Believing in the True Jesus - Christians vs Baha'is

[IgnatianPhilo]

This sounds like my abusive schoolteacher talking…

The answer to your question which was given (and it was an answer to your question) is no longer than what the Church gives in response to other questions it is posed.

Google : “Who is the Paraclete? Vatican teaching”…and you will get a response much longer than mine.

If you can’t read in a forum then what’s the point in being here? In a forum, you read.





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I have addressed that many times ( the comforter being the Holy spirit) to you in less than three paragraphs (and my arguments have always been ignored). I could post six pages from NT Wright as to what he thinks concerning the passage in question (of which I agree with) but I prefer to have a fluid conversation of which points of clarification and specifics can be discussed. I prefer to talk to people not the articles of others. Borrow if you like from the argumentation, I won’t stop you from doing that, but don’t pretend its a good way of doing things.

For instance do you maintain that when Paul, speaking of:“The messiah’s dead will rise first” is this a future event or an event which has already happened?

 

[Servant19]

through faith in Jesus Christ I have been freed from slavery to sin and given the promise of eternal life, what more do I need?

I have pondered Bahaullah and the bab and what their followers say and even some of what Bahaullah wrote. I find nothing in those words that can add to my freedom or my hope.

I testify before all, that Jesus Christ has saved me from my sins and given me hope of eternal life.

I likewise testify before all that I can find nothing in the writings of Bahaullah than could be considered of importance to me. I have asked his followers to provide something that makes Bahaullah of importance to mankind. they have not provided anything.

after receiving the forgiveness of sins and the promise of eternal life through faith in Jesus, what am I missing.

unlike the bahai, I am able to provide a succinct summary of the importance of faith in Jesus to every human being.

ponder all of this in your hearts and ask the Holy Spirit what is most reasonable the forgiveness of sins and hope of eternal life given you by Jesus; or, the clanging of an empty bell, sounding out nothing of significance, that are the words and writings of Bahaullah.

I will of course retract the last comment about Bahaullah if anyone or anything reveals to me what Bahaullah gave that I need.

Very simple eddie, dear friend.

Baha’u’llah takes away the “me” from everything you wrote above.

I have no care about myself, and every single day, through Baha’u’llah, I remove more of my “self”, the “me” and replace it with the Light of God.

Like a candle, as it gives of it self, it’s light becomes more radiant, and in its sacrifice it rejoices.

There is no “me” in Baha’u’llah

A Bahai would never post what you posted above, and THATS the difference…

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[Servant19]

For instance do you maintain that when Paul, speaking of:“The messiah’s dead will rise first” is this a future event or an event which has already happened?

Both, it applies to both today AND 2000 years ago

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[Servant19]

I have addressed that many times ( the comforter being the Holy spirit) to you in less than three paragraphs (and my arguments have always been ignored). I could post six pages from NT Wright as to what he thinks concerning the passage in question (of which I agree with) but I prefer to have a fluid conversation of which points of clarification and specifics can be discussed. I prefer to talk to people not the articles of others. Borrow if you like from the argumentation, I won’t stop you from doing that, but don’t pretend its a good way of doing things.

Asking a Bahai not to quote from a scholarly works relating to Bahai theology pretty much amounts to me asking you not to quote from the Bible.

Happy to dialogue that way but you can’t quote the Bible

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[IgnatianPhilo]

Asking a Bahai not to quote from a scholarly works relating to Bahai theology pretty much amounts to me asking you not to quote from the Bible.

Happy to dialogue that way but you can’t quote the Bible

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I’m not saying don’t quote, I’m saying use it in a reasonable manner. Or do you want to demonstrate how obnoxious it can be if i did it your way?

Both, it applies to both today AND 2000 years ago

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So when Paul says “the messiah’s dead will raise first” he really should have said “The messiah’s dead are already raised” ? Tell me, if it applies now to those of us still living, how is it the dead will be raised first when it is obvious that for Paul the first Christians were obviously alive before they were dead?

 

[TypesAndShadows]

Hi Types

I think the context of the verses you quote from Pauls Letters to Corinth and Galatia is one of severe disunity amongst those communities.

Might I ask you, do you think that the teaching of a physical resurrection is the “same Gospel” as Paul taught in His letters?

There is no mention, not even once, in his letters, that resurrection is a physical one, and in fact the flesh is seen as a sign that you will not inherit the Kingdom of heaven, yet today Catholicism teaches that it was the “flesh” of Jesus being touched that proves to be its Gospel.

Is this Gospel one with Paul’s Gospel?

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Right, so you didn’t find it convincing, even though it was from a text that you nominally consider Sacred. Equally, pasting a long text telling us that terrible woes will befall us for not being Baha’i are not going to convince anyone here of anything other than that Baha’i is a faith that considers itself the only true faith.

