Believing in the True Jesus - Christians vs Baha'is

[Servant19]

Amen!!!

Amen indeed dear angel of Light!!

It’s great to see you posting here again dear brother

.

 

[Techno2000]

Baha’u’llah… The God that nobody has ever heard of.

 

[Servant19]

Baha’u’llah… The God that nobody has ever heard of.

It’s the year 32AD - Jesus, the God of a few fishermen.

Really, it’s easy to fall through the net of nobility, uprightness and righteousness

You are in my prayers

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[meltzerboy]

If this is not Christian dogma then it contradicts Peter:

2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory"

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I am certainly no scholar, especially of the New Testament! And I am not here to defend Christian dogma. However, I can point out that the dialogue between the Father and the Son is one of the mysteries of Christian faith. But it is not meant, according to the Church, to suggest that G-d and Jesus, as well as the Holy Spirit, are separate entities. It is somewhat misleading, even if not intentional, to pull out individual verses or passages from the Bible and found one’s viewpoint of a whole religious teaching on them. This has been done often enough with regard to Judaism as I am sure it has, as well, with the Baha’i faith. As I interpret the Trinity, insofar as any human can, the three Persons of G-d are coequal and constitute one G-d who has three distinct roles. It is not that G-d is dividing Himself into three parts, but rather performing different functions. The torch analogy, consisting of a single flame generated by three distinct flames, is one way of attempting to understand the Trinitarian G-d.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

Baha’u’llah… The God that nobody has ever heard of.

I’ve heard of Him and He has totally changed my life for the better. God bless.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

It is not that G-d is dividing Himself into three parts, but rather performing different functions.

I’m no expert but I think you’re describing modalism, which is a heresy in the Christian Church.

 

[Michael1978]

I’ve heard of Him and He has totally changed my life for the better. God bless.

You believe he is a god?

 

[SteveVH]

…This is why all the above acts of repentance, consecration and purification are true, because within the realm of spirit, a single Truth can find a myriad expressions in this world of multiplicity.

Circumcision and baptism are both true, but the particular expressions is no longer required when Jesus came (in regards to circumcision) and when Baha’u’llah came (in regards to baptism by water)

lol. Servant, you are moving the goal posts once again. Realizing that your statements are nonsensical and contradictory, you have now shifted from “Truth is Truth and is unchanging, except when it changes” mode, to: “it is the expression of truth that changes”. Not at all what you were saying before. I suppose some progress has been made in that you have at least implicitly acknowledged the fallacy of your philosophy.

Not at all Steve. It requires a new mindset to be adopted. If you cannot understand the underlying Truth enshrined in the above example where circumcision has progressed to daily purification acts for the spirit of man, then its unfortunate. I am sincerely trying to help you.

If I ever feel I need your help in my spiritual journey, Servant, I’ll let you know. You live in a world of shades of grey and changing shapes where truth is simply in the eye of the beholder. You live in a world where truth is here one day and gone the next. You live in a world of utter contradiction. So thanks for your offer to help, but no thank you. My path is very clear to me.

 

[Sam]

Baha’u’llah… The God that nobody has ever heard of.

Hi Techno! Thank you for your post. You raise a very good point.

On your suggestion that Baha’u’llah claims to be God, I realise that it can certainly seem that way. Like Jesus, though, Baha’u’llah makes no claims to literally be God.

As far as His being unknown goes, you’re right and that’s exactly as Jesus said He would return: incognito: as “a thief in the night”, hidden in “the clouds of heaven”; i.e. unknown to the peoples of the world.

“Watch therefore,” He said. “for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.” Matthew [24:42], “…in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.” - Matthew [24:44].

It makes sense then, don’t you think, that at the time of His coming, He would indeed be unknown.

Okay, to be fair, however, the Book of Revelation tells us that “All eyes shall see Him.” How do we reconcile these two seemingly contradictory prophecies (that He would come as a thief and that all eyes shall see Him)?

