Believing in the True Jesus - Christians vs Baha'is

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i fail to see from anything I have read by the bahai who post here or at online bahai sites what it is that Bahaullah added to the revelations of Jesus except for Bahaullah’s claim to be equal to Jesus.

I am open to correction on this but if Bahaullah added nothing but his own self-aggrandizement to the Gospel of Jesus, I have no idea why anyone would believe this claim and I have no idea why I should find this claim to be of importance to me.

I am waiting for someone, anyone, to write in these forums what it is that Bahaullah gave mankind that mankind cannot do without.

Jesus gave mankind hope and the promise of eternal life through His Incarnation.

what did Bahaullah add to that.

I read what tony posted and the best I could make out of it is that mankind should be grateful that Bahaullah came because Bahaullah supersedes Jesus. why Bahaullah and anyone else believes Bahaullah supersedes Jesus and why it is important for human beings to believe Bahaullah supersedes Jesus is a complete mystery to me.

surely, there must be some reason to believe Bahaullah is equal to Jesus. the real mystery to me is why can no one articulate that reason.
 
also, the new testament says Bahaullah should bow to Jesus. why would someone’s equal bow to them.
 
Open the doors of your hearts. He Who is the Spirit verily standeth before them. Wherefore keep ye afar from Him Who hath purposed to draw you nigh unto a Resplendent Spot? Say: We, in truth, have opened unto you the gates of the Kingdom. Will ye bar the doors of your houses in My face? This indeed is naught but a grievous error. He, verily, hath again come down from heaven, even as He came down from it the first time. Beware lest ye dispute that which He proclaimeth, even as the people before you disputed His utterances. Thus instructeth you the True One, could ye but perceive it.

I think the above was written by Bahaullah. if I am mistaken, I welcome correction.

if I am right, then this seems to say that Bahaullah opened the gates of the kingdom of heaven. this begs the question of why Bahaullah thought the gates of the kingdom were closed. it also begs the question of how did Bahaullah opened the gates of heaven. and, it begs the question of **why does it matter to human beings **that Bahaullah opened the gates of heaven.
 
for someone who has the hope of eternal life (perfect union with mankind’s Creator), why does it matter what Bahaullah taught?

if a person completely rejects Bahaullah, so what? they still have the hope of eternal life through the Lord Jesus Christ.

what exactly more should be important to a human being?

I cannot imagine needing anything more than eternal life.
 
It seems to me the only thing they believe their prophet contributed to the divine legacy is a correct understanding of government and how the world should be run. Also I suppose their prophet taught and refuted the corruption (and there is no better word for it) that has existed in Christianity since I would say the time of the apostles.
 
eddie_too said:
Bahaullah supersedes Jesus is a complete mystery to me.

surely, there must be some reason to believe Bahaullah is equal to Jesus. the real mystery to me is why can no one articulate that reason.
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Eddie too - The first statement I used to quote you above, is the reason you can not understand the 2nd point posted above. You have also made other statements that are between you and God.

Dear Eddie too, no man on this Earth can 'articulate that reason" to you.

It is you and your Heart that make the choice, in full knowledge that God Doeth as He Willeth and Guides him who He so chooses.

It is up to us to Pray with all out heart and soul to ask forgiveness and then be thankful of all knowledge that God Gave us. It is not to us to pride ourselves on what we think we know.

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
tonyfish58 said:
Eddie too - The first statement I used to quote you above, is the reason you can not understand the 2nd point posted above. You have also made other statements that are between you and God.

Dear Eddie too, no man on this Earth can 'articulate that reason" to you.

It is you and your Heart that make the choice, in full knowledge that God Doeth as He Willeth and Guides him who He so chooses.

It is up to us to Pray with all out heart and soul to ask forgiveness and then be thankful of all knowledge that God Gave us. It is not to us to pride ourselves on what we think we know.

