity on the wrong path. Would be interested in that article.

I’ll send you a PM dear IgnatianPhilo. Must admit I read it in haste but I think you can revert here if you wish, after you go through it.

God bless!

MJ

 

[Servant19]

There is a website somewhere where this Bahai Dr. (not sure if he is actually what he says he is) made it a point to show that Christian “sages” have altered the reality of whom Jesus was.

I wonder if this is an actual position of Bahai belief in Jesus that they are conveying?

A link can be provided if one is interested.

MJ

Please send me the link too Martin.

There is no Bahai teaching that I am aware of that says anything of the like that the Apostles or the Saints got it all wrong.

Cheers

.

 

[Servant19]

Seems to me that the bahai don’t want to say this directly for fear of being offensive. The problem for the bahai is explaining how the early Christians got it so wrong like almost immediately after the apostles. Ignatius, Melito, Iraneaus, Clement and Justin they might say set Christinaity on the wrong path. Would be interested in that article.

Hi Ignatian, I think we went past the fear of causing offense here a long time ago. I think the very coming of Baha’u’llah offends Christians, as much as the very coming of Jesus as Messiah offended the Jews. I guess there are some things we cannot help. Verily God is far above the whims and vilifications of His servants.

We repeat again, the early Christians may well have got it right. We repeat again, but in these Last Days, we live in a new heaven and a new earth, and we have started the slate clean. Those who are resurrected are indeed amongst those who have recognized the one true God and live their lives aligning themselves with His Will.

.

 

[MartinJordan]

Please send me the link too Martin.

There is no Bahai teaching that I am aware of that says anything of the like that the Apostles or the Saints got it all wrong.

Cheers

.

You’re right actually. After reading it again…Unfortunately the article is weak because it is supported by using anti-Catholic scholar such as Karlheinz Deschner and Paul F. Knitter (both crossed swords with the Church and the latter was under criticism of even with Pope Emeritus, His Holiness Benedict XVI,when he was Cardinal).

MJ

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Servant19;12372794]Hi Ignatian, I think we went past the fear of causing offense here a long time ago. I think the very coming of Baha’u’llah offends Christians, as much as the very coming of Jesus as Messiah offended the Jews

.

The many first century Jews who followed Jesus were not offended. The leadership Jews who feared pagan Rome, saw Jesus as a false prophet, who was gaining support of all the Jews, falsely thinking Jesus was bringing an uprising against Rome, when Jesus came to establish peace. It is Jesus who took upon Himself their offense, rejection,fears, sin, so much that He gave His life for them.

The coming of false prophets, anti-Christ were foretold by Jesus and the apostles, informing us Christians how to discern them and expose them, with the Spirit of Truth God sends us.

I have to disagree with you Servant 19. Christians are not offended by any coming of Baha’u’llah. We expect these to come and go, as history records them, and as foretold by Jesus and His apostles who give us warning of such prophets and anti-Christ’s that WILL appear.

Christians look forward to our coming Messiah, when He returns. God has informed us of how Jesus returns for His bride on earth. Baha’u’llah does not meet that divine criteria. No matter how twisted the scriptures are made to reveal these foretold prophets, scripture alone or spiritual writings is not the basis of God’s Truth. It is God’s presence who exposes the false prophets and anti-Christ’s to the true followers of Jesus Christ.

I pray the discernment displayed from Christianity towards Bahai does not offend the people from Bahai, but encourage them to see Jesus in His True Light from which Jesus revealed Himself to our humanity from the eye witnesses.

There are no more new divine revelations, there is nothing new under the sun, until Jesus returns, who makes all things new in His resurrection.

We repeat again, the early Christians may well have got it right. We repeat again, but in these Last Days, we live in a new heaven and a new earth, and we have started the slate clean.

What you teach is not new. Your start is not a clean slate. When you got Jesus is not God. Is an old ancient heretical view condemned by Christians, long before Baha’u’llah appears in history.

