Believing in the True Jesus - Christians vs Baha'is

[meltzerboy]

meltzerboy - That is a very good question!

I have not studied this aspect of the Faith very much, but have come across what I think is the concept in many of the writings.

It is stated that the Only Direct revelation form God is through the Manifestations. God chooses these Human Temples when and where He so chooses. No one else is ever given direct Revelation from God.

In the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah we have been Gifted Abdul’Baha (The Servant of Baha), who was directly inspired by His Father Baha’u’llah to interpret His word and as such His Writings are also seen as scripture. This was passed to Shoghi Effendi whos was able to offer the intended meaning of both Baha’u’llah’s and Abdul’Baha’s Writings.

There are others that are so in-tuned with this Manifestation in each age, that they have reached the state of Selflessness required to mirror the Word of the Messenger to Mankind in a more Pure Form than the rest of Humanity.

In the Past we would see them as the Lesser Prophets of the Old Testament and the Disciples of Christ. In the Time of the Bab and Baha’u’llah there were “Letters of the Living” and a few recorded believers that reached this state of Detachment.

Thus the inner Light within us, can only reflected the message of the Most Recent Manifestation by us cleaning the mirror of our heart from all worldly attachments. We will never have Direct revelation From God. We will always be Submissive Servants to our God through the Manifestation of the age in which we live.

There are in my opinion many Souls that have not yet found the path to their Lord, that have very Pure Hearts and are thus reflecting to mankind the principles and requirements of this age, it is when they connect to the source that they become great teachers of mankind. Of course this is in Reality the Messenger working through a very polished mirror, it is not of our own doing.

This will be very left field, but as you asked a very deep question, I thought you would like this as an interesting reflection - It may be of Interest that all Revelations from time as we know it up to Bab all received Gods revelation through “The Glory of God”, that is Baha’u’llah, who’s Station is that of the “Father”. Baha’u’llah tells us that this Revelation is the First time the Most Great Spirit of God spoke directly to man.

Thus the Voice to Moses through the Burning Bush was that of the Father, Christ rose and Sat at the Right Hand of the Father. This brings up a never ending subject on the “Two Fold Station” of the Manifestations. Baha’u’llah has told us Even They do not have access to the knowledge of the essence of God.

I hope that answers your question and I hope you find interest in the added comments!

God Bless your journey with Faith and Love - Regards Tony

Thank you for your informative answer, Tony.

 

[Servant19]

the bahai say the apostles did not understand what Jesus was teaching them.

that makes Jesus the fool in that either He did not know the apostles were no understanding Him and continued to feed to them what was (to them) misunderstood information; or, He knew they did not understand what He was saying but kept teaching them and telling them to reveal theses Sacred and Divine Mysteries throughout the world.

that is in effect the esteem in which the bahai hold Jesus.

RCs believe Jesus taught the disciples in a manner that would make them effective in transmitting His message to believers. RCs believe the apostles were NOT confused by Jesus. RCs believe what the apostles taught and their successors still teach are what they received from Jesus.\

it is repeated time and again by the bahai that what the apostles and their successors teach is not what Jesus taught.

now it is quite common that a bahai, not unlike a Mormon, changes what they say when they have no answer to the logic of Jesus and the RCC.

even a bahai should be able to understand that what the RC teaches today is what it received from the apostles and their successors.

if you read what the bahai write, you will see that they completely reject the Trinity, given to us by Jesus through apostolic succession. they completely reject that Jesus possessed two natures, a Divine nature and a human nature although He was only One Person, the Second Person in the most Holy Trinity as taught by the apostles and their successors. they completely reject that public revelation ended with the Ascension of Jesus as taught by the apostles and their successors. they completely reject the Real Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist as taught to us by the apostles and their successors.