God Bless and Regards Tony
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Is this an argument or simply a statement of what is? Is it good that we believe that your prophet is a false prophet? Or is it neutral?
 
tonyfish58 said:
TypesAndShadows - This needs to be read - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-3.html

This is an extract

**"…They read the Evangel and yet refuse to acknowledge the All-Glorious Lord, notwithstanding that He hath come through the potency of His exalted, His mighty and gracious dominion. We, verily, have come for your sakes, and have borne the misfortunes of the world for your salvation. Flee ye the One Who hath sacrificed His life that ye may be quickened? Fear God, O followers of the Spirit, and walk not in the footsteps of every divine that hath gone far astray. Do ye imagine that He seeketh His own interests, when He hath, at all times, been threatened by the swords of the enemies; or that He seeketh the vanities of the world, after He hath been imprisoned in the most desolate of cities? Be fair in your judgement and follow not the footsteps of the unjust.

Open the doors of your hearts. He Who is the Spirit verily standeth before them. Wherefore keep ye afar from Him Who hath purposed to draw you nigh unto a Resplendent Spot? Say: We, in truth, have opened unto you the gates of the Kingdom. Will ye bar the doors of your houses in My face? This indeed is naught but a grievous error. He, verily, hath again come down from heaven, even as He came down from it the first time. Beware lest ye dispute that which He proclaimeth, even as the people before you disputed His utterances. Thus instructeth you the True One, could ye but perceive it.

The river Jordan is joined to the Most Great Ocean, and the Son, in the holy vale, crieth out: ‘Here am I, here am I O Lord, my God!’, whilst Sinai circleth round the House, and the Burning Bush calleth aloud: ‘He Who is the Desired One is come in His transcendent majesty.’ Say, Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled! This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: ‘Ye cannot bear it now.’ And when the appointed time was fulfilled and the Hour had struck, the Word shone forth above the horizon of the Will of God. Beware, O followers of the Son, that ye cast it not behind your backs. Take ye fast hold of it. Better is this for you than all that ye possess. Verily He is nigh unto them that do good. The Hour which We had concealed from the knowledge of the peoples of the earth and of the favoured angels hath come to pass. Say, verily, He hath testified of Me, and I do testify of Him. Indeed, He hath purposed no one other than Me. Unto this beareth witness every fair-minded and understanding soul…" **

God Bless and Regards Tony
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Bear in mind that the last time a Baha’i posted a link like this that I ‘needed to read’, it was a long rambling article that had absolutely nothing to do with the topic we were discussing, so I probably won’t read such links without some indication of how the linked text is relevant to the conversation.

It looks like your text is simply saying “You’d better follow Bahaullah, or woe unto you”, which is an interesting thing to know that Baha’i believe (it gives the lie to the claim that they reject all claims of religious exclusivism and view all religions as the same, i.e. indifferentism). If you intended it to convince people of the truth of the Baha’i faith, you should bear in mind whether you found the quote about people who preach “another Gospel” (Galatians 1, 2 Corinthians) convinced you of the truth of Catholicism.
 
eddie_too said:
Open the doors of your hearts. He Who is the Spirit verily standeth before them. Wherefore keep ye afar from Him Who hath purposed to draw you nigh unto a Resplendent Spot? Say: We, in truth, have opened unto you the gates of the Kingdom. Will ye bar the doors of your houses in My face? This indeed is naught but a grievous error. He, verily, hath again come down from heaven, even as He came down from it the first time. Beware lest ye dispute that which He proclaimeth, even as the people before you disputed His utterances. Thus instructeth you the True One, could ye but perceive it.

I think the above was written by Bahaullah. if I am mistaken, I welcome correction.

if I am right, then this seems to say that Bahaullah opened the gates of the kingdom of heaven. this begs the question of why Bahaullah thought the gates of the kingdom were closed. it also begs the question of how did Bahaullah opened the gates of heaven. and, it begs the question of **why does it matter to human beings **that Bahaullah opened the gates of heaven.
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This is an occurrence during the “Last Days” of every new revelation:
Acts 2 "But Peter, with the eleven apostles at his side, stood there and raised his voice to speak to them; Men of Judaea, he said, and all you who are dwelling in Jerusalem, I must tell you this; listen to what I have to say. 15 These men are not drunk, as you suppose; it is only the third hour of the day. 16 This is what was foretold by the prophet Joel: 17 In the last times, God says, I will pour out my spirit upon all mankind, and your sons and daughters will be prophets. Your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; 18 and I will pour out my spirit in those days upon my servants and hand-maids, so that they will prophesy. "
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TypesAndShadows said:
Bear in mind that the last time a Baha’i posted a link like this that I ‘needed to read’, it was a long rambling article that had absolutely nothing to do with the topic we were discussing, so I probably won’t read such links without some indication of how the linked text is relevant to the conversation.