Peace be with you

 

[Servant19]

Apologies again for my quietness dear Gabriel…I will attempt to address your points below

Is Bahai clear in it’s teaching of “a person that “proceeds” from another person is not God”, to define this procession in space and time or is Bahai teaching of a divine procession that is eternal? Does Bahai clarify it’s distinction from what proceeds in space and time and that which eternally proceeds?

Baha’u’llah teaches about Divine emanation (which is equivalent to “procession” I believe) and this is seen in a limited sense in the space/time continuum. God is simple and works within concepts adopting similar principles. Baha’u’llah teaches that concepts and principles noted in the empirically observable world of matter is repeated both in the material, limited world, and also in the spiritual, eternal world of the Kingdom. That is why it is stated in all religious texts that in this world of matter we see “manifestations” and “signs” of His existence.

A person that proceeds from another person, is not that person, when the procession is made in space and time. Yet, from the man’s seed that fertilizes the woman’s womb, life proceeds in space and time. The two become one.

From flesh proceeds that same flesh, although the persons are distinct from one another, never the less the flesh remains in the procession of life to life after it’s own seed. Now magnify this a billion times squared, that takes faith not math to grasp’s at the procession of eternal life in Trinity = God who creates life in space and time from His presence, to proceed after it’s own seed, which God created in His image and likeness.

The Source/procession principle does not change because something is eternal or not. I cannot see anywhere in the Bible where the Source/procession principle needs to be abandoned given the eternality of God and His Son. The principle is the same with all processions in existence.

Light “proceeds” from the sun. The light is not the sun
Water droplets “proceeds” from the cloud. The droplet is not the cloud.
Blood “proceeds” from the heart. The blood is not the heart.
Grace “proceeds” from the Kingdom. Grace is not the Kingdom.
The Son “proceeds” from God. The Son is not God.

I see no reason why something outside of space and time should be unnecessarily turned upside down for the purposes of Christianity at the complete contradiction of Jewish Scripture, according to Jewish official teaching (and in fact all other religions official teachings).

This procession of life revealed in space and time only images the Trinity, that life proceeds from life. Man here, God creates in His Image and likeness. When God speaks from Trinity; "Let US make man in OUR image and likeness.

Dear friend, your usage of this verse to extrapolate a Trinitarian God goes against all Jewish teachings on this verse. Is that not what you accuse the Baha’is of?

outreachjudaism.org/trinity-genesis/
jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/jesus/trinity/what-is-the-meaning-of-god-said-qlet-us-make-man-in-our-image/
chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/558595/jewish/Who-was-Gd-addressing-when-saying-Let-US-create-man.htm

.

 

[Servant19]

The distinction here is that life itself is Created from the procession of the Trinity = God, when Life proceeds from life eternally. Just as God lives and breathes to give of His life in creation.

When every seed is to reproduce after it’s own seed. This is a divine law ordered by the Word of God which came from the procession of the Trinity. Science only gives it a name, which God ordained Adam to do.

The Trinity is One God. The procession of the Trinity is an eternal procession. The Catholic church teaches the Son eternally proceeds from the Father. What is eternal Essence Existing does not take on change the substance divine here remains eternal. Although, the presence is what proceeds and revealed in space and time, while the Essence being eternal God is veiled with God’s presence. It is the Presence of God that is revealed distinctly in Trinity from that eternal procession, that is made known to creation. When God covenants to commune with creation in His presence.

Thus the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are never divided or separated in Essence God, it is from the procession of the Trinity which reveals God’s presence distinctly in the living person’s presence of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in Essence one God never divided, separated or confused.

It is here when Jesus states; The Father and the Son are One, The Son does nothing by himself, The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father, Before Abraham was IAM, when the Jews took up stones to stone Jesus for revealing that He is God incarnate. The Father gives everything the Father has to the Son, If you have seen me, you have seen the Father, no one goes before the Father except through the Son.

Does Bahai’s prophet claim to be greater than the Son here? that no body goes to the Father in heaven except through the Bahai prophet?

Yes, Baha’u’llah states:

"Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity."

