Believing in the True Jesus - Christians vs Baha'is

[Techno2000]

Saying that Hell is not a smoky place found 3 km below Jesus’ tomb is not mocking the Bible, its mocking a common held belief. Well, not even mocking. Not sure how you define “mockery”, but I rarely, if ever see Baha’is laughing and deriding any belief…



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The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss.

 

[Techno2000]

Why not human error?

If you really believe in the God of the Bible, it should be easy for you to discern this stuff.

 

[Servant19]

The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss.

I still cannot see it as a mockery Techno.

I read all passages in the Bible as a means by which a wayward generation were taught things about God. To depict hell as a physical place found somewhere on earth was necessary at that time. Today, thank the Lord, I understand hell much better than that.

I am not mocking, just presenting a perspective.

Are you therefore saying that given sufficient scientific resources we will eventually be able to put signposts up on the highway directing us to heaven and hell?

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[SteveVH]

So we can establish that what was held to be Truth for 1200 years, was no longer Truth when Jesus came. This is fact dear Steve. Why would this reality be denied?

We can establish no such thing. I have never said that the Abrahamic Covenant was no longer true. God is always faithful and will never break a covenant that he has made. And he will never break the promises made in that covenant to Abraham and his descendants. The Jews are God’s chosen people and will always be his chosen people. Those of us who are Gentiles are grafted into this family of God through Baptism. How can anything established by God become “no longer Truth”?

Again this is Christian understanding, but the evidence presented is contrary to this understanding. There are nearly 2 billion people on earth who state for sure that there IS another.

Do you believe that truth is determined by a vote?

Again we have established that long held “perceived” Truths, at some point in time, become a “not Truth”.

And once again, we have established nothing of the sort. What happened to “Truth is Truth”… and is “unchanging”? What baffles me is that I know you are not a stupid man, yet you fail to see the blatant contradiction in your position. You state that truth is unchanging and then proceed to try and prove just the opposite; that something can be true one day and not true (false) the next. The real problem is that your entire faith structure depends on it.

And I didn’t miss the fact that you attempted to change the slant of the discussion to “perceived” truth, but that is another discussion entirely. We are speaking of objective and revealed truth and whether or not that truth can ever become untrue. Whether or not truth can be “unchanging” and then change. To be honest, this is getting a little absurd.

 

[Servant19]

We can establish no such thing. I have never said that the Abrahamic Covenant was no longer true. God is always faithful and will never break a covenant that he has made. And he will never break the promises made in that covenant to Abraham and his descendants. The Jews are God’s chosen people and will always be his chosen people. Those of us who are Gentiles are grafted into this family of God through Baptism. How can anything established by God become “no longer Truth”?

Do you believe that truth is determined by a vote?

And once again, we have established nothing of the sort. What happened to “Truth is Truth”… and is “unchanging”? What baffles me is that I know you are not a stupid man, yet you fail to see the blatant contradiction in your position. You state that truth is unchanging and then proceed to try and prove just the opposite; that something can be true one day and not true (false) the next. The real problem is that your entire faith structure depends on it.

Steve, you are mixing up your ontology and epistemology.

God gives the truth in its entirety (ontology). How humans interpret that Truth through the power of the Holy Spirit changes from age to age. This is epistemology.

I can turn up for work wearing a brown hat, green shirt with red tie, and blue pants and Nike sneakers. I AM THE WHOLE PICTURE, THE WHOLE TRUTH.

What my work colleagues see and profess to be the picture will all be different. As human beings we derive our perceptions from a higher source. Some is vain imagination and can be discarded, but some of our perceptions tap into the Holy Spirit, because they align with a Revelation which we hold dear and also can empirically be seen as “of benefit” to others. We then categorize these perceptions as Truth, along with the original Revelation.

However when a new Revelation comes along and is still seen to align with everything ever REVEALED, but may differ with the things men had in the past PERCEIVED, then we need to rethink.

Please revisit our dialogue in light of this reality

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[Techno2000]

I still cannot see it as a mockery Techno.

I read all passages in the Bible as a means by which a wayward generation were taught things about God. To depict hell as a physical place found somewhere on earth was necessary at that time. Today, thank the Lord, I understand hell much better than that.

I am not mocking, just presenting a perspective.

Are you therefore saying that given sufficient scientific resources we will eventually be able to put signposts up on the highway directing us to heaven and hell?

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Its funny how the Baha’i faith does not teach of the same Hell as the Catholic faith does, I wonder why.