It looks like your text is simply saying “You’d better follow Bahaullah, or woe unto you”, which is an interesting thing to know that Baha’i believe (it gives the lie to the claim that they reject all claims of religious exclusivism and view all religions as the same, i.e. indifferentism). If you intended it to convince people of the truth of the Baha’i faith, you should bear in mind whether you found the quote about people who preach “another Gospel” (Galatians 1, 2 Corinthians) convinced you of the truth of Catholicism.
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Hi Types 🙂

I think the context of the verses you quote from Pauls Letters to Corinth and Galatia is one of severe disunity amongst those communities.

Might I ask you, do you think that the teaching of a physical resurrection is the “same Gospel” as Paul taught in His letters?

There is no mention, not even once, in his letters, that resurrection is a physical one, and in fact the flesh is seen as a sign that you will not inherit the Kingdom of heaven, yet today Catholicism teaches that it was the “flesh” of Jesus being touched that proves to be its Gospel.

Is this Gospel one with Paul’s Gospel?

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Where are the men of Vision?
Where are true followers of thee?
The Word of God Plain to see,
Most just offer it as Division!

Christ promised to return.
Oh for that we yearn!
God Gives the way!
but then we say,
Go back from whence you came,
Not your Will but mine I claim.

TBS 17/10/2014 (Knowledge 2, 171)

God Bless all that look into the Words of God with Love, Justice and Reason.

Regards Tony
 
Servant19 said:
Hi Types 🙂

I think the context of the verses you quote from Pauls Letters to Corinth and Galatia is one of severe disunity amongst those communities.

Might I ask you, do you think that the teaching of a physical resurrection is the “same Gospel” as Paul taught in His letters?

There is no mention, not even once, in his letters, that resurrection is a physical one, and in fact the flesh is seen as a sign that you will not inherit the Kingdom of heaven, yet today Catholicism teaches that it was the “flesh” of Jesus being touched that proves to be its Gospel.

Is this Gospel one with Paul’s Gospel?

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I’m tired of the gnostics claiming Paul for themselves.

When Paul mentions in first Thessalonians (1 Thes 4: 16-17) That the lord himself will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ will raise first, what does he mean?
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Please answer the question…
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“WE SHOULD NOT SLEEP…”
To help us get a clearer understanding of what Paul was trying to tell us in 1 Thessalonians 4 let’s begin by taking a closer look at Paul’s statements concerning "those [Christians] who “sleep” and the the “dead” Christians who will “rise again.”

First, ask yourself, how did Paul use these terms elsewhere in his writings? And then ask, how were such terms used elsewhere in the New Testament?

The New Testament writings contain a number of statements concerning topics such as… sleep, death, awakening, resurrection and rebirth. For example, in Peter’s writings we find a statement which says that: “the gospel was preached also to them are dead, that they might… live according to God in the spirit.” (PNEUMATI) -1 Peter 4:6 (KJV) If we were to interpret this statement literally, then we would have to conclude that Peter was telling us that the Gospel was preached to “dead” people in an attempt to convince them to rise from their deadness.

The same is true of Paul’s writings. For example, Paul told the Christians of Rome to start acting like they are alive. He wrote: “yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead.” -Romans 6:13 (KJV) Later on, in this same book, Paul again tells these Christians: “it is now the hour for you to be aroused from sleep.”-Romans 13:11 (IB)

While Peter and Paul both advised their listeners to wake up and to rise from the “dead” … Jesus told people that they had to get “born.” Jesus said: “I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God… That which is born of flesh is flesh (SARX), and that which is born of Spirit is spirit (PNEUMA). Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.” -John 3:3-7 (KJV)

Peter and Paul clearly were not writing to people who had ever been physically dead, while Jesus was speaking to people who had obviously already been physically born. In another place, we can see where Jesus again used the analogy of “death” to refer to someone whom he had characterized as spiritually dead, spiritually misdirected or spiritually unaware. When Jesus told the man to “Let the dead bury their dead” (Luke 9:60-KJV) he certainly was not speaking of people who were physically dead and who were going to a funeral. Instead, Jesus again clearly was speaking symbolically. He was using a parable to describe people who had become spiritually misdirected.