I am convinced that the word “Beauty” in this verse has all-encompassing connotations. I am also convinced that were a Seeker of God to explore thoroughly the Revelation of Baha’u’llah they will see in it the “Beauty of Jesus”

That’s why one cannot reject the “Beauty of Baha’u’llah”…the fruits are very wholesome and endowed with great Spirit, simply looking at what happens in the Baha’i Houses of Worship is testament to that…

I assure you, all that I have commented on this thread in regards to the Trinity and the procession does not conflict with St. Basil, Justin Martyr or the CCC, that all reveal that Jesus is God, incarnate, Emmanuel.

Personally I am not convinced that the Source/procession principle ceases to apply simply because it is related to ‘co-eternal Persons’

I therefore would appreciate a consideration as to why the Father who is greater than the Son, is considered co-equal with the Son in procession?

The Bahai, theology contradicts Catholic theology because Bahai has Jesus is not God. We cannot conclude “alignment” or agreement from our theologies here, when we both have different results believing differently.

I think you are correct, there are contradictions between Baha’i theology and Catholic theology, but I think Catholic theology is very much immersed in the explorations of a “mystery” and these explorations create contradictions to take place which Catholic theology tries to marry with what it wants to maintain (at all costs), namely a Triune God.

I yield to you

God bless you dear Gabriel. I appreciate and cherish your charitable and righteous exploration with me. I apologize if what I post is in any way considered offensive, my intentions are not that. I am genuinely exploring, with noble intent, and I am trying to stay true to what I consider truth. I believe that truth should “feel right” and there are a few things about the Trinity, which I am expressing here, which do not feel that way, and I honour you for patiently guiding me on this path of discovery

.

 

[Servant19]

.

The many first century Jews who followed Jesus were not offended. The leadership Jews who feared pagan Rome, saw Jesus as a false prophet, who was gaining support of all the Jews, falsely thinking Jesus was bringing an uprising against Rome, when Jesus came to establish peace. It is Jesus who took upon Himself their offense, rejection,fears, sin, so much that He gave His life for them.

The coming of false prophets, anti-Christ were foretold by Jesus and the apostles, informing us Christians how to discern them and expose them, with the Spirit of Truth God sends us.

I have to disagree with you Servant 19. Christians are not offended by any coming of Baha’u’llah. We expect these to come and go, as history records them, and as foretold by Jesus and His apostles who give us warning of such prophets and anti-Christ’s that WILL appear.

Christians look forward to our coming Messiah, when He returns. God has informed us of how Jesus returns for His bride on earth. Baha’u’llah does not meet that divine criteria. No matter how twisted the scriptures are made to reveal these foretold prophets, scripture alone or spiritual writings is not the basis of God’s Truth. It is God’s presence who exposes the false prophets and anti-Christ’s to the true followers of Jesus Christ.

I pray the discernment displayed from Christianity towards Bahai does not offend the people from Bahai, but encourage them to see Jesus in His True Light from which Jesus revealed Himself to our humanity from the eye witnesses.

There are no more new divine revelations, there is nothing new under the sun, until Jesus returns, who makes all things new in His resurrection.

What you teach is not new. Your start is not a clean slate. When you got Jesus is not God. Is an old ancient heretical view condemned by Christians, long before Baha’u’llah appears in history.

Peace be with you

I am glad that there is no offence taken Gabriel

Have you considered the perspective that what you write above is equally applicable as a Jew to the Revelation of Jesus?

Concomitantly, this whole "revelation ends with “us” " must, if we are to be genuine in spirit, be revisited given the new realities presented in the world, just as it was when Jesus came and said “I am”

.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve you really are not reading what I’m posting.

I’m sorry you conclude that schools teach the same thing from kindergarten to pre-university.
Maybe you went to a different schooling system to me.

As you very well know, Servant, this conversation began with my position that the Baha’i hold contradicting positions simultaneously, claiming that each is true. Rather than actually addressing this you instead return to your condescending, elitist statements.

I will admit that it took me a little while to read between the lines. What you really meant to say is that Catholics are basically in grammar school and what appears to us as contradiction is actually not contradiction, we just haven’t developed enough to know the difference. Have I got it? IOW, Catholics still believe in fairy tales and some day, when we grow up, as have the Baha’i, we will know truth from fairy tales.

