Believing in the True Jesus - Christians vs Baha'is

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Correct. God never changes and therefore his truth never changes. We certainly can grow in our understanding of the truth revealed to us, but that Truth remains the same. I may develop and grow in my understanding of the Trinity, but my understanding does not make it any more or any less true.
We’re on the same page, here (I think). The ABSOLUTE truth, like the ESSENCE of God, does not change and is totally true for all time and eternity, but is ONLY known to God. So, our understanding of truth IS relative based on our capacity and understanding.

We will always ‘know’ more, but never know everything.

Believing that there are explanations other than strictly literal ones (like for the Trinity) does not mean they aren’t true, just that we have come to a different understanding based on Baha’u’llah’s explanations.

The spiritual truths and meanings contained in the scriptures are endless.
 
There is nothing unique here. Each one of these principles have been stated for thousands of years before Baha’u’llah or the Bab saw the light of day. One cannot take these principles, add their own choice of flowery language and then claim them as his own. Its called plagiarism.Steve
God is then the best of plagiarists John 16: 13-15

…13"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15"All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.…

WHEN MAN FORGETS GOD BEGETS 😉

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
God is then the best of plagiarists John 16: 13-15

…13"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15"All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.…

WHEN MAN FORGETS GOD BEGETS 😉

God Bless and Regards Tony
How many times has this been pointed out that this is not your prophet but the holy spirit? If I make the argument again will the bahai engage with it or ignore it and then ten pages later make this same point again?
 
Are you trying to tell me that no one sinned before Christ came to earth? I seem to remember something about Adam and Eve, Cain and Able, the slaughtering of the innocents, the golden calf, and on and on and on… You have just stated that Christ’s sacrifice was the cause of humanity falling into sin. :eek:
No that is not what is being Said

Upon the Day of Gods revelation, that is the Declaration on His Manifestation. The Slate is wiped clean, that is Sin is Removed for this time.

We then enter our Judgement Day (You know Gods Days are not just one plain day, it is the length between Manifestations)

It is then each Mans response to the Word after this Declaration that becomes the sin He answers to.

Dear Friend we are all under this Judgement right here right now, it is our choice what we do about it!

God Bless all our choices - Regards Tony
 
Steve, I think Tony is trying to say that the truth functions in its entirety within a certain period of time until more of the truth is revealed to us. IOW there is continuing revelation to mankind. I believe this is what Christianity says with regard to Judaism: that is, that the Law (Torah) contained the truth until Jesus came and fulfilled the Law while establishing a New Covenant, which, according to Christianity (but not Judaism), was predicted in the Hebrew Scriptures. According to the Baha’i faith, that New Covenant was the fullness of truth until the truth it contained was further fulfilled by another covenant and so on. The Baha’i beliefs are currently the truth as we know it until more of G-d’s complete truth is revealed to us and another religion supersedes the last one. In a sense, one could say that truth is relative; but what the Baha’i religion really teaches, based on my understanding, is that the revelation from G-d is an ever-evolving, gradual process. Further, we humans can NEVER fully understand the mind of G-d in this life or even in the afterlife.
meltzerboy - Dear friend in God - Just to let you know this was in regards to your conversation with Servant and not my post

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
Then it wasn’t really the fullness of truth to begin with, was it? When a glass is full, it is full, period.

Truth is not dependent upon whether we know it or not. It is either truth or it is not, and it is either the fullness of truth or it is lacking. One cannot possess and claim the fullness of truth if there is still truth it has not received.
SteveVH - It can be said can it not that All Truth is contained in but let say 2 letters, that is B & E.

God could have left us to that, it is the Fullness of Truth.

This tells us that there is a Creator, that He created us in His Image, that we are to know and to Love God etc etc

But how are we to see the Truth within this? Progressive Revelation is what God has Given us, it is not dependent upon us but we are dependent on the Revelations of His Word as mankind gains further capacity to understand.

Have you considered why in the last 200 years that mankind has shifted from being told what is the Truth to being able to determine this for themselves?

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
In Judaism, the Oral Law (Talmud) is designed to fill in some of the missing details of the Written Law (Torah). Further, the mystical writings of the Kabbalah, particularly the Zohar, serve to help in the interpretation of the Torah. Judaism believes that all the truth is contained in the Torah but that its understanding requires many a lifetime.
That is great information and is what as a Baha’i we believe, from a Baha’i Point of View Baha’u’llah has fully opened the meaning of those scriptures for us to explore in great awe as we progress towards God into the far Future.

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
Redefining the “fullness of truth” as one’s capacity to receive and understand it doesn’t change anything.

