Believing in the True Jesus - Christians vs Baha'is

[Servant19]

All of creation begins at a moment in time. There was a time when it did not exist, and then a time when it did exist. Only God is eternal; the prime Mover of all things; the Uncaused Cause. Simple observation of the world around us reveals that all things that exist were caused to exist by something else. Nothing that exists, exists of its own power except for God. Therefore, creation cannot, by its very definition, be eternal. Your “simple deduction and rational philosophy” are flawed.

The title “Creator” indicates what God does, not who he is. There is no reason that God “must” create anything. He is whole and entire in and of Himself. His essence is Love; the Love between the Father and the Son which is the Holy Spirit. We are not Baptized in the name of the Creator, the Redeemer and the Sanctifier. We are Baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. The Father is eternally the Father, the Son is eternally the Son and the Holy Spirit, eternally the Holy Spirit. No beginning and no end.

Dear Steve, this perspective is a great one if it was assumed that God’s creation is limited to time and space.

You and I both know that the Kingdom of heaven is OUTSIDE of time and space. It is clear therefore that the argument “all of creation begins at a moment in time” discounts altogether that most important part of creation which is commonly known as the Kingdom of heaven, or “the Kingdom” for short.



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[SteveVH]

Dear Steve, this perspective is a great one if it was assumed that God’s creation is limited to time and space.

You and I both know that the Kingdom of heaven is OUTSIDE of time and space. It is clear therefore that the argument “all of creation begins at a moment in time” discounts altogether that most important part of creation which is commonly known as the Kingdom of heaven, or “the Kingdom” for short.

Yes, I am quite aware that eternity is not limited to time and space. But we must use human language in an attempt to convey the mystery of God and creation. Let’s just say that anything created did not exist, and then it did. Something created requires a Creator which is prior to its existence. Only the Creator; God, the Prime Mover of all things, has no beginning. The Son, the Second Person of the Trinity, has no beginning as he is wholly God within himself. Jesus was not created. He is truly one God, with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

This is where the difference lies when you speak of an emanation as being a ray of light from the sun. While seemingly similar with the Catholic doctrine of the eternal “procession” of the Son and the Holy Spirit from the Father, the ray of light is less than the source from whence it came. When speaking of the Trinity, the Catholic belief is that the Father is greater only in his relation as Father to the Son. In all other ways, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal in power, glory and majesty.

Something to keep in mind here. The Trinity is an unfathomable mystery. We attempt to explain, to understand, but the truth is that it is a mystery infinitely beyond our human capability to grasp. At the same time it is a revealed truth. That means that it is a dogma; a foundational truth revealed by God.

Really, any language that we attempt to use to explain the nature of God can only diminish him. All attempts to use created things (sun, rays) fail because God is infinitely above his creation in every way; absolute simplicity beyond our understanding.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

• Isaiah 55:8-9

Peace.

Steve

 

[tonyfish58]

Something to keep in mind here. The Trinity is an unfathomable mystery. We attempt to explain, to understand, but the truth is that it is a mystery infinitely beyond our human capability to grasp. At the same time it is a revealed truth. That means that it is a dogma; a foundational truth revealed by God.

Really, any language that we attempt to use to explain the nature of God can only diminish him. All attempts to use created things (sun, rays) fail because God is infinitely above his creation in every way; absolute simplicity beyond our understanding.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

• Isaiah 55:8-9 Peace.Steve

Steve - This should be kept in mind - John 16:13 “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come”.

“All the Truth” - The two passages you quoted above applicable to understanding “All the Truth”.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

Yes, I am quite aware that eternity is not limited to time and space. But we must use human language in an attempt to convey the mystery of God and creation. Let’s just say that anything created did not exist, and then it did. Something created requires a Creator which is prior to its existence. Only the Creator; God, the Prime Mover of all things, has no beginning. The Son, the Second Person of the Trinity, has no beginning as he is wholly God within himself. Jesus was not created. He is truly one God, with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

This is where the difference lies when you speak of an emanation as being a ray of light from the sun. While seemingly similar with the Catholic doctrine of the eternal “procession” of the Son and the Holy Spirit from the Father, the ray of light is less than the source from whence it came. When speaking of the Trinity, the Catholic belief is that the Father is greater only in his relation as Father to the Son. In all other ways, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal in power, glory and majesty.

Something to keep in mind here. The Trinity is an unfathomable mystery. We attempt to explain, to understand, but the truth is that it is a mystery infinitely beyond our human capability to grasp. At the same time it is a revealed truth. That means that it is a dogma; a foundational truth revealed by God.