Thank you for such a thoughtful response.

 

[SteveVH]

Originally Posted by SteveVH
From what I have gleaned from the thousands of Baha’i posts is that the “sin of the world” is something that causes them no great concern. In fact, the eternal destiny of the soul does not really appear on the radar, certainly not as the primary focus.

Please show me one Bahai post that states this Steve

Thankyou

If you will read my post I never said there was one specific post, but that after reading thousands of Baha’i posts this is the conclusion I have reached. If you will point me to any of your posts that focus on sin, and being saved from sin as the primary purpose of God’s plan for humanity, I will retract my statement.

 

[SteveVH]

Certainly Baha’u’llah’s purpose is to establish a just society on earth, and to draw people nearer to God. The two purposes, social and spiritual, are part of basic Bahai doctrine.

But there is certainly nothing unique in any “prophet” drawing people nearer to God. Jesus Christ, on the other hand, is completely unique in that he draws us nearer to God by drawing us to himself, Who is God. His sacrifice made it possible for us to enter into eternal life with God. The gates of heaven were closed with the advent of the original sin. Christ opened the gates of heaven through his suffering, death and resurrection to those who would believe in him and follow his commands. No mere “prophet” could accomplish this.
Christ came to destroy sin and death that we may live with him forever. This does not seem to be the focus of Baha’u’llah

As for the gnostic idea, no, that is not part of Bahai teachings, although knowledge and wisdom are important, are they not?

Of course knowledge and wisdom are important. But they do not save us. This seems to be something missing from the Baha’i paradigm; the very need to be saved from our sins.

Baha’u’llah teaches that Christ took away the sin of the world, although his terminology is different (he was after all speaking a different language).

"We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

As a matter of curiosity (because I studied at a Catholic seminary in the hey-day of liberation theology): is the “sin of the world” understood by Catholics today as structural sin, which is different to individual sins and must also be addressed, or is “the sin of the world” understood as the sum of all the individual sins in the world?

“How are we to understand these expressions about the “sin of the world”? The passages quoted clearly indicate that here it is not a case of the “world” as a creation of God, but as a specific dimension, almost a spiritual space closed to God, in which evil arises on the basis of created freedom. This evil transferred into the “heart” of our first parents under the influence of the “ancient serpent” (cf. Gen 3 and Rev 12:9), that is, Satan, “the father of lies,” has borne evil fruits from the beginning of human history. Original sin has left in its wake that “spark or incitement of evil desire,” that is, the threefold concupiscence, which induces people to sin. In their turn the many personal sins that are committed form a kind of “environment of sin.” This creates the conditions for new personal sins and in a certain way induces and attracts individuals to sin. Therefore “the sin of the world” is not to be identified with original sin, but it is, as it were, a synthesis or summing up of the consequences of original sin in the history of each generation and so in the whole history of humanity. From this it also follows that the various human initiatives, tendencies, achievements and institutions, even in those “ensembles” which constitute cultures and civilizations, bear a certain imprint of sin. In this sense one can perhaps speak of a sin of the structures as a kind of “infection” which is spread from human hearts into the environments in which they live and into the structures which support and condition their existence.” (St. Pope John Paul, II, General Audience — November 5, 1986)

 

[SteveVH]

Bahais do not believe that Baha’u’llah’s revelation could be the last one. That would imply that God shut up shop and left us to it. Perfections are endless: we have faith that God will always be there to lead us on the next stage of the journey.

And where does the journey end, Sen? We believe that eternal life with God is the end of the journey, our final destination, and that this was accomplished through Jesus Christ. This is the very reason that we look no further for any new revelation or any new “prophet”. If we have eternal life through Jesus Christ what could we possibly hope to gain from belief in anyone subsequent to Christ? What could they possibly offer us that Christ has not already accomplished?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Servant19;12378756]
**Baha’u’llah teaches about Divine emanation **(which is equivalent to “procession” I believe) and this is seen in a limited sense in the space/time continuum.