I realize in their blind faith in Bahaullah, that logic and reason mean little.

but it is a fact that RCs today believe the same things that the apostles taught in the first century and their successors taught in every generation since.

so. the Bahia either believe that Jesus was incapable of giving the Truth to the apostles and kept futilely trying knowing they would get it wrong; or, that somewhere along the line of apostolic succession the teachings of Jesus changed for the worse.

they have NO evidence for either position. just like the Mormons when confronted with disbelief, the bahai say, read what Bahaullah wrote and the spirit will guide you. that is what the Mormons say when unable to explain satisfactorily why they should be believed. they say just keep reading the book of Mormon and the spirit will lead you to the truth.

that is all I am saying. the bahai exhibit extreme faith although it is blind faith. it is blind because it is irrational. it becomes particularly irrational when it attacks Jesus and the RCC.

more recently, and those who have been reading these threads will recognize this tactic, the bahai have begun claiming that God’s revelations change for each generation. the RCC and others call this relativism. the bahai indicate that what was true, in matters of the Divine and Eternal mysteries, for people living four thousand years ago or two thousand years ago is no longer true for us living today.

the RCC teaches that God is unchangeable. in the Judeo-Christian realm, the glimpse in to the Divine Mysteries that God gave to Noah, then to Abraham, later to Moses and down through time to the rest of the Hebrew prophets is a growing understanding of those Mysteries. the Mysteries do not change but man’s understanding of them grows. RCs do not deny that as the depths of the Mysteries are plumbed by devout and holy men and women, its understanding of those Mysteries grow.

the difference between the bahai and the RC in this regard is that the RC realizes that with the coming of Jesus Christ there is nothing more to be revealed. the RCC teaches that understanding the fullness of revelation brought by Jesus can grow within the Church as well as within an individual. devout catholics recognize this phenomenon in their own lives. I know of no RCs who would claim that they do not have a better understanding of their relationship with Christ now then they had twenty years ago.

the bahai, when they address apostolic succession and the truths taught us by Jesus, try to say that the doctrines were wrong. not misunderstood or only shallowly understood. this could only be called a growth in revelation by someone blind to all that surrounds the Judeo-Christian realm, meaning the history and the writings and preachings and teachings and traditions, etc., etc.

saying God is not Trinitarian is NOT a misunderstanding. it is a complete and absolute change from what we received from Jesus through apostolic succession. it is a contradiction. teaching and belief in the Trinity cannot be understood to have ever meant there is only One Person who shares the Divine Nature.

for these reasons, I find the bahai doctrine that what were formerly truths are now not true to be unacceptable. the bahai do not preach growth in understanding. they preach changing the essential Divine Mysteries given us by Jesus.

eddie too.
Your behaviour is unCatholic and tarnishes your religion which you profess so strongly.

I will tell you why.

Your last post was made up of accusations against the Baha’is which I asked you to provide evidence of.

NO EVIDENCE WAS GIVEN BY YOU.

Now again in this post, you say that “the bahai say the apostles did not understand what Jesus was teaching them.”

I ask you for one post where the Baha’is stated this? Just one post please!!

Until then I will continually point out any dishonesty and insincerity. Is this what Catholicism teaches you??

Please stop!!

Thankyou

.

 

[Nick44]

If you read what the bahai write, you will see that they completely reject the Trinity. The bahai exhibit extreme faith although it is blind faith. it is blind because it is irrational.

We don’t reject the Trinity, Eddie. As has been explained, over and over again, what we reject is a literal interpretation of the Trinity. Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha have given thorough explanations of exactly what the Trinity is and what it represents, and that explanation is both rational and fulfilling.

As to the Baha’i Faith being ‘blind’, I would propose that it is the exact opposite; a very, very rational faith. Religion, at its core, is rational, and the very reason that God gave us rational brains to explore it with. Superstition creeps in when man puts his rational brain on the shelf, and follows blind imitation.

Eddie, I invite you to point out to me the irrationality of any of the following:

Be generous in prosperity and thankful in adversity,

Be fair in thy judgment, and guarded in thy speech.

Be a lamp unto those who walk in darkness, and a home to the stranger.

Be eyes to the blind, and a guiding light unto the feet of the erring.