 

[Techno2000]

Steve, you are mixing up your ontology and epistemology.

God gives the truth in its entirety (ontology). How humans interpret that Truth through the power of the Holy Spirit changes from age to age. This is epistemology.

I can turn up for work wearing a brown hat, green shirt with red tie, and blue pants and Nike sneakers. I AM THE WHOLE PICTURE, THE WHOLE TRUTH.

What my work colleagues see and profess to be the picture will all be different. As human beings we derive our perceptions from a higher source. Some is vain imagination and can be discarded, but some of our perceptions tap into the Holy Spirit, because they align with a Revelation which we hold dear and also can empirically be seen as “of benefit” to others. We then categorize these perceptions as Truth, along with the original Revelation.

However when a new Revelation comes along and is still seen to align with everything ever REVEALED, but may differ with the things men had in the past PERCEIVED, then we need to rethink.

Please revisit our dialogue in light of this reality

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But what if this new Revelation comes from the Devil,oh I forgot you don’t believe in the Devil…priceless .

 

[Techno2000]

But what if this new Revelation comes from the Devil,oh I forgot you don’t believe in the Devil…priceless .

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, you are mixing up your ontology and epistemology.

God gives the truth in its entirety (ontology). How humans interpret that Truth through the power of the Holy Spirit changes from age to age. This is epistemology.

I can turn up for work wearing a brown hat, green shirt with red tie, and blue pants and Nike sneakers. I AM THE WHOLE PICTURE, THE WHOLE TRUTH.

What my work colleagues see and profess to be the picture will all be different. As human beings we derive our perceptions from a higher source. Some is vain imagination and can be discarded, but some of our perceptions tap into the Holy Spirit, because they align with a Revelation which we hold dear and also can empirically be seen as “of benefit” to others. We then categorize these perceptions as Truth, along with the original Revelation.

However when a new Revelation comes along and is still seen to align with everything ever REVEALED, but may differ with the things men had in the past PERCEIVED, then we need to rethink.

Please revisit our dialogue in light of this reality

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Then when you state that the Catholic Church possesses all truth and then deny the most fundamental beliefs of this Church, what you are really saying is that Christ imparted the truth but we just perceived it wrongly. Yes?

When the Apostles testify that Christ rose bodily from the grave and gave example after example of their experience with the risen Lord in order to prove that he really was there, body, blood, soul and divinity, the whole person of Christ, we just misinterpreted this. Instead it was the faith of the people that was resurrected, or a myriad of other inventions, anything but what the Church Christ founded himself teaches. The empty tomb is a ruse. Is this what you believe, Servant?

 

[tonyfish58]

Why not human error?

Oh dear, are you suggesting we take responsibility for our on actions and not blame it on another!

Imagine a world where you can say I should have not done that, ask forgiveness for your error and try better next time. The lack of ability to do this is Real Hell!

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

Oh dear, are you suggesting we take responsibility for our on actions and not blame it on another!

Imagine a world where you can say I should have not done that, ask forgiveness for your error and try better next time. The lack of ability to do this is Real Hell!

It is called Reconciliation and is a sacrament in the Catholic Church. And a wonderful thing happens. Our sins are absolved, we are forgiven and we receive grace to help us do “better next time”. We rest once again in the arms of God, having returned to him who looks down the road waiting for our return and who runs to us at the first glimpse.

 

[tonyfish58]

It is called Reconciliation and is a sacrament in the Catholic Church. And a wonderful thing happens. Our sins are absolved, we are forgiven and we receive grace to help us do “better next time”. We rest once again in the arms of God, having returned to him who looks down the road waiting for our return and who runs to us at the first glimpse.

Mirrors the Baha’i belief of the spiritual aspect exactly dear friend.

Glorified art Thou, O Lord my God! I beseech Thee by Thy Chosen Ones, and by the Bearers of Thy Trust, and by Him Whom Thou hast ordained to be the Seal of Thy Prophets and of Thy Messengers, to let Thy remembrance be my companion, and Thy love my aim, and Thy face my goal, and Thy name my lamp, and Thy wish my desire, and Thy pleasure my delight.

I am a sinner, O my Lord, and Thou art the Ever-Forgiving. As soon as I recognized Thee, I hastened to attain the exalted court of Thy loving-kindness. Forgive me, O my Lord, my sins which have hindered me from walking in the ways of Thy good-pleasure, and from attaining the shores of the ocean of Thy oneness.