Jesus does not emanate from heaven. Jesus revealed He came from heaven. Your emanating relates to things created (space and time) which reaches into the divine mystery not revealing but becomes a theory, that rationalizes God to things created calling them an emanating factor of God.

I am not saying that God is irrational. I am saying God is incomprehensible. Theories such as divinity emanates from God to become something other than God, that is co-equal, co-existing with God’s Essence is unreasonable to God, when God is not created.

Thus your Jesus is not God, and Bahai’s deity is not God just based on your scientific reason that reaches to a theory of an emanating deity. God has never revealed His divinity of Essence co-exists, co-eternal with another deity or any other emanating factor that can co-exist with God’s Essence. For one reason reveals, your emanating theory falls apart here, because God never revealed such a thing.

God created spirits (Angels). God is Spirit. Your emanating theory places Angels on a par with God. This is just another example that disproves God emanates as described by you and your sources.

This is one of many scriptures that describes Jesus divine nature; Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God…in Him ALL things were created, in heaven and earth, visible and invisible…For in Him ALL the FULLNESS OF GOD was pleased TO DWELL.

God is simple and works within concepts adopting similar principles. **Baha’u’llah teaches **that concepts and principles noted in the empirically observable world of matter is repeated both in the material, limited world, and also in the spiritual, eternal world of the Kingdom.

Really? **Servant 19 if your above statement is true, then you have angels giving birth to angels. **God created those things to reproduce of it’s own seed in the material world. Your simplicity is a contradiction, because now you have the spiritual world duplicating the world of matter and repeats it?

That is why it is stated in all religious texts that in this world of matter we see “manifestations” and “signs” of His existence.

I know of no old testament or new testament scripture that relates creation being a manifestation of God’s Existence. The scriptures reveal creation exist, because God’s Essence Existing is “the work” = (St. Thomas Aquinas), that allows creation to exist.

The reason Jesus is the invisible image of God, because Jesus is the Word of God incarnate, fully human that veils God’s Essence in Jesus presence fully divine. Jesus makes peace with those things visible with those things invisible, when both came into existence in Him and from Him.

The Source/procession principle does not change because something is eternal or not. I cannot see anywhere in the Bible where the Source/procession principle needs to be abandoned given the eternality of God and His Son. The principle is the same with all processions in existence.

You have the divine that emanates itself into something other that reveals itself in space and time. This relates to creation being created by God, that does not and cannot co-exist with God’s Essence.

Jesus on the other hand is not an attribute of God’s Essence or is not created from God. Remember scripture reveals , for in Jesus, “ALL” things visible and invisible were created" Jesus does not emanate from God as if he never existed before. Before creation, the Word was God, after creation in the fullness of time that Word became flesh, fully human, fully divine.

Light “proceeds” from the sun. The light is not the sun

No light proceeds from light. The light is in the Sun and the Sun is in the light. The Sun does not proceed, but the light proceeds from Sun to give Sun light to darkness.

The Son “proceeds” from God. The Son is not God.

When God speaks His Word, God the Father eternally begets a Son, and the Word is God that proceeds in God’s presence incarnate revealed in the only begotten Son of God Jesus Christ, “and without Him (Word) was not anything made that was made” Jn. 1:3

I see no reason why something outside of space and time should be unnecessarily turned upside down for the purposes of Christianity at the complete contradiction of Jewish Scripture, according to Jewish official teaching (and in fact all other religions official teachings).

Are you sure you want to hold to that statement? No Jewish or Christian official teaching ever tries to define God’s Essence as existing in space and time. Because no Jewish or Christian official teaching never attempts to define God’s Essence that Exists outside of space and time.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Servant19;12378757]
I am convinced that the word “Beauty” in this verse has all-encompassing connotations. I am also convinced that were a Seeker of God to explore thoroughly the Revelation of Baha’u’llah they will see in it the “Beauty of Jesus”

Jesus teaches simply; “it is the Spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail”. The beauty you speak of returns to dust, the beauty Christians contemplate and wait for His return is eternal living.

