Belleville bishop removes pastor for improvising prayers

[Richard_Hughes]

Personally, I love the hybrid, Latin-English Mass I attend. The common prayers are in Latin (Gloria, Kyrie-Greek, Credo, Sanctus, Pater Noster, Agnus Dei), and the rest is in English…music is traditional, including Gregorian chant for the offeratory and first Communion “hymn.” The only changes I would prefer are the consecration and other prayers in Latin, with the readings, Gospel and homily in English, and the priest facing East during the consecration. That would be my perfect Mass.

Aloha, rlg94086:

To each her/his own, and that includes Fr. Rowe? Seriously, what do you see in Latin that makes it your choice for worship? It was replaced with the vernacular over 40 years ago, thanks to the Spirit of Jesus, through our authentic Catholic leaders in Rome. Jesus spoke Aramaic, as you know, and in some places, Christians still worship in their language, Aramaic. So what makes Latin attractive for you? Remember, it was the official language of the ancient Roman Empire and its brutal pagan soldiers who tortured and executed our Lord and God, the Christ, Jesus!

I’m in the choir, and when we rarely sing hymns in Latin, I have trouble with the pronunciation. So I sing along and praise our Lord in tongues, the language of the Holy Spirit. (The Catholic Encyclopedia refers to singing in tongues as “jubilation.”) Amazingly, all these years, no one (not even the other choir members, nor our music-ministry master) has ever realized that I was singing jubilation, the language of the Spirit! They must hear me in Latin. Tongues, and the ability to interpret tongues, is NORMAL Christianity.

We Catholic Christians don’t have to be in communion with the Roman Empire of the past and its language, so as to be in FULL communion with the holy Spirit of Christ Jesus and St. Peter, His servant. So why do some Catholics strive to keep Latin (a dead language) alive at Mass? Some become emotionally protective about Latin. (As you may experience in this Thread.) I don’t understand why.

I could be wrong, but I sense that use of Latin may help to reinforce some “old fashion” Catholics’ feelings of security, if not feelings of validity, to distinguish themselves from all the other Christians out their (about one-half of the Christians living in the world today, and gaining!).

Sorry, but Latin, the language of an ancient and brutal Roman Empire, leaves me cold. I know a few Catholics who like Latin because it helps them to “feel more holy,” and that’s okay. Nothing wrong with that if it helps to brings them into a true and personal relationship with Christ Jesus. But when I hear Latin, my mind flashes back to the evil Romans of old, the brutal pagan crucifiers of Christ Jesus. I have forgiven them, long ago, but when I hear their language in our place of worship, it is hard to forget. We don’t have to identify ourselves with the pagan Romans of old, I do believe.

Fr. Rowe liked diversity, and there IS diversity in the Catholic (universal) Church, and for that I truly thank God! But Father went about it the wrong way, we all agree to that. On the other hand, worshiping in Latin/English is a personal preference and a diverse form of worship, but it is still allowed. (Until further notice?)

Fr. Rowe might like to hear this: One of my approved preferences is to sing certain hymns in Hawaiian first (for Hawaii people), then the same verses in English (for Hawaii people and their visitors). For example, we sing How Great Thou Art, first in Hawaiian, then in English, and it is awesome. I experience the presence of the Holy Spirit, just by singing the hymn.

I’m asking a favor of the members of our music ministry (all ministry-oriented, charismatic-types who are open to the Holy Spirit and His extraordinary gifts — all of the charisms). Namely, sing How Great Thou Art (first in Hawaiian, then in English) at the Eucharist to be held for my family and me after I have departed on my final voyage. “Oh Lord my God! When I in awe-some won-der, consider all the works thy hands have made, I see the stars, I hear the roll-ing thunder, thy pow’r through-out the u-ni-verse displayed; Then sings my soul (E MELE AU!), my Savior God to thee (I KAHO’O LAE); How great thou art, how great thou art! (HE-NANI NO, HE-NANI NO!)… Teach it to your little children; they will love it.

It’s puzzling to think that such a beautiful hymn could not be sung during the Eucharist (either in English or Hawaiian) when I first asked to become a Catholic Christian as a young lad. The song was not approved; it was written by a Protestant. We may now sing it; one step by mankind, one leap for our precious Catholic Church (the People of God, the Body of Christ).