Well, the operative term here is ‘shall’, i.e. in time - at a future date. So at first, His coming would be unknown (cf: “Behold He cometh with clouds”), but in time, all the peoples of the world will recognise Him. This resolves the paradox.

And indeed today, 151 years after His coming, over 7 million pairs of eyes (the number of followers of the Baha’i Faith) have now recognised Him. It’s only a matter of time then before the prophecy in Revelation is fully fulfilled.

 

[SteveVH]

I am certainly no scholar, especially of the New Testament! And I am not here to defend Christian dogma. However, I can point out that the dialogue between the Father and the Son is one of the mysteries of Christian faith. But it is not meant, according to the Church, to suggest that G-d and Jesus, as well as the Holy Spirit, are separate entities. It is somewhat misleading, even if not intentional, to pull out individual verses or passages from the Bible and found one’s viewpoint of a whole religious teaching on them. This has been done often enough with regard to Judaism as I am sure it has, as well, with the Baha’i faith. As I interpret the Trinity, insofar as any human can, the three Persons of G-d are coequal and constitute one G-d who has three distinct roles. It is not that G-d is dividing Himself into three parts, but rather performing different functions. The torch analogy, consisting of a single flame generated by three distinct flames, is one way of attempting to understand the Trinitarian G-d.

I appreciate your thoughts, meltzerboy. You are correct that there is no division within God. He is one, divine Being. The Christian position regarding the Trinity is that the only distinction between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one of relationship, not role. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit do not act independently from each other. Where the Father is, there also are the Son and Holy Spirit. Where the Son is, there are the Father and the Holy Spirit and where the Holy Spirit is, there are the Father and the Son. That is why the Son says that He can do nothing apart from the Father. He cannot because they are one, with one divine will.

As far as a physical analogy of the Trinity, I have never seen one that works, completely. And this is to be expected. God is eternally beyond his creation in every way. There really is nothing we can compare.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

You believe he is a god?

No, I believe He is a Manifestation of God.

 

[Servant19]

I am certainly no scholar, especially of the New Testament! And I am not here to defend Christian dogma. However, I can point out that the dialogue between the Father and the Son is one of the mysteries of Christian faith. But it is not meant, according to the Church, to suggest that G-d and Jesus, as well as the Holy Spirit, are separate entities. It is somewhat misleading, even if not intentional, to pull out individual verses or passages from the Bible and found one’s viewpoint of a whole religious teaching on them. This has been done often enough with regard to Judaism as I am sure it has, as well, with the Baha’i faith. As I interpret the Trinity, insofar as any human can, the three Persons of G-d are coequal and constitute one G-d who has three distinct roles. It is not that G-d is dividing Himself into three parts, but rather performing different functions. The torch analogy, consisting of a single flame generated by three distinct flames, is one way of attempting to understand the Trinitarian G-d.

I appreciate where you are coming from meltzerboy

I, however disagree that one can find passages in the Baha’i Writings that contradict the Baha’i teachings.

The Baha’i Writings are there for all to explore study and discern. It is not a religion of orthodoxy, and so there are Baha’is who believe Baha’u’llah is a Prophet of God, those that believe He is God, and in all reality it does not matter.

We all are united in our worship of Baha’u’llah, and work within His Mighty Covenant towards a common purpose and a common goal.

When religion starts to become extremely orthodox and puts beliefs into its adherents heads without any pause for explanation or clarification it becomes subject to disillusionment for many. It is for this reason that I will not get convincing answers to questions such as “Why would Paul say that Jesus had a God?”, and similar contradictions, one of which I pointed out to you above.

I find it an amazing feat of the Holy Spirit to have “ten Baha’is” (as someone else was mentioning earlier on this thread) here all having slightly differing understandings of the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, yet are completely united in their work for the Lord. One common purpose, one Universal Cause, one Common Faith.

We live in a wonderful age where knowledge covers the earth like an ocean, and we can all tap into it, and using our God-given talents and capacities study the Word of God and with sincerity of heart, discuss the meaning with our fellow brothers and sisters, adding richness and depth to our experience with the Word, thereby resulting in an ever-enriching relationship and spiritual understanding with our Lord.