In his letters, Paul also repeatedly employs Jesus’ symbolic parable of death. For example, in Ephesians Paul was speaking to Christians who were obviously very much physically alive, and yet, he advised: “Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead.”-Ephesians 5:14 (NIV) In what way were the Roman Christians asleep and dead? Certainly not literally.

If Paul was speaking in these other passages of something other than physical sleep or a fleshly death, then wouldn’t it be consistent to also apply the same principle of spiritual interpretation to 1 Thessalonians 4?

Consider, back in 1 Thessalonians 4, when we take a closer look at the entire context of Paul’s rapture passage, we can clearly see that Paul intended these passages to be interpreted spiritually. Here Paul concludes his statement about “those who sleep” by advising: “…so then, we should not sleep as the rest also do.”-1 Thessalonians 5:6 (IB)

(cont. below)
 
(cont.from above)

If Paul actually did intended for his statement about “those who sleep” to be interpreted literally… then to be consistent, wouldn’t we also have to conclude that his other statement just a couple of verses later “so then, we should not sleep as the rest also do” should also be interpreted literally? Was Paul trying to tell us that he doesn’t want Christians to ever physically sleep again? Of course not. This is not physically possible. Even Jesus had to sleep. (see: Matthew 8:24) So, if Paul wasn’t speaking here of literal, physical sleep, then what was he actually saying?

Apparently the Christians back in those days were not “rightly dividing” Paul’s teachings so Paul was telling them to wake up spiritually, to open their eyes to spiritual realities and to begin to “spiritually discern” his writings.

Paul continues by providing us with some even more specific examples of what he meant when he spoke of “sleep” and “death” . Two thousand years ago, the Jewish people had failed to recognize the fulfillment of their prophecies. By not recognizing the return of Elijah from heaven as John the Baptist and similarly by rejecting Jesus as their Messiah they demonstrated that they had lost the true spirit of their teachings. This is what Paul meant when he called these people “blind”, “asleep” and “dead” .

In the Book of Romans Paul explained that some of these “dead” people were raised from their spiritual deadness when they awoke to the fact that the promises contained in their scriptures had indeed been fulfilled and that Jesus truly was the Messiah. Referring to these newly awakened people, Paul wrote: “A few have [recognized Jesus as the Messiah]… but the eyes of the others have been blinded. This is what our Scriptures refer to when they say that God has put them to sleep, shutting their eyes and ears so that they do not understand what we are talking about when we tell them of Christ… it is even more wonderful when the Jews come to Christ. It will be like dead people coming back to life.” -Romans 11:7 (Living Bible- Catholic Edition)

Can you see what Paul was saying here? The Jewish people of Jesus’ day obviously were very much physically alive. However, according to Paul, as a result of their misunderstanding and denial they were characterized as being dead… not physically dead but spiritually dead or spiritually unaware. Then, Paul explains that when these people finally began to understand the inner spiritual message hidden in their scriptures and when they woke up to the fact that Jesus truly was the Messiah… Paul says that this was like “dead people coming back to life” . This was something that was so wonderful that, metaphorically speaking, it was like coming out of the grave of denial and rejection and being carried up to the heaven of belief and certitude.

This is also what Peter meant when he wrote that: “the gospel was preached also to them are dead, that they might… live according to God in the spirit (PNEUMATI) .” -1 Peter 4:6 (KJV)

This is what Peter and Paul both meant when they wrote of those who are “asleep” and those who will “rise again”.

“CAUGHT UP…”
Paul continues his statement in 1 Thessalonians by next promising that the newly awakened Christians and those Christians who had risen from the dead will next “be caught up (HARPAZO) together… to a meeting with the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.”

The literal interpretation of this passage has inspired the birth of the modern Christian dogma of “the rapture”. Most people have seen the bumper stickers which read: “Warning: in case of rapture this car will be vacant.” There actually are people who literally believe that they will physically disappear from their cars and that there will be accidents because these cars will no longer have drivers behind the steering wheel.