Really, any language that we attempt to use to explain the nature of God can only diminish him. All attempts to use created things (sun, rays) fail because God is infinitely above his creation in every way; absolute simplicity beyond our understanding.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

• Isaiah 55:8-9

Peace.

Steve

Hi Steve, our beloved friend Tony made a valid point worthy of consideration in regards to the last part of your post

In regards to the Kingdom, we have therefore established that it is eternal and outside of time and space. So God can create eternal Kingdoms, but they are still created. How this happens is something that we can spend some reflection time on.

The fact that this happens convincingly proves that “createdness” and “eternality” can exist together. If God can do that with an entire Kingdom, why can He not make Jesus the Lord of that Kingdom?

He would still be Lord, He would still be eternal, He would still be EVERYTHING written about Him in the Bible and in the written Traditions of the Apostles and Saints, yet as the Kingdom is distinct from God, so is Jesus.

Why would that diminish the station of Jesus?
Why would one continuously resist such a proposition given no evidence exists anywhere that Jesus was Uncreated?

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[SteveVH]

Steve - This should be kept in mind - John 16:13 “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come”.

“All the Truth” - The two passages you quoted above applicable to understanding “All the Truth”.

God Bless and Regards Tony

Yes, I agree completely. This is very Catholic. The Spirit of Truth which came down upon the Apostles at Pentecost continues to guide the Church into “all the truth”. It is the Spirit of the Father and the Son.

 

[tonyfish58]

Yes, I agree completely. This is very Catholic. The Spirit of Truth which came down upon the Apostles at Pentecost continues to guide the Church into “all the truth”. It is the Spirit of the Father and the Son.

Dear SteveVH - Dear friend in God - It is very unfortunate that the world still appears not to be ready for the full explanation of “The Spirit of the Father and the Son” - Oh that mankind could embrace the magnitude, in fact the Infinite magnitude of the meaning enshrined within this. Frankly it is gob-smacking!

May God remove our veils and shatter all vain imaginings!

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

Hi Steve, our beloved friend Tony made a valid point worthy of consideration in regards to the last part of your post

Yes, I agree with what Tony wrote. The Holy Spirit has come and remains with his Church, leading it into all truth.

In regards to the Kingdom, we have therefore established that it is eternal and outside of time and space. So God can create eternal Kingdoms, but they are still created. How this happens is something that we can spend some reflection time on.

We have established nothing regarding God’s Kingdom. We have not even discussed God’s Kingdom. His Kingdom is in eternity but it had a beginning as well. We who follow Christ will also live in eternity, but we are not eternal; we had a beginning, just as do all created things.

The fact that this happens convincingly proves that “createdness” and “eternality” can exist together. If God can do that with an entire Kingdom, why can He not make Jesus the Lord of that Kingdom?

Well I simply do not agree at all that what you say is a “fact”. The Father did not “make” Jesus. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega spoken of in both Isaiah and Revelation. He was not created, but is, in fact, the Creator.

Why would that diminish the station of Jesus?

It would make Him less that what he is; God Almighty, the Creator of the Universe.

Why would one continuously resist such a proposition given no evidence exists anywhere that Jesus was Uncreated?

I have already given you evidence and I can give more. My question is why do you continuously try to convince Catholics that Jesus is not their God? Especially in light of all the evidence contained in Scripture and Tradition that he is?

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[Servant19]

Yes, I agree with what Tony wrote. The Holy Spirit has come and remains with his Church, leading it into all truth.

We have established nothing regarding God’s Kingdom. We have not even discussed God’s Kingdom. His Kingdom is in eternity but it had a beginning as well. We who follow Christ will also live in eternity, but we are not eternal; we had a beginning, just as do all created things.

Well I simply do not agree at all that what you say is a “fact”. The Father did not “make” Jesus. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega spoken of in both Isaiah and Revelation. He was not created, but is, in fact, the Creator.

It would make Him less that what he is; God Almighty, the Creator of the Universe.

I have already given you evidence and I can give more. My question is why do you continuously try to convince Catholics that Jesus is not their God? Especially in light of all the evidence contained in Scripture and Tradition that he is?

.

Hi Steve,

I think you are equated “uncreated” with “eternal” or “outside of time and space”

Do you think eternal (or outside of space and time) means uncreated?

If so, can you offer a basis for equating the two please?

.

 

[SteveVH]

Hi Steve,

I think you are equated “uncreated” with “eternal” or “outside of time and space”

Do you think eternal (or outside of space and time) means uncreated?

If so, can you offer a basis for equating the two please?

.

There is a difference between an “eternal” Being, and one who might someday live in “eternity”.