The analogy that Nick makes:

fails in that they do not accept the most basic dogmas and doctrines of Christianity as ever being true. I have asked, in more than a few posts, if there are any dogmas or doctrines of the Catholic Church with which they agree. What they are saying is: It’s now okay to play in the street and there is no longer the need to look both ways before you cross. The correct way to view this is that we must stay out of the street and look both ways before we cross as both children and adults. The truth does not change.
SteveVH - What it is saying is we have learned that we do not play in the street and we have learned to look both ways before we cross the street, we have learned our parents are wise and give us sound advice.

We have forgotten not a thing of this Wise Council, but have come of age that there is more to learn that the Parents do not know, there is a whole universe of Knowledge out there to explore.

If we stick to the past and if we ever reject the past knowledge we do not open ourselves to further capacity and most likely will get run over.

God Bless and regards Tony
 
How many times has this been pointed out that this is not your prophet but the holy spirit? If I make the argument again will the bahai engage with it or ignore it and then ten pages later make this same point again?
IgnatianPhilo - Yes that is what you believe and you are aware that the Baha’i s believe that passage refers to Baha’u’llah “The Glory of God” in the Station of “The Father”.

Would you then not agree that no further comment is needed?

We both Love the same God with this different take on the Station of His Messengers. It is great for me to know what you believe, it is great for you to know what I believe.

If this causes disunity, then we both may as well throw away the Love of God because it is of no use to us!

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
IgnatianPhilo - Yes that is what you believe and you are aware that the Baha’i s believe that passage refers to Baha’u’llah “The Glory of God” in the Station of “The Father”.

Would you then not agree that no further comment is needed?

We both Love the same God with this different take on the Station of His Messengers. It is great for me to know what you believe, it is great for you to know what I believe.

If this causes disunity, then we both may as well throw away the Love of God because it is of no use to us!

God Bless and Regards Tony
If you proceed to distort the meaning of scripture why do you think yourself immune from criticism? We know that it is the holy spirit Christ is talking about. But are you so willing to throw away your doctrine because it causes division? Do you not have the strength of will to believe and be set upon by enemies? Paul might have been like a gentile to gentiles and a jew to jews, but he never conceded the gospel. Apparently you are more than willing to concede it.
 
Exactly. 2+2=4 is truth. E=mc2 is also truth but does not lessen or negate 2+2=4. The ‘fullness’ of truth will never arrive. There will always be a point ahead, and God will always reveal more and more to us as we have the capacity to understand.
You are missing my point, Nick.

To demonstrate the difference in what I am saying, lets use a real example:.

Christians believe that it is a revealed truth that Christ rose bodily from the grave. We even have witnesses of his bodily resurrection. In other words, it is as true as 2+2=4 as far as a Catholic is concerned.

The Baha’i, on the other hand, do not say that yes, Christ rose bodily from the grave and then go on to proclaim even greater truths. They do not say yes, 2+2=4 and E=mc2. They say no, 2+2 does not equal four; Christ did not rise bodily from the grave. So your argument fails on that basis. And there are innumerable other examples I could give. You do not say “Yes, dear Christian, what you believe is true but I have even greater truths to reveal.” You say “No, dear Christian, what you believe is not true. Let me show you the truth.”

We have the fullness of truth because Truth himself is present in and guides our Church in all things concerning the truth of God. We possess the fullness of the means of salvation because this is the Church that Jesus, the Truth, built and promised to lead into “all truth”. We believe that he kept his promise.
Jesus Himself told His disciples that there were many things He had yet to say, “but you cannot bear them now”.
Yes, this seems to be one of the Baha’i’s favorite passages. Unfortunately for the Baha’i it seems you haven’t read past this verse.

"12“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.” (John 16:12-15)

This is all about Jesus, not some future “manifestation of God”. It is Jesus who sends the Spirit. It is Jesus who will be glorified by the Spirit and it is Jesus, who, through the Spirit will make known the truth.

Well, Jesus did send the Spirit. It happened on Pentecost. The Apostles and disciples were in hiding out of fear for their lives in the upper room with the doors and windows shut and locked. They had just witnessed what had happened to their leader and knew that the same was in store for them. Then something happened:

“When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.” (Acts 2:1-4)

These men, who were cowering in the corner in fear of their lives, immediately began preaching Christ to the crowds, even speaking in languages they did not know. They had each been filled with the Holy Spirit. The Church had been filled with the Holy Spirit and could now bear those things it could not before the Holy Spirit descended. It received the fullness of the truth, the fullness of the means of salvation; the truth concerning Jesus Christ.
 
I kind of like that example I gave. The point being that an outside observer could easily say that the parents changed their minds since they changed the rules.
Well, I don’t know anyone who would assume that because you want your teenage son to be home by midnight that you no longer care if he plays in the street or looks both ways when crossing. :confused:

Once again, however this is a false argument because it is not the argument made when you tell us that God is not a trinity of divine Persons in one Being, that Christ was not resurrected bodily from the grave, that Christ was not begotten, but rather created by the Father. You are not saying that what we believe is true and you just want to build upon that truth. You are saying that we are flat out wrong in the most fundamental doctrines of our faith.
 