Here is a question that is right on topic for this CAF Thread: Would Fr. Rowe have had the right to celebrate Mass with a MIXTURE of English and Latin? Or, English and Aramaic for example, to please Aramaic speaking visitors, the Spirit of Jesus included? Would the bishop have phoned Fr. Rowe and said, “Bill, STOP IT!”? Your thoughts.

I sense that we all need to be cautious, so as not to find ourselves “worshiping at the feet” of the Institutional Dimension of the Catholic Church, which, along with the laity, is to SERVE the Charismatic Dimension of the Church.

By the way, why face East during the consecration? The holy Spirit of Christ Jesus is right there when the faithful gather in one place to celebrate the Eucharist. (East is where Mecca is located…!) Jesus is right there with us during the Eucharist, no matter which way we, and/or the priests, face. Amen?

Peace,
Richard

 

[Elizium23]

Richard, you are going far off topic and displaying your disobedience to the pastoral and teaching decisions of Rome. If you would take the time to read Church documents, you would see why the Latin language and facing East and Gregorian chant of the propers of the Mass and the music of the organ and the actual texts of the Mass are to be upheld, treasured and cherished.

While you may believe that the Holy Spirit guides you in whatever worship style you prefer, the Holy Spirit indeed guides His Church, in a very special way, in preserving the patrimony and tradition of authentic liturgical worship. It is a sad reality that those who cling to certain dissenting traditions within the Church say that these things I mentioned are old-fashioned, outdated, not worthy of preserving anymore.

It wasn’t entirely Fr. Rowe’s fault that his parishioners were cheated of right liturgy. His former bishop(s) were not strict enough to rein him in previously, and sadly did not recognize the grave abuses being made there. Furthermore, we saw in the videos how his parishioners cooperated in the abuse, at least one of them, knowingly and willingly. Certainly we can’t blame the school children for participating in liturgies as they were doing so out of a spirit of obedience to their elders, but these parishioners who profess to love their priest so much should have been ashamed of themselves to allow these non-liturgies to go on!

And to answer your question, yes certainly, any priest should be commended for his effort to mix Latin into the prayers of the Mass. I am not so sure of the point you are trying to make regarding Aramaic. It is not really a vernacular and not the official language of the Latin Church, although it is preserved by Syriac-rite Eastern Churches. It would not be likely that Aramaic-speaking Catholics would visit his parish, but if they did, they would likely be offended by the atmosphere of disobedience there anyway.

 

[pnewton]

Wow! If the fruit of do-your-own-thang Catholicism is such poor catechesis, no wonder Fr. Rowe had to be removed. I think Richards understanding of the faith, the workings of the Holy Spirit, and the history of the Church is interesting and creative to say the least. I would love to address these in the appropriate forum and thread. We should try to stick with the rules we agree to here and not presume to ramble whever the “spirit” leads.

 

[Corki]

Richard,

Considering you came onto this thread to scold all of us, you might want to dial back some of your pronouncement, or at least check them for accuracy.

Aloha, rlg94086:

To each her/his own, and that includes Fr. Rowe?

Wrong. No matter what language or combination of languages a priest uses to say Mass, he is required to use the approved texts.

Seriously, what do you see in Latin that makes it your choice for worship? It was replaced with the vernacular over 40 years ago, thanks to the Spirit of Jesus, through our authentic Catholic leaders in Rome.

Latin has never been replaced for Mass. Vatican II and several documents since have specifically demanded that Latin be retained.

So what makes Latin attractive for you? Remember, it was the official language of the ancient Roman Empire and its brutal pagan soldiers who tortured and executed our Lord and God, the Christ, Jesus!

It was also the language of St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas and every Pope. And it’s the official language of Holy Mother Church. Why would it not be attractive?

I’m in the choir, and when we rarely sing hymns in Latin, I have trouble with the pronunciation.

That is sad since Catholics should know enough Latin, in pronounciation if not word-for-word understanding to follow the Mass.

So I sing along and praise our Lord in tongues, the language of the Holy Spirit. (The Catholic Encyclopedia refers to singing in tongues as “jubilation.”)

If you can’t sing the music the choir is singing, maybe choir is not the place for you.

Amazingly, all these years, no one (not even the other choir members, nor our music-ministry master) has ever realized that I was singing jubilation, the language of the Spirit!

Your source for this claim?

They must hear me in Latin. Tongues, and the ability to interpret tongues, is NORMAL Christianity.

Interpreting tongues IS a gift of the Holy Spirit. Is is a gift that is given for the good of the assembly. If they aren’t interpreting your speaking in tongues to the rest of the assembly, it isn’t normal Christianity.