Be a breath of life to the body of humankind, a dew to the soil of the human heart,

and a fruit upon the tree of humility.” --Baha’u’llah

 

[SteveVH]

As to the Baha’i Faith being ‘blind’, I would propose that it is the exact opposite; a very, very rational faith. Religion, at its core, is rational, and the very reason that God gave us rational brains to explore it with. Superstition creeps in when man puts his rational brain on the shelf, and follows blind imitation.

Eddie, I invite you to point out to me the irrationality of any of the following:

Be generous in prosperity and thankful in adversity,

Be fair in thy judgment, and guarded in thy speech.

Be a lamp unto those who walk in darkness, and a home to the stranger.

Be eyes to the blind, and a guiding light unto the feet of the erring.

Be a breath of life to the body of humankind, a dew to the soil of the human heart,

and a fruit upon the tree of humility.” --Baha’u’llah

There is nothing unique here. Each one of these principles have been stated for thousands of years before Baha’u’llah or the Bab saw the light of day. One cannot take these principles, add their own choice of flowery language and then claim them as his own. Its called plagiarism.

Having said that, your response is a non-sequitur. You claim that the Baha’i faith is rational and then throw this out to prove your point. Repeating age old truisms with a slightly new spin has nothing to do with rationality or reasonableness.

Lets take a real look at the rationality and reasonableness of the Baha’i faith. The Baha’i claim that all religions are true while it is evident to the rational mind that this is a blatantly false statement. Lets take a quick look at just two of the religions that the Baha’i claim to embrace and hold as “True”.

Christianity: Jesus was crucified and died for our sins.
Islam: Jesus was not crucified. An imposter took his place.

Christianity: Jesus rose bodily from the grave.
Islam: Jesus was not resurrected.

Christianity: Jesus is the Son of God
Islam: God has no son and is not a “Father”.

Now, the premise of the Baha’i faith is that both Islam and Christianity are true. Any rational mind can tell you that this is an objectively false statement based only upon the three examples given above, and there are many, many more doctrinal conflicts which I haven’t stated.

So, I would like you to please explain to me, in light of these glaring conflicts, how a rational person can hold both as true?

Thanks.

Steve

 

[SteveVH]

There is so much that does not make sense here Steve…

Christ’s sacrifice occurred on earth, at a specific moment in TIME.

Heaven is outside of TIME.

Since when did heaven become entrapped in the framework of TIME, by being opened/closed by an act that occurred within TIME???

You really don’t have the faintest clue of even the basics of Christianity. Jesus is eternal because Jesus is divine; the Almighty God. The fact that he became incarnate and entered into time does not mean he gave up his divinity. His sacrifice was for all of mankind and is not limited by time and space. So please stop trying to set up a straw man so that you have something to burn down. If you want to differ with Christianity, then please differ with what it really teaches and holds to be true.

The moment Jesus came and the sacrifice was made, all of humanity fell into sin.

Are you trying to tell me that no one sinned before Christ came to earth? I seem to remember something about Adam and Eve, Cain and Able, the slaughtering of the innocents, the golden calf, and on and on and on… You have just stated that Christ’s sacrifice was the cause of humanity falling into sin.

Those who witnessed Jesus and heard His revelation were judged according to their acceptance or rejection of God’s revelation, and heaven or hell were beckoning for them. Those who never heard of Jesus (and even until today this is Catholic teaching) are reliant on God’s mercy.

No. Catholic teaching is that we are all, Christians and non-Christians, reliant on God’s mercy. Jesus Christ is God’s mercy. Christ died for all of humanity, even those who do not believe or have never heard of him. Those who have not accepted Christ will stand before the judgment seat of God and will be judged according to what they did with what they had. Those who have accepted Christ will stand before God, washed clean from all of their sins. The Catholic Church canonizes saints, whose who we know are in heaven through a supernatural event. It has never proclaimed anyone in particular as being condemned to hell, though it has been revealed to us that there are people in hell. For non-believers, we commend them to God’s mercy and they will be judged according to their deeds and the intention of their hearts.

 

[SteveVH]

Sorry for the confusion, but that graphic above contains symbols of religions that are pretty certainly man made.