What would Paul have thought about this literal interpretation? What did Paul actually mean when he spoke of being “caught up… to a meeting with the Lord in the air” ? Ask yourself, what are the examples of history? How were people raptured into heaven in the past? The answer, once again, can be found in the writings of Paul and the other Apostles.

The original Greek word which has been translated here as “caught up” is HARPAZO. The word “rapture” actually is a human invention and appears nowhere in the Bible. Paul only uses this word twice in all of his writings. . . in 1 Thessalonians and in 2 Corinthians.

(cont. below)

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PAUL WAS RAPTURED TOO
In Second Corinthians, Paul reveals that he too was raptured or “caught up (HARPAZO ) as far as the third heaven… and heard words so secret that human lips may not repeat them.” -2 Corinthians 12:1 5 (NEB)

Notice here, that Paul was telling us that he, himself, was “caught up” into heaven two thousand years ago. Was Paul telling us here that he physically ascended into heaven while he was still alive? If we can believe what Paul told us back in 1 Corinthians 15, we should already know that that “flesh and blood” can’t go to heaven. So, if Paul’s writings are consistent… the answer is NO! Paul was not physically raptured or “caught up” into heaven two thousand years ago. So, ask yourself again… what was Paul trying to teach us here?

As you probably already know, before he became a Christian, there actually was a time when Paul was an enemy both of Jesus and of Christianity. Paul had rejected Jesus’ claim to be the Messiah and Paul was actively working to destroy the infant Christian Church.

When Paul woke up to the fact that Jesus truly was from God and that Jesus truly was the Christ, Paul describes this spiritual awakening as being “caught up (HARPAZO) as far as the third heaven…” -2 Corinthians 12:1-5 (NEB) Once again, Paul’s being raptured or his being “caught up” into heaven while he was still physically alive was a spiritual and not a literal, fleshly reality. Paul’s rapture symbolized his awakening to the inner spiritual realities which are concealed in the Jewish scriptures.

JOHN ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN TOO
In the Apostle John’s writings we can see that he too claimed to have ascended into heaven while he was still alive. John wrote: “After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice… said, ‘Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.’ At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven”.-Revelation 4:1 (NIV)

When John was “caught up” into heaven he explains that this happened “in the Spirit” . And again, later in the same book, John explains that he saw these things “in my vision (OPASEI)” .-Revelation 9:17 (NIV) Once again, when John was “caught up” or when he was raptured… this clearly was not in the flesh.

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Are you capable of producing a concise answer which you have not copied and pasted? I nowhere asked about rapture.

When Paul speaks about those asleep being raised in Christ at a future date, what does he mean? Is it that hard to give an answer?
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Are you capable of producing a concise answer which you have not copied and pasted? I nowhere asked about rapture.

When Paul speaks about those asleep being raised in Christ at a future date, what does he mean? Is it that hard to give an answer?
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This sounds like my abusive schoolteacher talking…

The answer to your question which was given (and it was an answer to your question) is no longer than what the Church gives in response to other questions it is posed.

Google : “Who is the Paraclete? Vatican teaching”…and you will get a response much longer than mine.

If you can’t read in a forum then what’s the point in being here? In a forum, you read.

:rolleyes:

🤷

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through faith in Jesus Christ I have been freed from slavery to sin and given the promise of eternal life, what more do I need?

I have pondered Bahaullah and the bab and what their followers say and even some of what Bahaullah wrote. I find nothing in those words that can add to my freedom or my hope.

I testify before all, that Jesus Christ has saved me from my sins and given me hope of eternal life.

I likewise testify before all that I can find nothing in the writings of Bahaullah than could be considered of importance to me. I have asked his followers to provide something that makes Bahaullah of importance to mankind. they have not provided anything.

after receiving the forgiveness of sins and the promise of eternal life through faith in Jesus, what am I missing.

unlike the bahai, I am able to provide a succinct summary of the importance of faith in Jesus to every human being.

ponder all of this in your hearts and ask the Holy Spirit what is most reasonable the forgiveness of sins and hope of eternal life given you by Jesus; or, the clanging of an empty bell, sounding out nothing of significance, that are the words and writings of Bahaullah.

I will of course retract the last comment about Bahaullah if anyone or anything reveals to me what Bahaullah gave that I need.
 
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