We Catholic Christians don’t have to be in communion with the Roman Empire of the past and its language, so as to be in FULL communion with the holy Spirit of Christ Jesus and St. Peter, His servant.

Being in communion with the Church and her language has nothing to do with joining to the Roman Empire.

So why do some Catholics strive to keep Latin (a dead language) alive at Mass?

Obedience?

Some become emotionally protective about Latin. (As you may experience in this Thread.) I don’t understand why.

Yes, we should all be emotionally protective about what the Church tells us to preserve.

I could be wrong, but I sense that use of Latin may help to reinforce some “old fashion” Catholics’ feelings of security, if not feelings of validity, to distinguish themselves from all the other Christians out their (about one-half of the Christians living in the world today, and gaining!).

Yes, I think you are wrong.

Sorry, but Latin, the language of an ancient and brutal Roman Empire, leaves me cold.

Your loss.

I know a few Catholics who like Latin because it helps them to “feel more holy,” and that’s okay.

Actually, that would NOT be ok, if it’s in the context of Mass.

Nothing wrong with that if it helps to brings them into a true and personal relationship with Christ Jesus. But when I hear Latin, my mind flashes back to the evil Romans of old, the brutal pagan crucifiers of Christ Jesus.

Latin has been the language of the Church for almost.2000 years and you can only think of three days?

I have forgiven them, long ago, but when I hear their language in our place of worship, it is hard to forget. We don’t have to identify ourselves with the pagan Romans of old, I do believe

It’s not “their” language. It’s OUR language, as Catholics.

On the other hand, worshiping in Latin/English is a personal preference and a diverse form of worship, but it is still allowed. (Until further notice?)

It’s more than a personal preference. It’s a prefernce of the Church.

Teach it to your little children; they will love it.

I’m sure it’s lovely. I am quite partial to that song. But neither my family nor my community has a cultural connection to the Hawaiian language so it would be quite out of place at Mass here.

It’s puzzling to think that such a beautiful hymn could not be sung during the Eucharist (either in English or Hawaiian) when I first asked to become a Catholic Christian as a young lad. The song was not approved; it was written by a Protestant. We may now sing it; one step by mankind, one leap for our precious Catholic Church (the People of God, the Body of Christ).

I would not consider it an appropriate hymn for during the Eucharist but that’s not because it was written by a protestant. It just doesn’t reflect that part of the Mass.

Here is a question that is right on topic for this CAF Thread: Would Fr. Rowe have had the right to celebrate Mass with a MIXTURE of English and Latin? Or, English and Aramaic for example, to please Aramaic speaking visitors, the Spirit of Jesus included? Would the bishop have phoned Fr. Rowe and said, “Bill, STOP IT!”? Your thoughts.

Of course, he would be allowed as long as he stayed true to the texts of the Mass in all of the languages he used. Now, it might be hard to get Aramaic approved since it is not, to my knowledge the vernacular of any group in the greater Illinois area. The only exception to saying Mass (in the Western Church) in Latin is to use the local vernacular.

I sense that we all need to be cautious, so as not to find ourselves “worshiping at the feet” of the Institutional Dimension of the Catholic Church, which, along with the laity, is to SERVE the Charismatic Dimension of the Church.

Source? I have never seen anything that says the laity serve the Charismatic dimension of the Church as a separate part of the Church. We serve the Church, period.

By the way, why face East during the consecration?

It’s Biblical; you can look it up.

In the older traditions, the priest and the people faced East. After the Consecration, they were all facing Jesus together in the Blessed Sacrament.

The holy Spirit of Christ Jesus is right there when the faithful gather in one place to celebrate the Eucharist. (East is where Mecca is located…!) Jesus is right there with us during the Eucharist, no matter which way we, and/or the priests, face. Amen?

During Mass, if you are facing away from the altar, you would not be facing Jesus, would you? So it does matter where we face.

 

[ProVobis]

To each her/his own, and that includes Fr. Rowe? Seriously, what do you see in Latin that makes it your choice for worship? It was replaced with the vernacular over 40 years ago, thanks to the Spirit of Jesus, through our authentic Catholic leaders in Rome.

That same spirit led to the APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION Veterum Sapientia, which effectively forbid the use of vernacular. It was issued by the same Pope who in a few months convened Vatican II.