God is then the best of plagiarists John 16: 13-15

…13"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15"All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.…

WHEN MAN FORGETS GOD BEGETS 😉

God Bless and Regards Tony
:confused:
 
Believing that there are explanations other than strictly literal ones (like for the Trinity) does not mean they aren’t true, just that we have come to a different understanding based on Baha’u’llah’s explanations.

The spiritual truths and meanings contained in the scriptures are endless.
If the doctrine of the Trinity is true, then anything that conflicts with it (i.e. three divine beings, rather than three divine persons in one Being) must be false. There is no other alternative. Truth cannot conflict with truth. So insofar as the Baha’i understanding corresponds to the Christian understanding we would say it is true. To the degree that it departs from the Christian understanding we would say it is false.

From what I have read, we are miles apart.
 
If you proceed to distort the meaning of scripture why do you think yourself immune from criticism? We know that it is the holy spirit Christ is talking about. But are you so willing to throw away your doctrine because it causes division? Do you not have the strength of will to believe and be set upon by enemies? Paul might have been like a gentile to gentiles and a jew to jews, but he never conceded the gospel. Apparently you are more than willing to concede it.
IgnatianPhilo - A person has to consider that the distortion is based on ones own belief.

Are we directed to Criticise or to Lovingly guide.

The Word of God is never thrown away, but the Word of God, His Word, is gifted to us to Unite in the Love for each other, if we use it contrary to this, then simple deduction would conclude that we are better off not having it if this is the result.

The strength of Faith in Gods Word is apparent dear friend in God, it is not to any man that I am afraid of 😊

The Fear of God in my misuse of His Word, is what sustains an motivates Me.

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
Well, I don’t know anyone who would assume that because you want your teenage son to be home by midnight that you no longer care if he plays in the street or looks both ways when crossing. :confused: .
SteveVH - Still not seeing the point dear friend in God

You have confidence that the previous lessons in life have been learned and implemented into life. One Still cares! In fact the Love has Grown!

You have seen that your Trust has learned the lessons well and that your Trust so Loves you that they will never forget the Teachings.

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
If the doctrine of the Trinity is true, then anything that conflicts with it (i.e. three divine beings, rather than three divine persons in one Being) must be false. There is no other alternative. Truth cannot conflict with truth. So insofar as the Baha’i understanding corresponds to the Christian understanding we would say it is true. To the degree that it departs from the Christian understanding we would say it is false.

From what I have read, we are miles apart.
I think we are one one Heart beat apart, we are oh so close!

Lets again Use the Sun, Rays & light as God, Son & Holy Spirit in conjunction with each other

All these three aspects can be seen as God and to this no Blame can be attributed to this.

The Light is of God, the Rays are of God, The Sun is God.

If there was no Sun there are no Rays or Light, if there is a Sun there are Rays and Light.

The Existence of the Sun is not Dependent on the Rays and the Light, But the Rays and the Light are subject to the Assistance of the Sun.

Now try to Look at the Sun, can a person? No, the rays and the light sustain us, but to face the Sun Directly would result in blindness.

Thus we can Know God by Christ and the Holy Spirit, but we can never look upon God Directly. Christ is thus Not God, but is of God and sustains us.

We are faced with this every day of our lives when we meditate upon the Nature of the Sun.

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
Dear (name removed by moderator) - You suggested you could, I offered for you to show that indeed you could. I now note that you suggest you can not?

If it was impossible then there Would not be A Muslim Faith and there Would not be a Baha’i Faith. Which are both Independent world Religions with New Revelation.

If these Messengers and Words are from God then Christ has told you the actions you must take in relation to the Claims

Any Link posted in previous replies does indeed answer the question previously posed, thus I leave it to you to consider and search of remain as you now beleive.

God Bless your Faith and Life and Regards Tony
 
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I think we are one one Heart beat apart, we are oh so close!

Lets again Use the Sun, Rays & light as God, Son & Holy Spirit in conjunction with each other
Lets not. It is inadequate.
Thus we can Know God by Christ and the Holy Spirit, but we can never look upon God Directly. Christ is thus Not God, but is of God and sustains us.
Case in point. Nick is trying to make the argument that Christian doctrine is true, it is just that there are greater revelations yet to be given by future “manifestations”. Like raising a child and informing him of small truths until he can grasp greater truths. You have just proven my point that this is not the case at all. You are not saying that what we believe is true and now we need to accept a greater truth, you are saying outright that what we believe is false. And this is not some secondary issue. You are saying that the central doctrine of the Christian faith is false; that Jesus is not God. In Nicks analogy, you are saying that we teach our children to play in the street.

Thanks for this. I thought I was going to have to look for an example.
 
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