Not that you should be trying to convince people that they should be Baha’i, because that is against the forum rules which you agreed to when you joined. But if you had decided to break your word in this manner, it would be an ineffective technique.

 

[Techno2000]

For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many. Matthew 24:5

 

[tonyfish58]

Right, so you didn’t find it convincing, even though it was from a text that you nominally consider Sacred. Equally, pasting a long text telling us that terrible woes will befall us for not being Baha’i are not going to convince anyone here of anything other than that Baha’i is a faith that considers itself the only true faith.

Not that you should be trying to convince people that they should be Baha’i, because that is against the forum rules which you agreed to when you joined. But if you had decided to break your word in this manner, it would be an ineffective technique.

Dear TypesAndShadows - This Thread’s Title should be apparent that subjects discussed here would be confronting. I was not going to participate in this thread at first because of the Title, but I saw some good questions to which Baha’u’llah has provided answers for. We are not here to convince one Soul dear friend in God, each Soul is responsible to God for their own Choices. We give more information as to those choices.

The woes and warnings dear friend are in the Bible, the passage posted reminds us all of what was foretold by Jesus the Christ.

The purpose of posting as a Baha’i is to show that Jesus the Christ can be Loved with all the Heart and Soul and no matter what accusations may be flung, that Love will never be removed from our Belief.

I suggest all people read this - vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

DECLARATION ON
THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS
NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965

After reading this one can then see the view that the Baha’i Faith has for the Muslim Faith and the Christian Faith. A Baha’i considers that the Revelation of Baha’u’llah is the fulfillment of the Bible and Koran. As such there are explanations given that reconcile how that can be so.

Dear friends - You are free to disagree. Let it not be the source of accusation, is not our aim the Love of God. This is a poem on that theme written in regards to this.

Prove to me there is a God.
Prove to me there is not a God.
Hollow words used by fools,
Participating in verbal duals.

God bless all in His Love and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many. Matthew 24:5

Matthew 7:16-20 ESV

You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

Deuteronomy 18:18 ESV

I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

Deuteronomy 18:15 ESV

“The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen—

John 1:11 ESV

He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.

Deuteronomy 18:20-22 ESV / 6 helpful votes

But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

2 Peter 1:21 ESV

For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Deuteronomy 18:15-22 ESV

“The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen— just as you desired of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die.’ And the Lord said to me, ‘They are right in what they have spoken. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

I’m not saying don’t quote, I’m saying use it in a reasonable manner. Or do you want to demonstrate how obnoxious it can be if i did it your way?

I don’t think quoting two passages in a 24 page thread is an “unreasonable manner” in quoting.

So when Paul says “the messiah’s dead will raise first” he really should have said “The messiah’s dead are already raised” ? Tell me, if it applies now to those of us still living, how is it the dead will be raised first when it is obvious that for Paul the first Christians were obviously alive before they were dead?

When Peter states in 1 Peter 4:

“For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit”

…is he saying that he spent some part of his life preaching the Gospel to physically dead people?

Most references to death and sleep in the Bible refer to a state of spiritual death and spiritual sleep.

That’s why upon recognizing Jesus these souls are “raised” so that they “may live according to God, in the Spirit”

Similarly in Romans 6, Paul states:

“For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.”

When he says “for we died”, is he saying that everyone was physically dead and buried when they recognized Christ??

Notice how Paul considers himself and others to be resurrected from the dead as they live their “new lives” in Christ. Did Paul and the Roman community all die and were physically raised from the dead?

I think not…

It applies today because Baha’is are the raised souls in the “new life” of the new Messiah. These are indeed the Last Days again, just as it was during the Apostolic Era of Christianity…
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[IgnatianPhilo]

Matthew 7:16-20 ESV

You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

Deuteronomy 18:18 ESV

I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

Deuteronomy 18:15 ESV

“The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen—

John 1:11 ESV

He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.

Deuteronomy 18:20-22 ESV / 6 helpful votes

But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

2 Peter 1:21 ESV

For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Deuteronomy 18:15-22 ESV

“The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen— just as you desired of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die.’ And the Lord said to me, ‘They are right in what they have spoken. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him.

God Bless and Regards Tony

We say that these refer to Christ, are you saying John 1.11 is talking about your prophet?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

You quoted 1 Peter 4:6 and asked did Jesus literally preach to dead people. Now it seems he didn’t preach to dead people but rather preached to the dead in hades during his death on the cross, as we are told in the chapter earlier.