Preservation of Latin by the Holy See

For these reasons the Apostolic See has always been at pains to preserve Latin, deeming it worthy of being used in the exercise of her teaching authority "as the splendid vesture of her heavenly doctrine and sacred laws."5 She further requires her sacred ministers to use it, for by so doing they are the better able, wherever they may be, to acquaint themselves with the mind of the Holy See on any matter, and communicate the more easily with Rome and with one another.

Thus the “knowledge and use of this language,” so intimately bound up with the Church’s life, "is important not so much on cultural or literary grounds, as for religious reasons."6 These are the words of Our Predecessor Pius XI, who conducted a scientific inquiry into this whole subject, and indicated three qualities of the Latin language which harmonize to a remarkable degree with the Church’s nature. "For the Church, precisely because it embraces all nations and is destined to endure to the end of time … of its very nature requires a language which is universal, immutable, and non-vernacular."7

 

[ProVobis]

Sorry, but Latin, the language of an ancient and brutal Roman Empire, leaves me cold.

If it were so evil and brutal, why did the U.S. founders seek to replicate its government (three branches, balance of power, the Senate, two parties, a Cabinet, etc.) and implement its moral code, beautifully expressed in Cicero’s De Officiis?

 

[rlg94086]

Richard,

Considering you came onto this thread to scold all of us, you might want to dial back some of your pronouncement, or at least check them for accuracy.

Wrong. No matter what language or combination of languages a priest uses to say Mass, he is required to use the approved texts.

Latin has never been replaced for Mass. Vatican II and several documents since have specifically demanded that Latin be retained.

It was also the language of St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas and every Pope. And it’s the official language of Holy Mother Church. Why would it not be attractive?

That is sad since Catholics should know enough Latin, in pronounciation if not word-for-word understanding to follow the Mass.

If you can’t sing the music the choir is singing, maybe choir is not the place for you.

Your source for this claim?

Interpreting tongues IS a gift of the Holy Spirit. Is is a gift that is given for the good of the assembly. If they aren’t interpreting your speaking in tongues to the rest of the assembly, it isn’t normal Christianity.

Being in communion with the Church and her language has nothing to do with joining to the Roman Empire.

Obedience?

Yes, we should all be emotionally protective about what the Church tells us to preserve.

Yes, I think you are wrong.

Your loss.

Actually, that would NOT be ok, if it’s in the context of Mass.

Latin has been the language of the Church for almost.2000 years and you can only think of three days?

It’s not “their” language. It’s OUR language, as Catholics.

It’s more than a personal preference. It’s a prefernce of the Church.

I’m sure it’s lovely. I am quite partial to that song. But neither my family nor my community has a cultural connection to the Hawaiian language so it would be quite out of place at Mass here.

I would not consider it an appropriate hymn for during the Eucharist but that’s not because it was written by a protestant. It just doesn’t reflect that part of the Mass.

Of course, he would be allowed as long as he stayed true to the texts of the Mass in all of the languages he used. Now, it might be hard to get Aramaic approved since it is not, to my knowledge the vernacular of any group in the greater Illinois area. The only exception to saying Mass (in the Western Church) in Latin is to use the local vernacular.

Source? I have never seen anything that says the laity serve the Charismatic dimension of the Church as a separate part of the Church. We serve the Church, period.

It’s Biblical; you can look it up.

In the older traditions, the priest and the people faced East. After the Consecration, they were all facing Jesus together in the Blessed Sacrament.

During Mass, if you are facing away from the altar, you would not be facing Jesus, would you? So it does matter where we face.

Thank you for providing all of those answers on my behalf. They were all spot on.

I’ve been working long hours, so I truly appreciate it.

 

[Richard_Hughes]

Aloha Dear Ones All:

There have been so many responses to my Posts, it will be difficult answering them individually, as much as I would like to. I will if it is God’s will (either His permissive or causative will) through His servants, the CAF referees and judges.

Many of the responses are simply CAF Posters’ personal opinions which is good. It tells us something about the average Catholic Poster’s spirit. There are some negative personal opinions about me. (CAF RULE: “Do not post anything on this web site that you do not want to remain online permanently.”) Permanently. You know who you are. (And so does God, by the way). Don’t bother running to confession, I have already forgiven you, and have asked God to do the same. In faith, I believe He will. He is ALIVE, folks, and will speak to you, you know. If you’ll listen to Him.

By the way, God (your Creator and mine) has a lot to say about “the Church” (i.e., the Catholic Institution) and Fr. Rowe’s case, if Posters will only listen to Him, with their heart, and not so much their head. Our Catholic religion and faith is subjective, not so much objective, as you know.