This is the essence of what it means to be a Bahai.

As the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith so eloquently put it:

To strive to obtain a more adequate understanding of the significance of Bahá’u’lláh’s stupendous Revelation must, it is my unalterable conviction, remain the first obligation and the object of the constant endeavor of each one of its loyal adherents. An exact and thorough comprehension of so vast a system, so sublime a revelation, so sacred a trust, is for obvious reasons beyond the reach and ken of our finite minds. We can, however, and it is our bounden duty to seek to derive fresh inspiration and added sustenance as we labor for the propagation of His Faith through a clearer apprehension of the truths it enshrines and the principles on which it is based.

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[Michael1978]

No, I believe He is a Manifestation of God.

Mirzā Ghulām Ahmad, died 1908:

The task for which God has appointed me is that I should remove the malaise that afflicts the relationship between God and His creatures and restore the relationship of love and sincerity between them. Through the proclamation of truth and by putting an end to religious conflicts, I should bring about peace and manifest the Divine verities that have become hidden from the eyes of the world. I am called upon to demonstrate spirituality which lies buried under egoistic darkness. It is for me to demonstrate by practice, and not by words alone, the Divine powers which penetrate into a human being and are manifested through prayer or attention. Above all, it is my task to re-establish in people’s hearts the eternal plant of the pure and shining Unity of God which is free from every impurity of polytheism, and which has now completely disappeared. All this will be accomplished, not through my power, but through the power of the Almighty God, Who is the God of heaven and earth.

The Messiah, son of Mary, Prophet of Allah, had died and thou hast come in accordance with the promise.

Sun Myung Moon, died 2012:

I did not come here to repeat what you already know. I have come to reveal something new. I want to share with you a new revelation from God.

In a way then, the Divine Principle, this new revelation, is the documentary of my life. It is my own life experience. The Divine Principle is in me, and I am in the Divine Principle.

Where did you set your standard of faith? Do you desire the greatest blessing? I know you do. Are you willing to take up the cross? Do you know what Jesus said? He said, “He who loves his mother, his father, his wife, his brothers and sisters, his children more than me is not worthy of me. To come with me, you must bear your own cross.” Jesus Christ, of course, was a pathfinder. He opened up the territory, the new way. In order to be adopted as a true son and daughter of God, those who followed his path must walk the same way. The time has come when the tears of civilized people are necessary. The tears of the millionaire are needed, The tears of the men of talent, the men of knowledge are needed. And their sweat. And even their blood. This is the only way we can expedite the restoration of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Are these men not also manifestations of God?

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

Mirzā Ghulām Ahmad, died 1908:

Sun Myung Moon, died 2012:

Are these men not also manifestations of God?

Nope, they are not Manifestations of God. Baha’u’llah told us that it would be at least a thousand years before the next Manifestation appears. These men do not meet the criteria. Regardless, they didn’t change my life like Baha’u’llah did. I speak of something very personal here. I don’t know where I’d be if I had not found Baha’u’llah and His all embracing love. I love Baha’u’llah with all my heart. You could say I had a born again experience. I could never reject Baha’u’llah. He is my life. I am His. He is my lord. The way you feel about Jesus Christ is how I feel about my Beloved.

 

[Michael1978]

Nope, they are not Manifestations of God. Baha’u’llah told us that it would be at least a thousand years before the next Manifestation appears. These men do not meet the criteria. Regardless, they didn’t change my life like Baha’u’llah did. I speak of something very personal here. I don’t know where I’d be if I had not found Baha’u’llah and His all embracing love. I love Baha’u’llah with all my heart. You could say I had a born again experience. I could never reject Baha’u’llah. He is my life. I am His. He is my lord. The way you feel about Jesus Christ is how I feel about my Beloved.

