Believing in the True Jesus - Christians vs Baha'is

  • Thread starter Thread starter GuyNextDoor
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Servant19 said:
Two points to raise here Steve, and I honour your purity to recognize this prayer as being beautiful 🙂 (All Baha’is would agree)
  1. If Jesus, according to Paul, was to be “saved from death” and was subject to “suffering” then was He not also a sinner? (and I mean this with no disrespect, because I do believe that Jesus was sinless, but I do not believe physical death to be a sin, but Christianity does…)
  2. I would propose a perspective to consider is that the Manifestation of God has a human and a Divine aspect. Baha’u’llah often, when revealing a prayer revealed FOR man, not devoid of His Divine aspect. Jesus often offered up prayers to God, but how can God pray to Himself? It is the human aspect that reveals this prayer.
.
Click to expand...
Paul was talking about this : And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto you; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what you will.
 
SteveVH said:
Then when you state that the Catholic Church possesses all truth and then deny the most fundamental beliefs of this Church, what you are really saying is that Christ imparted the truth but we just perceived it wrongly. Yes?

When the Apostles testify that Christ rose bodily from the grave and gave example after example of their experience with the risen Lord in order to prove that he really was there, body, blood, soul and divinity, the whole person of Christ, we just misinterpreted this. Instead it was the faith of the people that was resurrected, or a myriad of other inventions, anything but what the Church Christ founded himself teaches. The empty tomb is a ruse. Is this what you believe, Servant?
Click to expand...
No I am not saying that it was perceived wrongly. It was perceived correctly for the purpose that it was intended.

Let me try a different approach.

The outcome is salvation. How will we achieve salvation?
Through adhering to the Will of the Father and by immersing ourselves in the new Covenant which is to put Jesus on our hearts and to love our neighbor and God with all our heart and with all our soul. This is the outcome desired by the Holy Spirit in the Christian Dispensation.

How does the Holy Spirit go about doing this? Let us take the “Jesus is God” concept.

In an environment where most were worshiping Roman Gods, it is important that the Divine aspect of Jesus is emphasized. In the Gentile-rich society, the Holy Spirit would fail if Jesus was spoken of as a human being, even if He was a special one at that. As a human he is not worthy of worship next to Jupiter. Justin Martyr was the chief apologist for this manifestation of the Holy Spirit. We see in His First Apology ch. 21 and 22 where He is putting Jesus side by side to Jupiter as a rationale for not persecuting Christians. The Holy Spirit established the Divine aspect of Jesus as Truth!

WERE THIS NOT TO BE EMPHASIZED, the Holy Spirit and the Christian Dispensation would have failed and the outcome (discussed above) would not be established.

Now, let us also look at the “physical resurrection” concept too.

How does the Holy Spirit go about establishing the new Covenant amongst the Jewish community, when it is clearly stated in Deuteronomy that cursed is anyone who hangs from a tree. We all know that with Jesus’ crucifixion went away any claim to Divinity amongst the Jewish hierarchical thought.

I am not saying that the physical resurrection stories are fabrications, but let us be honest, there is an argument for the non-physical resurrection in the Letters of Paul, but what was emphasised? A physical resurrection. This was critical at the time to achieve the desired outcome of bringing in all towards the establishment of the new Covenant.

The truth is contained in the Scripture and I will be honest, I take Paul’s and Peter’s Letters over Sacred Tradition, and when we read their Letters, we see a significant argument for a non-physical resurrection, but what did the Holy Spirit establish as teaching? A physical resurrection. Why? Because it established the new Covenant for all to progress, a wayward generation progressed towards etching Jesus on their hearts, and a spiritual emphasis to life was commenced.

There is a difference Steve between something that is “not false” and “absolute Truth”
The Holy Spirit establishes the “not false” to elevate humanity towards a closer relationship with God.

This is my perspective, having studied the Baha’i Writings and the Christian Scriptures over the years.

.
 
Techno2000 said:
Paul was talking about this : And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto you; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what you will.
Click to expand...
Exactly! 👍

Sometimes, Jesus spoke from His human aspect (the Father is greater than I), and sometimes Jesus spoke from His Divine aspect (the Father and I are one).

Baha’u’llah was no different at all. The prayers He revealed were for us to say, and for His perishable, human aspect to reveal.

.
 
Servant19 said:
Exactly! 👍

Sometimes, Jesus spoke from His human aspect (the Father is greater than I), and sometimes Jesus spoke from His Divine aspect (the Father and I are one).

Baha’u’llah was no different at all. The prayers He revealed were for us to say, and for His perishable, human aspect to reveal.

.
Click to expand...
This is Exactly what I thought you was going to say ! 😃
 
Servant19 said:
Let’s party!!
Code: 
:egyptian:                                     .                           . 	:egyptian:

                                       . 	:egyptian:
.
Click to expand...
(Baha’u’llah was no different at all. The prayers He revealed were for us to say, and for His perishable, human aspect to reveal.)