Have you noticed? There is very little spoken about God in this Thread. I have been accused of going off Topic. But I feel safe though, talking about God on this Thread, because God, and GOD alone, should be the most important part of the topic of EVERY Thread. I hope you agree. (He is on the top of my priority list.)

Do you remember my priority list? My son and his wife are visiting today from Honolulu, and I give them a higher priority then the Institutional dimension of the Catholic Church, so I better get going. God willing (through either His permissive or causative will) I’ll be back. In the meantime, I’ll share a dream I had that’s right on TOPIC. I was awaken, so I didn’t finish it. How should it end? Give it a try. End it with something about the HIGH Priest, THE SHEPARD. Give it a try., it’s right on TOPIC. My drean:

*With his liturgy, 72 year old Fr. Rowe (with probably 50 plus years of lonely priesthood under his belt) damaged the sheepfold while jumping over the stonewall (just a few of the rocks got loose) (sic). To him, the liturgical pastures outside the stonewall (everything was in stone, you know) seemed greener and more nutritious for his flock. He “done wrong,” of course. But none of the CAF Posters in the CAF Thread cared about the lost shepherd out there. (That was my major point.)

You will recall that, during the time of Christ Jesus, the shepherds would share the sheep fold, to jointly protect their sheep. Amazingly, each sheep knew their own individual shepherd. Cool!

For some time, the wayward shepherd who jumped over the stonewall, seemed to have behaved in an erratic and apparently perverse, and unpredictable way. He was self-destructive! He was destroying his career as a shepherd! He wasn’t acting like he did during the good old days. (Those were the days when the shepherds would wear a beautifully embroidered Roman “sweat towel” over one arm while feeding their sheep during Mass. Maybe not that old, but close. It was before Blessed Shepard John XXIII. A time when it was appropriate to pray the Rosary during Mass, when you got tired of reading your missals while trying to make sense of the Latin the priest was mumbling with his back to you.)

The wayward shepherd jumping over the stonewall and damaging it was the “last straw.” It infuriated the other shepherds. They explicitly followed the rules of their supervisors (dotting their teas and crossing their eyes) (sic), as the rich owner of the sheep in Rome expected them to, when he snapped his fingers. (It’s called blind obedience.) They had to follow the rules of the supervisors, which was painful, so the wayward shepherd HAD to suffer and follow the rules too. Objectively speaking, they were absolutely right.

When the wayward shepherd jumped over the stonewall, instead of going through the gate, he knocked a few rocks off the wall, and injured himself. While he lay on the pasture moaning, the other shepherds tried to repair the stone wall and they kept throwing rocks at him, which was the TRADITIONAL practice during the time of Christ Jesus. Jesus tried to stop the practice, but then they threw rocks at Jesus and finally nailed Him to a tree…

*Aloha,
Richard

 

[rlg94086]

Aloha Dear Ones All:

There have been so many responses to my Posts, it will be difficult answering them individually, as much as I would like to. I will if it is God’s will (either His permissive or causative will) through His servants, the CAF referees and judges.

Many of the responses are simply CAF Posters’ personal opinions which is good. It tells us something about the average Catholic Poster’s spirit. There are some negative personal opinions about me. (CAF RULE: “Do not post anything on this web site that you do not want to remain online permanently.”) Permanently. You know who you are. (And so does God, by the way). Don’t bother running to confession, I have already forgiven you, and have asked God to do the same. In faith, I believe He will. He is ALIVE, folks, and will speak to you, you know. If you’ll listen to Him.

By the way, God (your Creator and mine) has a lot to say about “the Church” (i.e., the Catholic Institution) and Fr. Rowe’s case, if Posters will only listen to Him, with their heart, and not so much their head. Our Catholic religion and faith is subjective, not so much objective, as you know.

Have you noticed? There is very little spoken about God in this Thread. I have been accused of going off Topic. But I feel safe though, talking about God on this Thread, because God, and GOD alone, should be the most important part of the topic of EVERY Thread. I hope you agree. (He is on the top of my priority list.)