An eternal Being has never had a beginning, nor will it have an end. An eternal Being has always existed of its own power and is dependent upon nothing else for its existence. Therefore, an eternal being is, by definition, uncreated.

There is only one eternal Being, who we call God, who has created all else that exists. He has always existed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That is why we say that Jesus Christ is “eternally” the Son of God. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one Being in three divine Persons. That is the mystery of the Trinity.

Now, to live “in eternity” is something different. When we reach our final destiny we will live outside of time and space, i.e. “in eternity”. But we are not “eternal beings” because we are created and have not always existed. The same could be said for the angels. They too are creatures (that which is created), albeit heavenly creatures. Though they live “in eternity” (outside of space and time) they were created. They are not “eternal beings”.

Jesus Christ is not a “creature”. He was not “created”. He has always existed with the Father and the Holy Spirit and there has never been a moment when He has not existed.

Hope this helps you understand.

Steve

 

[SteveVH]

Dear SteveVH - Dear friend in God - It is very unfortunate that the world still appears not to be ready for the full explanation of “The Spirit of the Father and the Son” - Oh that mankind could embrace the magnitude, in fact the Infinite magnitude of the meaning enshrined within this. Frankly it is gob-smacking!

May God remove our veils and shatter all vain imaginings!

God Bless and Regards Tony

I couldn’t agree more. Which is why I find it amazing that there are some who refuse to listen or even consider the dogmas and doctrines of the very Church that Jesus founded, which received the faith of those who lived and walked and were taught by Jesus himself, the Apostles. Gob-smacking, indeed.

Peace.

Steve

 

[Servant19]

There is a difference between an “eternal” Being, and one who might someday live in “eternity”.

An eternal Being has never had a beginning, nor will it have an end. An eternal Being has always existed of its own power and is dependent upon nothing else for its existence. Therefore, an eternal being is, by definition, uncreated.

There is only one eternal Being, who we call God, who has created all else that exists. He has always existed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That is why we say that Jesus Christ is “eternally” the Son of God. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one Being in three divine Persons. That is the mystery of the Trinity.

Now, to live “in eternity” is something different. When we reach our final destiny we will live outside of time and space, i.e. “in eternity”. But we are not “eternal beings” because we are created and have not always existed. The same could be said for the angels. They too are creatures (that which is created), albeit heavenly creatures. Though they live “in eternity” (outside of space and time) they were created. They are not “eternal beings”.

Jesus Christ is not a “creature”. He was not “created”. He has always existed with the Father and the Holy Spirit and there has never been a moment when He has not existed.

Hope this helps you understand.

Steve

I am trying to understand

1. How is three uncreated, eternal Entities, not polytheism?
2. I understand that being eternal is not equivalent to living in eternity, but my question is does the concept of “living in eternity” exist, and if so, was it created? I think we have alignment in our religions in that this is deemed the Kingdom. The Kingdom exists, an eternal world, was it created?

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[SteveVH]

I am trying to understand

1. How is three uncreated, eternal Entities, not polytheism?

Because the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE BEING. The Persons of the Trinity are distinct, but not separate. There is really no analogy that we can draw from the created world to explain the uncreated God. They all fall short. As I have stated, this is a mystery which cannot be fully grasped by human knowledge. Nor can we use human knowledge to arrive at the doctrine of the Trinity. It is a revealed truth. Because it has been revealed to us we are required to believe it even if our understanding is lacking.

You are trying to understand this based upon human knowledge. You are trying to extract this doctrine purely from scripture which is not explicit on many facets of the Christian faith. As I have told you before, the Christian Scriptures are not, and have never claimed to be a complete compendium of the Christian faith. While the doctrine is certainly supported in Scripture, it was held long before we even had the Scriptures. It was revealed to us by Jesus himself.

1. I understand that being eternal is not equivalent to living in eternity, but my question is does the concept of “living in eternity” exist, and if so, was it created?

Was what created? The concept?

I think we have alignment in our religions in that this is deemed the Kingdom. The Kingdom exists, an eternal world, was it created?

Still confused by your question. Nevertheless, everything that exists other than God is created.

 

[eddie_too]

it seems as though there is a lot of spinning of wheels on this thread. this may be a result of a lack of focus.

for the non-Christians who read and write here, I suggest that fruitful discussion must first address apostolic succession.

apostolic succession is the foundation of the Christian faith.

it should be obvious that the Bible is not the foundation of the Christian faith. for those to whom that is not obvious, I point to the fact that the Bible does not interpret itself. without sound interpretation, the Bible is mostly a source of confusion and division.

how then can we be confident that we are interpreting the Bible as intended by those who wrote and promulgated it? we can only be confident through the existence of apostolic succession. we need to realize that Jesus spent three years, 24-7, teaching the Twelve. there is no possible way that everything He taught the Twelve is contained in the Bible. Jesus was aware of the limitations of the written word. He knew writing lent itself to confusion and division.

if apostolic succession does not exist, then no one on earth knows the fullness of what Jesus taught and did. without apostolic succession, mankind is left to its own devices, the same state that it was in before God became Incarnate.

if after adequate discussion apostolic succession remains a stumbling block for the non-RCs here, I believe it would then be time to accept that this discussion in nothing more than a venting session.