So, it was just Baha’u’llah’s perishable, human aspect that sinned and his spirit did not ?
 
Techno2000 said:
(Baha’u’llah was no different at all. The prayers He revealed were for us to say, and for His perishable, human aspect to reveal.)

So, it was just Baha’u’llah’s perishable, human aspect that sinned and his spirit did not ?
Click to expand...
Baha’is believe Baha’u’llah was sinless. Baha’is do not believe physical death is a consequence of sin. Baha’is believe His physical body was perishable, but His imperishable spiritual body is very well and truly alive to this day and for eternity. Baha’ullah spoke to Moses on Sinai and it was Baha’u’llah’s voice that Jesus heard when His spirit was given up when He ascended to heaven.

.
 
Servant19 said:
Baha’is believe Baha’u’llah was sinless. Baha’is do not believe physical death is a consequence of sin. Baha’is believe His physical body was perishable, but His imperishable spiritual body is very well and truly alive to this day and for eternity. Baha’ullah spoke to Moses on Sinai and it was Baha’u’llah’s voice that Jesus heard when His spirit was given up when He ascended to heaven.

.
Click to expand...
Its worst than I thought. :ouch: :ouch: :ouch:
 
SteveVH said:
Now, I notice that you have avoided my Post Nos. 666 through 672 in which I took the time to answer each and every question you asked in a previous post. Please return the favor. I am very interested in your answers.
Click to expand...
Hi there Steve, looking back, I am pretty sure that my post #756 address all the questions you posed in the previous posts. If not please advise of what you wish to discuss more deeply and I am happy to explore further 🙂

.
 
Servant19 said:
No Bahai would ever say that Jesus spiritually died dear Michael

Bahais fully and without hesitation endorse Peters words calling Jesus a “Life-giving Spirit” after His resurrection

🙂

.
Click to expand...
Non sequitur. Jesus physically died and rose from the dead. He ascended into heaven. Baha’u’llah died and his body is in a shrine in Israel. Do you likewise endorse Peter’s admonition to be repent and be baptized? What about these words of Peter from 1 Peter 1:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy hath regenerated us unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
Click to expand...
The grass is withered, and the flower thereof is fallen away. But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel hath been preached unto you.
Click to expand...
But you would say "No dear Peter, the word of the Lord endureth only until Baha’u’llah says otherwise.
 
Michael1978 said:
Non sequitur. Jesus physically died and rose from the dead. He ascended into heaven. Baha’u’llah died and his body is in a shrine in Israel. Do you likewise endorse Peter’s admonition to be repent and be baptized? What about these words of Peter from 1 Peter 1:

But you would say "No dear Peter, the word of the Lord endureth only until Baha’u’llah says otherwise.
Click to expand...
The Word of the Lord is forever and eternal.

We are the ones that change dear Michael 🙂

That’s why you are most likely not circumcised.

.
 
Servant19 said:
The Word of the Lord is forever and eternal.

We are the ones that change dear Michael 🙂

That’s why you are most likely not circumcised.

.
Click to expand...
Another non sequitur. People do change, the word of The Lord does not. Jesus came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. Do you deny Peter’s charge to repent and be baptized? Do you deny Jesus’ words that He is the way, the truth and the life? That no one comes to the Father but through Him?
 
Apostles Creed
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried; He descended into hell; the third day He arose again from the dead; He ascended into Heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Holy Catholic Church, the Communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.
 
if Jesus’ Body was not resurrected, then death was not defeated and we are still subject to it.

that is the conclusion that must be drawn from the misinterpretations of islam and bahaism.

for the Christian, death has been defeated and the evidence is the Resurrection of Jesus’ physical body.

through Jesus Christ, all men receive the gift of salvation and the promise of eternal life. all that remains for every human person is to either accept that gift and that promise or to not accept it. a human being accepts that gift by professing in his or her heart faith in Jesus.

I find it puzzling that others would believe that God wanted more for His creatures than to be with Him for all eternity.

because of the existence of so many men who claim we need more than Jesus in our lives to guide our souls, I think it is reasonable to question both the knowledge of such men and the motivations of such men (men who teach that Jesus is not enough).
 
eddie_too said:
if Jesus’ Body was not resurrected, then death was not defeated and we are still subject to it.

that is the conclusion that must be drawn from the misinterpretations of islam and bahaism.

for the Christian, death has been defeated and the evidence is the Resurrection of Jesus’ physical body.

through Jesus Christ, all men receive the gift of salvation and the promise of eternal life. all that remains for every human person is to either accept that gift and that promise or to not accept it. a human being accepts that gift by professing in his or her heart faith in Jesus.

I find it puzzling that others would believe that God wanted more for His creatures than to be with Him for all eternity.

because of the existence of so many men who claim we need more than Jesus in our lives to guide our souls, I think it is reasonable to question both the knowledge of such men and the motivations of such men (men who teach that Jesus is not enough).
Click to expand...
Jesus had to reincarnate himself into Baha’u’llah to usher in the new technologies that were to bring peace and harmony to Mankind.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top