Do you remember my priority list? My son and his wife are visiting today from Honolulu, and I give them a higher priority then the Institutional dimension of the Catholic Church, so I better get going. God willing (through either His permissive or causative will) I’ll be back. In the meantime, I’ll share a dream I had that’s right on TOPIC. I was awaken, so I didn’t finish it. How should it end? Give it a try. End it with something about the HIGH Priest, THE SHEPARD. Give it a try., it’s right on TOPIC. My drean:

With his liturgy, 72 year old Fr. Rowe (with probably 50 plus years of lonely priesthood under his belt) damaged the sheepfold while jumping over the stonewall (just a few of the rocks got loose) (sic). To him, the liturgical pastures outside the stonewall (everything was in stone, you know) seemed greener and more nutritious for his flock. He “done wrong,” of course. But none of the CAF Posters in the CAF Thread cared about the lost shepherd out there. (That was my major point.)

*You will recall that, during the time of Christ Jesus, the shepherds would share the sheep fold, to jointly protect their sheep. Amazingly, each sheep knew their own individual shepherd. Cool! *

*For some time, the wayward shepherd who jumped over the stonewall, seemed to have behaved in an erratic and apparently perverse, and unpredictable way. He was self-destructive! He was destroying his career as a shepherd! He wasn’t acting like he did during the good old days. (Those were the days when the shepherds would wear a beautifully embroidered Roman “sweat towel” over one arm while feeding their sheep during Mass. Maybe not that old, but close. It was before Blessed Shepard John XXIII. A time when it was appropriate to pray the Rosary during Mass, when you got tired of reading your missals while trying to make sense of the Latin the priest was mumbling with his back to you.) *

*The wayward shepherd jumping over the stonewall and damaging it was the “last straw.” It infuriated the other shepherds. They explicitly followed the rules of their supervisors (dotting their teas and crossing their eyes) (sic), as the rich owner of the sheep in Rome expected them to, when he snapped his fingers. (It’s called blind obedience.) They had to follow the rules of the supervisors, which was painful, so the wayward shepherd HAD to suffer and follow the rules too. Objectively speaking, they were absolutely right. *

*When the wayward shepherd jumped over the stonewall, instead of going through the gate, he knocked a few rocks off the wall, and injured himself. While he lay on the pasture moaning, the other shepherds tried to repair the stone wall and they kept throwing rocks at him, which was the TRADITIONAL practice during the time of Christ Jesus. Jesus tried to stop the practice, but then they threw rocks at Jesus and finally nailed Him to a tree… *

Aloha,
Richard

Um…:ehh:

It sounds like your dreams are incredibly anti-Catholic and uncharitable to the bishops. Weird.

 

[Rainaldo]

In the meantime, I’ll share a dream I had that’s right on TOPIC.

If you expect us to read every word of your lengthy posts, then I expect you to read every word of mine.

I have a dream too Richard.

It starts in a beautiful garden in the lush back yard of a wealthy man.

The wealthy man puts a cheap guitar in the middle of the garden and tells the gardener he must not play that guitar - “for in that day ye shall surely be fired”.

The gardener looks at that guitar day after day, and eventually comes to believe it is actually quite beautiful.

He gazes at it for weeks, and eventually convinces himself that whoever made that guitar must have intended it to be played. “What a shame that poor guitar is not fulfilling its potential”, he says to himself; “all the plants in the garden are missing out on the beautiful music!”

After obsessing over that guitar for months, the gardener dares to reach out and touch it, and runs his fingers along the taut strings, the gleaming frets, the graceful curves of its body. He gently plucks a string just to see if it is fit to be played. And as the sound echoes through the garden, the plants take notice.

Nothing happens, so he makes bold to strum a chord - at arms length, of course, because he is just testing it. A couple of orange daylilies in one corner of the garden take their gaze off the sun and look with curiosity at the gardener and the guitar.

Again nothing happens, so he cradles it in his arms, and begins to play. And he plays his heart out for the plants.

The sunflowers loop their necks down to watch him, the bamboo turns in his direction; even the ivy tears itself away from the tree trunks to send their tendrils admiringly towards his the musical charisma coming from the center of the garden.

And as he plays, he realizes that to play for the plants was his vocation all along, meeting their needs for music - music that he is making for them, borne of his genius-level creativity and skill at playing. And he can tell from the fact that the plants in the garden are all gravitating towards the music, that this is confirmation that he is doing the right thing, enriching their lives.

Then one day the property manager stops by to see how the garden is coming along. As he walks through the garden, he sees the daylilies lying on the ground as if trampled, the sunflowers bent over as if by a storm, the bamboo like a handful of drinking straws fallen out of a waitress’ apron-pocket … even the ivy, limp and helpless, strung across the ground instead of flourishing on a support.