That’s why one cannot reject the “Beauty of Baha’u’llah”…the fruits are very wholesome and endowed with great Spirit, simply looking at what happens in the Baha’i Houses of Worship is testament to that…

I don’t pretend to take away the fruits of Beauty, that may endow man’s spirit of enlightenment.

I speak of a divine beauty that He (Jesus) Himself is the Light, from which all of man’s spirit of enlightenment of true beauty takes it’s rest in Jesus Christ.

Personally I am not convinced that the Source/procession principle ceases to apply simply because it is related to ‘co-eternal Persons’

Then you don’t believe in Divine revelation. Because Procession only speaks of God’s divine revelation comes to creation in God’s presence. Trinity is that divine economy of procession from Which God reveals His True presence to us.

Something that emanates from God that is not God, never has God’s presence. If this is your Bahai’s view, then your God does not truly reveal Himself to Bahai’s prophet, because God’s emanation is not God. Which I agree with you here.

I therefore would appreciate a consideration as to why the Father who is greater than the Son, is considered co-equal with the Son in procession?

The Father is greater than the Son is presence. Because the Father does not proceed, and eternally begets the Son, the Son proceeds from the Father. Thus the Father is greater than the Son in revealed procession.

When the Father eternally begets a Son. The Father and the Son in respective of each ones personal presence, remain eternal existing consubstantial in Essence = substance Existing co-equal in each person divine presence.

When ever God the Father sends His Word, that Word is God in presence distinct from the Father’s presence because the Son is sent or proceeded from the Father eternally, it is from this eternal procession reveals that; there was never a time when the Son did not exist without the Father, both are co-equal in what is consubstantial Essence.

Procession is revelation of God’s presence distinctly Father and Son. Essence veiled in presence of the Father distinct from the Son’s presence, because the Son’s presence (Word) is not the Father’s presence (Voice), eternal presence proceeding from the Father who is the Monarch of the eternal procession in presence, co-equal in Essence divine with the Son’s presence that proceeds in Word from, in, and with the Voice of the Father.

Procession reveals the presence of each person of the Trinity.

Eternal procession reveals the Trinity of persons co-equal in consubstantiality, never divided never separated or confused Essence One God eternal Essence Existing.

I think you are correct, there are contradictions between Baha’i theology and Catholic theology, but I think Catholic theology is very much immersed in the explorations of a “mystery” and these explorations create contradictions to take place which Catholic theology tries to marry with what it wants to maintain (at all costs), namely a Triune God.

Catholicism never attempts to define a mystery (Trinity) of God. Catholic theology only reaches by grasping at what God revealed in Trinity. Faith takes precedence over theology. Theology is never doctrine, God’s revelation = Trinity is made doctrine. God’s revelation that is bound and loosed on earth, Jesus binds and loose in heaven, that separates the sheep from the goats.

The Catholic Church does not contradict the Voice (Father) of God, the Word (Jesus) of God and the Breath (Holy Spirit) of God, when all three are distinct in revelation One God and no other.

Tell me Servant 19; When you say “I love you” to your loved ones? did not your love proceed from your voice, with your own words “I love you”, while your breath proceeded from both your voice and word into the hearing of your loved one, when all three reached into your love ones heart, did not your own spirit proceed in all of these distinctly from your voice, word and breath?

Trinity reveals God who is Love, Love proceeds from Love in Love to love us. God reveals His Love in the presence of the Father (voice) the Son (Word) and the Holy Spirit (breath).

Love does not contradict Servant 19. Catholic theology is based on God’s revelation of Love… Catholic doctrine = Trinity reveals divine Love in Presence, which is living eternally, what the Catholic Church calls Mystery, because divine Love is not exhausted in a definition, Love = God’s Essence remains a Mystery. Faith proceeds in the mystery of Love.

I am genuinely exploring, with noble intent, and I am trying to stay true to what I consider truth. I believe that truth should “feel right” and there are a few things about the Trinity, which I am expressing here, which do not feel that way, and I honour you for patiently guiding me on this path of discovery

As a Catholic Truth is not based on a feeling or an emotion. Truth is a person who reveals His presence to us. Jesus is God’s presence manifested fully human, fully divine to our presence.