Secondly, the foundation of this theology is that all religions are true in their ENTIRETY for the period that the Revelation is given until the moment the next Revelation is given.

So today, Truth is found in its fullness in Baha’u’llah’s Revelation, but that will again be superseded by the next Manifestation of God in the future…

Originally Posted by meltzerboy

I understand. Thanks for the explanation

Well, I don’t understand the explanation at all. How in the world can “Truth” only be “Truth” for a period of time, after which it is no longer truth? How can something be true today and not true tomorrow? This line of thought is completely irrational. Truth is not relative.

Regardless of one’s understanding of the principles of gravity, those who jump off a ten story building today will hit the ground just as hard as one who lived before Isaac Newton. Gravity is an objective truth. It never changes. Even more, the revelations of God which are eternal.

 

[Techno2000]

There is nothing unique here. Each one of these principles have been stated for thousands of years before Baha’u’llah or the Bab saw the light of day. One cannot take these principles, add their own choice of flowery language and then claim them as his own. Its called plagiarism.

Having said that, your response is a non-sequitur. You claim that the Baha’i faith is rational and then throw this out to prove your point. Repeating age old truisms with a slightly new spin has nothing to do with rationality or reasonableness.

Lets take a real look at the rationality and reasonableness of the Baha’i faith. The Baha’i claim that all religions are true while it is evident to the rational mind that this is a blatantly false statement. Lets take a quick look at just two of the religions that the Baha’i claim to embrace and hold as “True”.

Christianity: Jesus was crucified and died for our sins.
Islam: Jesus was not crucified. An imposter took his place.

Christianity: Jesus rose bodily from the grave.
Islam: Jesus was not resurrected.

Christianity: Jesus is the Son of God
Islam: God has no son and is not a “Father”.

Now, the premise of the Baha’i faith is that both Islam and Christianity are true. Any rational mind can tell you that this is an objectively false statement based only upon the three examples given above, and there are many, many more doctrinal conflicts which I haven’t stated.

So, I would like you to please explain to me, in light of these glaring conflicts, how a rational person can hold both as true?

Thanks.

Steve

Baha’u’llah has explained all this, thats all you need to know.

 

[SteveVH]

Baha’u’llah has explained all this, thats all you need to know.

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting.

 

[SteveVH]

“By their fruits ye shall know them…”

Ask yourself dear friend, are the fruits of the Bahai Faith from God?
Are the fruits comparable to Christianity?
Can any of the religions and movements you list be remotely compared to Christisnity and the Bahai Faith in their fruits?

That’s hard to answer. I’m not sure I have seen any fruits of the Baha’i faith in order to make a comparison. Maybe you could list some these fruits and then we can compare with the others.

The Mormons make exactly the same claim. They have many good fruits, to be sure. Why should I believe Baha’u’llah over Joseph Smith and how do you know that he is not a true prophet?

 

[meltzerboy]

Well, I don’t understand the explanation at all. How in the world can “Truth” only be “Truth” for a period of time, after which it is no longer truth? How can something be true today and not true tomorrow? This line of thought is completely irrational. Truth is not relative.

Regardless of one’s understanding of the principles of gravity, those who jump off a ten story building today will hit the ground just as hard as one who lived before Isaac Newton. Gravity is an objective truth. It never changes. Even more, the revelations of God which are eternal.

Steve, I think Tony is trying to say that the truth functions in its entirety within a certain period of time until more of the truth is revealed to us. IOW there is continuing revelation to mankind. I believe this is what Christianity says with regard to Judaism: that is, that the Law (Torah) contained the truth until Jesus came and fulfilled the Law while establishing a New Covenant, which, according to Christianity (but not Judaism), was predicted in the Hebrew Scriptures. According to the Baha’i faith, that New Covenant was the fullness of truth until the truth it contained was further fulfilled by another covenant and so on. The Baha’i beliefs are currently the truth as we know it until more of G-d’s complete truth is revealed to us and another religion supersedes the last one. In a sense, one could say that truth is relative; but what the Baha’i religion really teaches, based on my understanding, is that the revelation from G-d is an ever-evolving, gradual process. Further, we humans can NEVER fully understand the mind of G-d in this life or even in the afterlife.