There is no one, O my Lord, who can deal bountifully with me to whom I can turn my face, and none who can have compassion on me that I may crave his mercy. Cast me not out, I implore Thee, of the presence of Thy grace, neither do Thou withhold from me the outpourings of Thy generosity and bounty. Ordain for me, O my Lord, what Thou hast ordained for them that love Thee, and write down for me what Thou hast written down for Thy chosen ones. My gaze hath, at all times, been fixed on the horizon of Thy gracious providence, and mine eyes bent upon the court of Thy tender mercies. Do with me as beseemeth Thee. No God is there but Thee, the God of power, the God of glory, Whose help is implored by all men."

(Prayer revealed by Bahá’u’lláh, Prayers and Meditations, p. 29-30)

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

Mirrors the Baha’i belief of the spiritual aspect exactly dear friend.

Glorified art Thou, O Lord my God! I beseech Thee by Thy Chosen Ones, and by the Bearers of Thy Trust, and by Him Whom Thou hast ordained to be the Seal of Thy Prophets and of Thy Messengers, to let Thy remembrance be my companion, and Thy love my aim, and Thy face my goal, and Thy name my lamp, and Thy wish my desire, and Thy pleasure my delight.

I am a sinner, O my Lord, and Thou art the Ever-Forgiving. As soon as I recognized Thee, I hastened to attain the exalted court of Thy loving-kindness. Forgive me, O my Lord, my sins which have hindered me from walking in the ways of Thy good-pleasure, and from attaining the shores of the ocean of Thy oneness.

There is no one, O my Lord, who can deal bountifully with me to whom I can turn my face, and none who can have compassion on me that I may crave his mercy. Cast me not out, I implore Thee, of the presence of Thy grace, neither do Thou withhold from me the outpourings of Thy generosity and bounty. Ordain for me, O my Lord, what Thou hast ordained for them that love Thee, and write down for me what Thou hast written down for Thy chosen ones. My gaze hath, at all times, been fixed on the horizon of Thy gracious providence, and mine eyes bent upon the court of Thy tender mercies. Do with me as beseemeth Thee. No God is there but Thee, the God of power, the God of glory, Whose help is implored by all men."

(Prayer revealed by Bahá’u’lláh, Prayers and Meditations, p. 29-30)

God Bless and Regards Tony

I would have no problem making that prayer my own. Beautiful.

 

[Techno2000]

Mirrors the Baha’i belief of the spiritual aspect exactly dear friend.

Glorified art Thou, O Lord my God! I beseech Thee by Thy Chosen Ones, and by the Bearers of Thy Trust, and by Him Whom Thou hast ordained to be the Seal of Thy Prophets and of Thy Messengers, to let Thy remembrance be my companion, and Thy love my aim, and Thy face my goal, and Thy name my lamp, and Thy wish my desire, and Thy pleasure my delight.

I am a sinner, O my Lord, and Thou art the Ever-Forgiving. As soon as I recognized Thee, I hastened to attain the exalted court of Thy loving-kindness. Forgive me, O my Lord, my sins which have hindered me from walking in the ways of Thy good-pleasure, and from attaining the shores of the ocean of Thy oneness.

There is no one, O my Lord, who can deal bountifully with me to whom I can turn my face, and none who can have compassion on me that I may crave his mercy. Cast me not out, I implore Thee, of the presence of Thy grace, neither do Thou withhold from me the outpourings of Thy generosity and bounty. Ordain for me, O my Lord, what Thou hast ordained for them that love Thee, and write down for me what Thou hast written down for Thy chosen ones. My gaze hath, at all times, been fixed on the horizon of Thy gracious providence, and mine eyes bent upon the court of Thy tender mercies. Do with me as beseemeth Thee. No God is there but Thee, the God of power, the God of glory, Whose help is implored by all men."

(Prayer revealed by Bahá’u’lláh, Prayers and Meditations, p. 29-30)

God Bless and Regards Tony

So why is this prayer necessary since everyone
is going to Heaven anyway?

 

[SteveVH]

So why is this prayer necessary since everyone
is going to Heaven anyway?

Because God’s laws are written on the hearts of all men, and all men know, within their inner core, when they have offended God, regardless of what they profess. It is good that Baha’u’llah acknowledged his sins before God and asked for forgiveness. At the same time, it marks a distinction between Baha’u’llah and Christ, who was without sin.