 

[Servant19]

Because the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE BEING. The Persons of the Trinity are distinct, but not separate.

They don’t seem to be one being in these passages:

“But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things” - 1 Cor 8:6

“Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.” - Ephesians 1:3

“Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,” - 2Cor 1:3

How can God the Son have a God?
God AND Father of Jesus…

There is really no analogy that we can draw from the created world to explain the uncreated God. They all fall short. As I have stated, this is a mystery which cannot be fully grasped by human knowledge. Nor can we use human knowledge to arrive at the doctrine of the Trinity. It is a revealed truth. Because it has been revealed to us we are required to believe it even if our understanding is lacking.

Not revealed to us by Paul it seems. Paul calls Jesus Lord, which is all well and good, but always asserts that He has a God. Jesus had a God. This means He cannot be God…

You are trying to understand this based upon human knowledge. You are trying to extract this doctrine purely from scripture which is not explicit on many facets of the Christian faith. As I have told you before, the Christian Scriptures are not, and have never claimed to be a complete compendium of the Christian faith. While the doctrine is certainly supported in Scripture, it was held long before we even had the Scriptures. It was revealed to us by Jesus himself.

I do not see any evidence given by Jesus that He was Uncreated. You can point to Sacred Tradition, but Tradition would have been asserted in the Gospels.

Its really not hard to say: “Jesus was Uncreated. The one and only God” and leave it at that. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, Peter, Paul, none of them ever stated anything that you are asserting, or that you claim is being asserted by Tradition. There was hints at what you are saying, but there were a whole lot of hints asserting the exact opposite to what you are saying.

If Tradition is that critical, then the Scriptures would make it as clear as you claim the Tradition makes it.

Still confused by your question. Nevertheless, everything that exists other than God is created.

That’s my point here Steve. Is the Kingdom an eternal reality, existing before the creation of the physical universe, and existing after the universe has been destroyed? Surely it is so…

But the Kingdom was created. Or is the Kingdom an Uncreated reality?

.

 

[Techno2000]

The Trinity…But:banghead:The Trinity…But:banghead:The Trinity…But:banghead:The Trinity…But:banghead:The Trinity…But:banghead:The Trinity…But:banghead:The Trinity…But:banghead:The Trinity…But:banghead:

 

[SteveVH]

They don’t seem to be one being in these passages:

“But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things” - 1 Cor 8:6

“Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.” - Ephesians 1:3

“Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,” - 2Cor 1:3

How can God the Son have a God?
God AND Father of Jesus…

2 Peter 1:1 “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”

John 5:17,18 “Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.”

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Shall I go on? There is much, much more. This is what happens when you start cherry picking your verses and not considering all of Scripture. It is also what happens when one uses their own understanding in interpreting the Gospel without regard to the Church to which it was first delivered; without regard to the Church in which Christ promised to remain and to which he promised the Holy Spirit to lead it into all truth.

The Jews of Jesus time, who spoke the same language and lived in the same time and culture, certainly understood Jesus to be claiming that he was God. That is why he was crucified for blasphemy. 2000 years later you come along, without knowledge of the original language, culture and time, and claim to understand our Scriptures better than the Church from whence they came.

Not revealed to us by Paul it seems. Paul calls Jesus Lord, which is all well and good, but always asserts that He has a God. Jesus had a God. This means He cannot be God…

Well, Paul also wrote this:

"6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature* of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!"** (Philippians 2:6-10

Once again, you are only seeing what you wish to see and are ignoring the rest.
I do not see any evidence given by Jesus that He was Uncreated. You can point to Sacred Tradition, but Tradition would have been asserted in the Gospels.

Its really not hard to say: "Jesus was Uncreated. The one and only God"

and leave it at that. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, Peter, Paul, none of them ever stated anything that you are asserting, or that you claim is being asserted by Tradition. There was hints at what you are saying, but there were a whole lot of hints asserting the exact opposite to what you are saying.

So because the Bible does not use the exact wording you prefer you assume the meaning is absent. By this logic, Jesus never tells us "I will come again in the form of “Baha’u’llah”. Therefore this proves your faith to be in error, right?