18 For Christ also died for sins once for all (which bahai deny), the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

I do not understand what this has to do in relation to Thessalonians which is talking about the resurrection, a topic not mentioned in the book of Peter as far I recall. The problem for you is that Thessalonians, in presenting a chronology tells us quite clearly that the dead in the messiah will be raised first, not only that but the resurrection, the raising will be based on the same raising that Jesus has. This means it has not yet happened and so the appeal to baptism here, which Paul uses in a more figurative and symbolic manner I do not think matches the meaning perfectly. Paul is not talking about the dead and what happens to the dead in Romans 6 like he is in Thessalonians but rather baptism and being born again into Christ, putting off the old man and being the new man in the spirit.

Paul clearly does not think himself resurrected in the sense of real resurrection in Thessalonians. Remember he is talking about the dead and reassuring the Thessalonians what will happen to the dead. “We don’t want you to be ignorant my dear family, about those who have fallen asleep, so that you do not grieve like others, those who have no hope.” He then clarifies that the dead have not risen by saying “:In the same way God will, with Jesus bring those who have fallen asleep through him” and “the lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of an arch angel and God’s trumpet. The Messiah’s dead will raise first.”

There is a clear chronology at work here which Paul does not believe has taken place yet. Paul Should not have spoken as if this had not happened and proceed to misinform the thessalonians that it was going to happen. He has only fooled us Christians into thinking other things, silly things like resurrection. As I said earlier I can correct Paul with a bahai standard, that he should have said “The messiah’s dead are already raised.” Of course this is not what Paul meant because Paul in reality meant resurrection. That there is an interval between death and the raising up in the future.

NT Wright observes

“What does Paul have to say about an intermediate state? Like other second Temple Jews who believed in resurrection, Paul is left with an interval between bodily death and bodily resurrection, and this passage provides his fullest description of it. To begin with he uses the regular image of falling asleep for death, enabling him to speak of people who are currently asleep but who will one day wake up again, and to do so with echoes of Daniel 12.2, which as we saw was one of the primary biblical passages on the subject.

 

[tonyfish58]

We say that these refer to Christ, are you saying John 1.11 is talking about your prophet?

It is an applicable saying for all time. It is applicable to all before the Jews, it is applicable to the Jews, it is applicable to the Christians it is applicable to the Muslims and will most likely be applicable to the Baha’i s in a future not yet reached by us mere mortals.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

It is an applicable saying for all time. It is applicable to all before the Jews, it is applicable to the Jews, it is applicable to the Christians it is applicable to the Muslims and will most likely be applicable to the Baha’i s in a future not yet reached by us mere mortals.

God Bless and Regards Tony

So Moses, Krishna, Abraham and Buddha are all the logos? Why doesn’t John write it better then, like “In the begining was the Logos… and the logos come and dwelt among us in Abraham, then in Moses, then In Budha and now finally he has come to dwell in Jesus.”

I mean here’s what John actually says

John 1:4 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) 16 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.[d] 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God,[e] who is at the Father’s side,[f] he has made him known.

Why did grace and truth not come through Moses if they are all the logos? Do you think John could have confused us Christians any more than he already has?

 

[tonyfish58]

For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

Dear IgnatianPhilo - From what I currently know We are told that one of the meanings applicable to the “Dead in Christ” can be thought as like this.

There are many in lives and years past that have lived a life in True Worship of their Lord and fully understood of what they were being told. These people have passed from this life but are still “Alive in Spirit”.

Baha’u’llah has given us the Vision that all these Holy Souls form the “Concourse on High” and other stations applicable to “All the Worlds of God”. These Souls are the first to bow down to Gods new manifestation, they circle around the “New Word” and are our inspiration in this life

“Let not your hearts be perturbed, O people, when the glory of My Presence is withdrawn, and the ocean of My utterance is stilled. In my presence amongst you there is a wisdom, and in My absence there is yet another, inscrutable to all but God, the Incomparable, the All-Knowing. Verily, We behold you from Our realm of glory, and shall aid whosoever will arise for the triumph of Our Cause with the hosts of the Concourse on high and a company of Our favoured angels.”

This is a link to writings on Divine Assistance - bahai-library.com/compilation_power_divine_assistance

Baha’u’llah has said that during Revelation of the Words of God, these Holy Souls all gather and rejoice in the Word being given unto Man. They are the first to arise to the “New Message”.

It is a Glorious Vision - The link provided very inspirational.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

So Moses, Krishna, Abraham and Buddha are all the logos? Why doesn’t John write it better then, like “In the begining was the Logos… and the logos come and dwelt among us in Abraham, then in Moses, then In Budha and now finally he has come to dwell in Jesus.”

I mean here’s what John actually says

John 1:4 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) 16 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.[d] 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God,[e] who is at the Father’s side,[f] he has made him known.

Why did grace and truth not come through Moses if they are all the logos? Do you think John could have confused us Christians any more than he already has?