 

[Nick44]

Well, I don’t understand the explanation at all. How in the world can “Truth” only be “Truth” for a period of time, after which it is no longer truth? How can something be true today and not true tomorrow? This line of thought is completely irrational. Truth is not relative. .

The eternal truth never changes. The social application of that truth does.

Truth: parents love their child.
How that love is expressed in practical ways does change based on changing conditions.

age 4, stay out of the street
age 6, look both ways before you cross
age 17, be home by midnight
age 25, we’re always available if you need us

Humanity, collectively, has gone through childhood, adolescence and is now entering maturity. The social expressions of the one truth, and our understanding of it, changes as our capacity grows, and our needs differ. As the loving parent of mankind, God updates His program as we advance and can handle more.

The next stage in societal evolution is the unity of the entire planet, and that is the main reason for Baha’u’llah’s Revelation. This unity (promised in ALL the Holy Books) is destined to come about because it is God’s Will that it do so, but not by force, coercion or suspension of free will. The Coach has sent in the play, and we’re on the field running it.

“On earth as it is in heaven”

 

[SteveVH]

According to the Baha’i faith, that New Covenant was the fullness of truth until the truth it contained was further fulfilled by another covenant and so on.

Then it wasn’t really the fullness of truth to begin with, was it? When a glass is full, it is full, period.

The Baha’i beliefs are currently the truth as we know it until more of G-d’s complete truth is revealed to us and another religion supersedes the last one. In a sense, one could say that truth is relative; but what the Baha’i religion really teaches, based on my understanding, is that the revelation from G-d is an ever-evolving, gradual process. Further, we humans can NEVER fully understand the mind of G-d in this life or even in the afterlife.

Truth is not dependent upon whether we know it or not. It is either truth or it is not, and it is either the fullness of truth or it is lacking. One cannot possess and claim the fullness of truth if there is still truth it has not received.

 

[meltzerboy]

Then it wasn’t really the fullness of truth to begin with, was it? When a glass is full, it is full, period.

Truth is not dependent upon whether we know it or not. It is either truth or it is not, and it is either the fullness of truth or it is lacking. One cannot receive the fullness of truth if there is still truth it has not received.

The fullness of truth must be RECEIVED, which means the recipient must be ready to receive it. Therefore, it seems to me, that although the complete truth may exist apart from mankind, it is the capacity of mankind to receive and relate to the truth that the Baha’i faith considers. Even the contents of a full glass can be poured into a larger glass in which the contents are less than full.

 

[SteveVH]

The eternal truth never changes. The social application of that truth does.

Truth: parents love their child.
How that love is expressed in practical ways does change based on changing conditions.

age 4, stay out of the street
age 6, look both ways before you cross
age 17, be home by midnight
age 25, we’re always available if you need us

Humanity, collectively, has gone through childhood, adolescence and is now entering maturity. The social expressions of the one truth, and our understanding of it, changes as our capacity grows, and our needs differ. As the loving parent of mankind, God updates His program as we advance and can handle more.

The next stage in societal evolution is the unity of the entire planet, and that is the main reason for Baha’u’llah’s Revelation. This unity (promised in ALL the Holy Books) is destined to come about because it is God’s Will that it do so, but not by force, coercion or suspension of free will. The Coach has sent in the play, and we’re on the field running it.

“On earth as it is in heaven”

Always back to the milk to meat argument. Christians are infants in their understanding and the Baha’i are the enlightened ones. No, I don’t buy it for a second.

 

[Nick44]

Truth is not dependent upon whether we know it or not. It is either truth or it is not, and it is either the fullness of truth or it is lacking. One cannot possess and claim the fullness of truth if there is still truth it has not received.

Exactly. 2+2=4 is truth. E=mc2 is also truth but does not lessen or negate 2+2=4. The ‘fullness’ of truth will never arrive. There will always be a point ahead, and God will always reveal more and more to us as we have the capacity to understand.