If Tradition is that critical, then the Scriptures would make it as clear as you claim the Tradition makes it.

Why? When the Scriptures were canonized the Church already possessed the revealed truth of the Trinity. It was imbedded in the Christian faith and was therefore clear to all Christians. The belief that Jesus is God was and is fundamental to the Christian faith. They did not depend upon the sacred texts to extract this information. That was not the reason the sacred texts were canonized. It was the Church that taught, not a book. The purpose of the sacred texts was that they were to be read in our liturgies. It was never intended as a compendium of our faith. To assume that our doctrines should be laid out perfectly in the New Testament is a false assumption. That was never the intention.

That’s my point here Steve. Is the Kingdom an eternal reality, existing before the creation of the physical universe, and existing after the universe has been destroyed? Surely it is so…

But the Kingdom was created. Or is the Kingdom an Uncreated reality?

.

Well, the angels were created before the physical universe. They are still creatures and not divine or “eternal” beings without beginning. There is no Kingdom without subjects. That would just make God King of himself. Before one has a kingdom one must have a King, therefore God preceded his Kingdom. What is more is that a “kingdom” is not a “being”. So no, I do not agree with your premise.*

 

[Servant19]

2 Peter 1:1 “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”

John 5:17,18 “Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.”

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Shall I go on? There is much, much more. This is what happens when you start cherry picking your verses and not considering all of Scripture.

And why is it that you do not accuse yourself of cherry picking verses Steve?

I include the verses I include because they flatly contradict the notion that Jesus is God.

I simply cannot dialogue if my cherry picking is finger pointed by a cherry picker

Can you offer an explanation as to why God the Son has a God?

.

 

[Servant19]

.

Why? When the Scriptures were canonized the Church already possessed the revealed truth of the Trinity. It was imbedded in the Christian faith and was therefore clear to all Christians. The belief that Jesus is God was and is fundamental to the Christian faith. They did not depend upon the sacred texts to extract this information. That was not the reason the sacred texts were canonized. It was the Church that taught, not a book. The purpose of the sacred texts was that they were to be read in our liturgies. It was never intended as a compendium of our faith. To assume that our doctrines should be laid out perfectly in the New Testament is a false assumption. That was never the intention.

The point I am trying to make is that if the Church held the Truth from Day 1, then that Truth would appear in the earliest Letters of Paul, James and Peter and Mark’s Gospel. The definitive statement that Jesus is God appeared much much later, and the Trinitarian doctrine formalised even later than that.

The Trinity wasn’t even considered in the early Pauline communities, nor in the Mother Assembly.

.

 

[Servant19]

Before one has a kingdom one must have a King,

BINGO!!

And the Word, the Eternal Logos, the Alpha and the Omega (whatever you term it) is the King and Lord of that Kingdom. Before Abraham was, It IS!

As stated in Proverbs 8, where this is termed “Wisdom”, it was created, just as the Kingdom was created, but they all existed before the letters B and E were put together in the physical and spiritual worlds.

This fits with ALL the quotes you cherry picked but also fits with ALL the quotes I cherry picked…except I prefer to pick strawberries or mulberries

.

 

[SteveVH]

And why is it that you do not accuse yourself of cherry picking verses Steve?

I only cited those verses to make the point. If you want to start slinging verses around there are plenty to refute your position. They must all be taken into consideration, and they must be read through lens of the Church that produced them, in light of the faith received from the Apostles (Sacred Tradition). There was much that did not have to be stated. It had already been received. That Christ is God is fundamental. That is why his sacrifice accomplished our salvation; it is the only pure sacrifice that could be offered to the Father. God became man and dwelt among us. He is called Emmanuel; “God with us”.

I would really like your answer to this question. Do you really believe that the Church Christ founded just missed the fact that Jesus was not really God if the verses you point out are so simply understood? Do you think people such as Augustine and Aquinas were too dense to pick up on such a “clear message”?

I include the verses I include because they flatly contradict the notion that Jesus is God.

See above.

I simply cannot dialogue if my cherry picking is finger pointed by a cherry picker.

Again, my only purpose was to show you that there are other verses which flatly contradict your premise, therefore we must consider all of Scripture, not just certain verses. The point is that none of us should cherry pick verses and none of us should separate the Scriptures from the faith the Church received from the Apostles. My faith comes from the Church, not the Bible.

Can you offer an explanation as to why God the Son has a God?

It is called the mystery of the Trinity. Christ is God incarnate (made flesh). He is a different divine Person from the Father. As a man, Jesus’ Person was dependent on the Father. Therefore, God the Father was the God of Jesus. The Father is the God of the Son, but it doesn’t mean that he is inferior, only that he had a different role.