IgnatianPhilo - Yes dear friend in God, we are told that their Station is that of “They are all the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End”. It is only the intensity of the message that changes as God sees fit for mankind. It does not mean they did not possess all the Knowledge.

God Doeth as He Willeth the key to accepting this concept

You ask Why God does not make it Clear. I think the answer is now very obvious.

What Has man done to all the Prophets when they came to give the Truth? God knows our capacity at any given time and how we will react to His Message, thus it is Delivered in Perfect Harmony for the age it is revealed.

This is why Christ says I have more to say unto you.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[TypesAndShadows]

Dear TypesAndShadows - This Thread’s Title should be apparent that subjects discussed here would be confronting. I was not going to participate in this thread at first because of the Title, but I saw some good questions to which Baha’u’llah has provided answers for. We are not here to convince one Soul dear friend in God, each Soul is responsible to God for their own Choices. We give more information as to those choices.

There is a difference between this:

Dear IgnatianPhilo - From what I currently know We are told that one of the meanings applicable to the “Dead in Christ” can be thought as like this.

There are many in lives and years past that have lived a life in True Worship of their Lord and fully understood of what they were being told. These people have passed from this life but are still “Alive in Spirit”.

Baha’u’llah has given us the Vision that all these Holy Souls form the “Concourse on High” and other stations applicable to “All the Worlds of God”. These Souls are the first to bow down to Gods new manifestation, they circle around the “New Word” and are our inspiration in this life

in which you are clearly sharing your faith in a way that we can all learn from each other, and a sequence in which: Servant posts that a Christian view must be nonsense because Jesus said something; it is pointed out that Jesus never said that in any Christian Scriptures, unless one picks only tiny phrases without surrounding context, and a request is made for where in Baha’i teaching this saying of Jesus can be found; you then reply with a long quote with a link to an article, and the thrust of the quotation isn’t a Baha’i teaching of Jesus saying this, but is rather about anyone who isn’t Baha’i suffering consequences.

Can you see that these are different things? Unless your long linked article contained a passage about Baha’i teaching on Jesus saying that he had more to tell us, which I would have expected you to quote, you can surely see that this is quite different from proper exchange of beliefs and views, which I’m sure you are good at (as seen in your more recent post).

This is why Christ says I have more to say unto you.

Where in Baha’i teaching can I read Christ saying that he has more to say to people living after the Apostles received the Holy Spirit?

 

[tonyfish58]

Why did grace and truth not come through Moses if they are all the logos? Do you think John could have confused us Christians any more than he already has?

IgnatianPhilo - I see the confusion as being all of our own making dear friend in God.

We are told that Nature is but a reflection of all the Words and meanings of God. We are told that if we study Nature all Truth can also be found. I like the way this also ties in a lot of ancient religions that have the Earth as there knowledge of our Creator.

What tends to happen is man deuces a proof thinking they have become very knowledgeable in God and in the end that Truth is not based on Gods Knowledge but our own worldly ambitions/promptings. It was a great test for the Jews to jump this hurdle of acquired knowledge, it remains our Hurdle as well.

One thing is painfully obvious is that we know basically nothing. We all have to turn to God for any Knowledge. It is in the Traditions that Knowledge is of 27 Letters and that up the coming of the Promised One only 2 letters had been released to mankind.

The Revelation of the Bab released the entire remaining 25 letters of Knowledge. If one looks at what man knew up to the mid 1800’s and then look at what has transpired since this time, then more truth is opened before our eyes.

God Bless all and Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

Right, so you didn’t find it convincing, even though it was from a text that you nominally consider Sacred. Equally, pasting a long text telling us that terrible woes will befall us for not being Baha’i are not going to convince anyone here of anything other than that Baha’i is a faith that considers itself the only true faith.

Not that you should be trying to convince people that they should be Baha’i, because that is against the forum rules which you agreed to when you joined. But if you had decided to break your word in this manner, it would be an ineffective technique.

Where did I paste a long text saying that woe will befall you??

I do find the text convincing, but within context.

I also find the Hindu texts saying similar things equally convincing but all within context dear friend

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[IgnatianPhilo]

Tony engage with my arguments please. If you want to argue that Paul or John means something else, make the argument. Don’t give me platitudes.

Why doesn’t John say the logos became flesh with Moses if the logos is truly Moses? Isn’t it obvious from the text, from the entire NT, that Moses is not the Logos. That if the law came from Moses but grace came from Jesus then this implies they are different. We are told in Hebrews that Jesus is greater than Moses, counted more worthy of honour as creator than Moses who was merely a loyal follower. We are told in Saint Paul it not by the law anyone is saved, but through grace.

The bahai interpretation doesn’t take this into consideration.