 

[Techno2000]

Because God’s laws are written on the hearts of all men, and all men know, within their inner core, when they have offended God, regardless of what they profess. It is good that Baha’u’llah acknowledged his sins before God and asked for forgiveness. At the same time, it marks a distinction between Baha’u’llah and Christ, who was without sin.

I see what you’re doing here.

 

[tonyfish58]

Because God’s laws are written on the hearts of all men, and all men know, within their inner core, when they have offended God, regardless of what they profess. It is good that Baha’u’llah acknowledged his sins before God and asked for forgiveness. At the same time, it marks a distinction between Baha’u’llah and Christ, who was without sin.

Or exactly the same as Christ;

Hebrews 5:7In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

Or exactly the same as Christ;

Hebrews 5:7In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. 9And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,.

God Bless and Regards Tony

Not really. Where does this say that Jesus sinned? He suffered, not only physical torture and death, but the sins of the world; the sins of every man who has and will ever live; He who was himself, sinless. And so he cried out to the Father, and then, obedient to the Father’s will, he underwent his passion and death for the salvation of the world. That as a human being he learned obedience does not mean that he was disobedient. The Scriptures are quite clear on this point.

Baha’u’llah on the other hand is also quite clear:

“I am a sinner, O my Lord, and Thou art the Ever-Forgiving. As soon as I recognized Thee, I hastened to attain the exalted court of Thy loving-kindness. Forgive me, O my Lord, my sins which have hindered me from walking in the ways of Thy good-pleasure, and from attaining the shores of the ocean of Thy oneness.”

Like I said, I think it is beautiful and I admire Baha’u’llah for acknowledging this. It really is one of the most inspirational things I have read by him. I am a sinner as well and as I said, I could very well make this my own prayer. I was not trying to play games. It is what it is.

 

[Techno2000]

Not really. Where does this say that Jesus sinned? He suffered, not only physical torture and death, but the sins of the world; the sins of every man who has and will ever live; He who was himself, sinless. And so he cried out to the Father, and then, obedient to the Father’s will, he underwent his passion and death for the salvation of the world. That as a human being he learned obedience does not mean that he was disobedient. The Scriptures are quite clear on this point.

Baha’u’llah on the other hand is also quite clear:

"I am a sinner, O my Lord, and Thou art the Ever-Forgiving. As soon as I recognized Thee, I hastened to attain the exalted court of Thy loving-kindness. Forgive me, O my Lord, my sins which have hindered me from walking in the ways of Thy good-pleasure, and from attaining the shores of the ocean of Thy oneness."

Like I said, I think it is beautiful and I admire Baha’u’llah for acknowledging this. It really is one of the most inspirational things I have read by him. I am a sinner as well and as I said, I could very well make this my own prayer. I was not trying to play games. It is what it is.

No this was just a way Baha’u’llah showed his people how they were to pray to him, so that they may have a better reincarnation.

 

[Servant19]

Not really. Where does this say that Jesus sinned? He suffered, not only physical torture and death, but the sins of the world; the sins of every man who has and will ever live; He who was himself, sinless. And so he cried out to the Father, and then, obedient to the Father’s will, he underwent his passion and death for the salvation of the world. That as a human being he learned obedience does not mean that he was disobedient. The Scriptures are quite clear on this point.

Baha’u’llah on the other hand is also quite clear:

"I am a sinner, O my Lord, and Thou art the Ever-Forgiving. As soon as I recognized Thee, I hastened to attain the exalted court of Thy loving-kindness. Forgive me, O my Lord, my sins which have hindered me from walking in the ways of Thy good-pleasure, and from attaining the shores of the ocean of Thy oneness."

Like I said, I think it is beautiful and I admire Baha’u’llah for acknowledging this. It really is one of the most inspirational things I have read by him. I am a sinner as well and as I said, I could very well make this my own prayer. I was not trying to play games. It is what it is.

Two points to raise here Steve, and I honour your purity to recognize this prayer as being beautiful (All Baha’is would agree)

1. If Jesus, according to Paul, was to be “saved from death” and was subject to “suffering” then was He not also a sinner? (and I mean this with no disrespect, because I do believe that Jesus was sinless, but I do not believe physical death to be a sin, but Christianity does…)
2. I would propose a perspective to consider is that the Manifestation of God has a human and a Divine aspect. Baha’u’llah often, when revealing a prayer revealed FOR man, not devoid of His Divine aspect. Jesus often offered up prayers to God, but how can God pray to Himself? It is the human aspect that reveals this prayer.

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