Fair enough. But who are you to say that God has not manifested himself through these other men? After all, Jesus said he is the alpha and the omega, the first and last, the beginning and the end. Jesus also said the the is the way, the truth and the life and that no man comes to the father but through him. Obviously God changed his mind and manifested himself through Baha’u’llah regardless of previously revealed truths through Jesus. I think it would be blasphemous for you to question God’s ability to manifest himself through other individuals any time that he chooses to do so. Do you know the mind of God?

 

[Techno2000]

It’s the year 32AD - Jesus, the God of a few fishermen.

Really, it’s easy to fall through the net of nobility, uprightness and righteousness

You are in my prayers

.

 

[Techno2000]

Nope, they are not Manifestations of God. Baha’u’llah told us that it would be at least a thousand years before the next Manifestation appears. These men do not meet the criteria. Regardless, they didn’t change my life like Baha’u’llah did. I speak of something very personal here. I don’t know where I’d be if I had not found Baha’u’llah and His all embracing love. I love Baha’u’llah with all my heart. You could say I had a born again experience. I could never reject Baha’u’llah. He is my life. I am His. He is my lord. The way you feel about Jesus Christ is how I feel about my Beloved.

So why you call yourself " ChristIsTheWay" instead of" Baha’u’llah is the Way" ?

 

[Techno2000]

No, I believe He is a Manifestation of God.

Can you give us details about this, that is very vague.

 

[Techno2000]

Hi Techno! Thank you for your post. You raise a very good point.

On your suggestion that Baha’u’llah claims to be God, I realise that it can certainly seem that way. Like Jesus, though, Baha’u’llah makes no claims to literally be God.

As far as His being unknown goes, you’re right and that’s exactly as Jesus said He would return: incognito: as “a thief in the night”, hidden in “the clouds of heaven”; i.e. unknown to the peoples of the world.

“Watch therefore,” He said. “for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.” Matthew [24:42], “…in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.” - Matthew [24:44].

It makes sense then, don’t you think, that at the time of His coming, He would indeed be unknown.

Okay, to be fair, however, the Book of Revelation tells us that “All eyes shall see Him.” How do we reconcile these two seemingly contradictory prophecies (that He would come as a thief and that all eyes shall see Him)?

Well, the operative term here is ‘shall’, i.e. in time - at a future date. So at first, His coming would be unknown (cf: “Behold He cometh with clouds”), but in time, all the peoples of the world will recognise Him. This resolves the paradox.

And indeed today, 151 years after His coming, over 7 million pairs of eyes (the number of followers of the Baha’i Faith) have now recognised Him. It’s only a matter of time then before the prophecy in Revelation is fully fulfilled.

All of this is about Jesus coming back at the End of the world “The last Judgement”. https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/...kyiK-Zz9LopdjxzI6FEQRDRnqcRSkfIdp51WuGln8BzZA

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

Fair enough. But who are you to say that God has not manifested himself through these other men? After all, Jesus said he is the alpha and the omega, the first and last, the beginning and the end. Jesus also said the the is the way, the truth and the life and that no man comes to the father but through him. Obviously God changed his mind and manifested himself through Baha’u’llah regardless of previously revealed truths through Jesus. I think it would be blasphemous for you to question God’s ability to manifest himself through other individuals any time that he chooses to do so. Do you know the mind of God?

Do you know the mind of God? After all, you’re saying revelation ended with Jesus and that the Second Coming is a literal, physical return of Jesus Christ to this Earth. How do you know these things? Somewhere along the line, someone is claiming to know what God has said and done, what is His mind and will.

As for God changing His mind, that is not the case. When Jesus says He is the first and the last, alpha and omega, the only way to God, etc, it is the divine Logos speaking through Christ. This Logos is eternal and without beginning or end. This same divine Logos was present in Baha’u’llah, making Him the return of Christ.

So why you call yourself " ChristIsTheWay" instead of" Baha’u’llah is the Way" ?

Because when I started on this forum, I was a devout Catholic. I became Baha’i last year. My name doesn’t trouble me, though. Another name for the divine Logos is Christ or the Christ Spirit.

Can you give us details about this, that is very vague.

See here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifestation_of_God