Jesus Himself told His disciples that there were many things He had yet to say, “but you cannot bear them now”.

“Verily, He Who is the Spirit of Truth is come to guide you unto all truth. He speaketh not as prompted by His own self, but as bidden by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.” Baha’u’llah

 

[meltzerboy]

Exactly. 2+2=4 is truth. E=mc2 is also truth but does not lessen or negate 2+2=4. The ‘fullness’ of truth will never arrive. There will always be a point ahead, and God will always reveal more and more to us as we have the capacity to understand.

Jesus Himself told His disciples that there were many things He had yet to say, “but you cannot bear them now”.

“Verily, He Who is the Spirit of Truth is come to guide you unto all truth. He speaketh not as prompted by His own self, but as bidden by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.” Baha’u’llah

In Judaism, the Oral Law (Talmud) is designed to fill in some of the missing details of the Written Law (Torah). Further, the mystical writings of the Kabbalah, particularly the Zohar, serve to help in the interpretation of the Torah. Judaism believes that all the truth is contained in the Torah but that its understanding requires many a lifetime.

 

[SteveVH]

The fullness of truth must be RECEIVED, which means the recipient must be ready to receive it. Therefore, it seems to me, that although the complete truth may exist apart from mankind, it is the capacity of mankind to receive and relate to the truth that the Baha’i faith considers. Even the contents of a full glass can be poured into a larger glass in which the contents are less than full.

Redefining the “fullness of truth” as one’s capacity to receive and understand it doesn’t change anything.

The analogy that Nick makes:

Originally Posted by Nick
age 4, stay out of the street
age 6, look both ways before you cross
age 17, be home by midnight
age 25, we’re always available if you need us

fails in that they do not accept the most basic dogmas and doctrines of Christianity as ever being true. I have asked, in more than a few posts, if there are any dogmas or doctrines of the Catholic Church with which they agree. What they are saying is: It’s now okay to play in the street and there is no longer the need to look both ways before you cross. The correct way to view this is that we must stay out of the street and look both ways before we cross as both children and adults. The truth does not change.

 

[Nick44]

Always back to the milk to meat argument. Christians are infants in their understanding and the Baha’i are the enlightened ones. No, I don’t buy it for a second.

Steve, EVERYTHING we deal with in life changes, grows, is updated as conditions change (think insurance), seasons change, people change…absolutely everything.

Except, in your view,

Religious truth.

–Here ya go, here’s everything, nothing more to give, one shot, you now know it all.–

I choose another path than that.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, EVERYTHING we deal with in life changes, grows, is updated as conditions change (think insurance), seasons change, people change…absolutely everything.

Except, in your view, Religious truth.

Correct. God never changes and therefore his truth never changes. We certainly can grow in our understanding of the truth revealed to us, but that Truth remains the same. I may develop and grow in my understanding of the Trinity, but my understanding does not make it any more or any less true.

–Here ya go, here’s everything, nothing more to give, one shot, you now know it all.–

I choose another path than that.

No, Nick, I don’t know it all. I will spend the rest of my life learning and growing in my understanding of the fullness of truth revealed by Christ to his own Church.

 

[Nick44]

fails in that they do not accept the most basic dogmas and doctrines of Christianity as ever being true. I have asked, in more than a few posts, if there are any dogmas or doctrines of the Catholic Church with which they agree. What they are saying is: It’s now okay to play in the street and there is no longer the need to look both ways before you cross. The correct way to view this is that we must stay out of the street and look both ways before we cross as both children and adults. The truth does not change.

I kind of like that example I gave. The point being that an outside observer could easily say that the parents changed their minds since they changed the rules. We both know better. That logic (in my mind) is easily transferred as to why God changes His requirements from time to time.

Catholics love Jesus Christ +. Catholics recognize every word out of Jesus’ mouth came from God +. Catholics honor marriage and the family +. Catholics encourage good morals and a fruitful life +. I could go on…it would be a very long list.