The property manager calls the gardener over to demand an account of the state of the garden. “What happened here? All the plants are leaning inwards towards the center instead of growing upwards. Was there a tornado?”

The gardener picks up the guitar and starts playing again, and explains to the property manager, “To leave the guitar unplayed is to leave its deeper meaning hidden. That’s simply the way I garden, and if I am not allowed to do it that way, then I must offer my resignation.”

The property manager replies, “You’re a gardener, not a musician - and plants need to grow up toward the sun, not to be pulled down to the ground. If you can’t garden, then you’re fired.”

 

[Richard_Hughes]

Um…:ehh:

It sounds like your dreams are incredibly anti-Catholic and uncharitable to the bishops. Weird.

Thank you for your (“Catholic” or “catholic”?) opinion. Jesus (whom we should all try to emulate was anti-what-the-clerics-did, and was considered a weird Jew. EXAMPLE RIGHT ON TOPIC: If I were to object to Barrack Obama’s anti-Christ (sic), anti-Catholic-Christian, anti-Christian, anti-Body of Christ, anti-People of God, anti-American, pro-abortion, pro-Muslim Brotherhood stance, does that mean that I am incredibly anti-black and uncharitable toward Obama’s Marxist/Islamist ideology??? Please! Don’t dismiss this question; don’t feel you have to answer it, it’s rhetorical, but please pray to the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, about its LESSON.

The confessional is over their to the right. There never is a line, so you may just pop in — if there is a priest still in there (we are having a severe shortage). Interpretation: Not many people go to Confession any more; WE NEED MORE PRIESTS!

Dear fellow Catholic. I am not anti-Catholic. Please, no personal accusations or name calling. I CHOSE to become a Catholic (that’s what a Catholic convert is), remember? Sincerely, I am as Catholic Christian as the Pope. I now CHOOSE to remain a Catholic Christian, even though most of my 9 children have left the Institutional Dimension of the Catholic Church, but never, never the Charismatic Dimension. They are awesome, active catholic (with a small “c”) Christians.

Sorry about getting personal and witnessing again, but the accusation/innuendo was personal. Please folks: Encourage, don’t accuse.; it’s a good policy for CAF Threads. I participate on CAF Threads to learn, teach, and heal. Surely, that’s JESUS’ purpose (in His permissive will) for this His CAF Thread.

God is good, God is great, ALL the time!

iAloha,
Richard

 

[Richard_Hughes]

if you expect us to read every word of your lengthy posts, then i expect you to read every word of mine.

I have a dream too richard.

It starts in a beautiful garden in the lush back yard of a wealthy man.

The wealthy man puts a cheap guitar in the middle of the garden and tells the gardener he must not play that guitar - “for in that day ye shall surely be fired”.

The gardener looks at that guitar day after day, and eventually comes to believe it is actually quite beautiful.

He gazes at it for weeks, and eventually convinces himself that whoever made that guitar must have intended it to be played. “what a shame that poor guitar is not fulfilling its potential”, he says to himself; “all the plants in the garden are missing out on the beautiful music!”

after obsessing over that guitar for months, the gardener dares to reach out and touch it, and runs his fingers along the taut strings, the gleaming frets, the graceful curves of its body. He gently plucks a string just to see if it is fit to be played. And as the sound echoes through the garden, the plants take notice.

Nothing happens, so he makes bold to strum a chord - at arms length, of course, because he is just testing it. A couple of orange daylilies in one corner of the garden take their gaze off the sun and look with curiosity at the gardener and the guitar.

Again nothing happens, so he cradles it in his arms, and begins to play. And he plays his heart out for the plants.

The sunflowers loop their necks down to watch him, the bamboo turns in his direction; even the ivy tears itself away from the tree trunks to send their tendrils admiringly towards his the musical charisma coming from the center of the garden.

And as he plays, he realizes that to play for the plants was his vocation all along, meeting their needs for music - music that he is making for them, borne of his genius-level creativity and skill at playing. And he can tell from the fact that the plants in the garden are all gravitating towards the music, that this is confirmation that he is doing the right thing, enriching their lives.

Then one day the property manager stops by to see how the garden is coming along. As he walks through the garden, he sees the daylilies lying on the ground as if trampled, the sunflowers bent over as if by a storm, the bamboo like a handful of drinking straws fallen out of a waitress’ apron-pocket … Even the ivy, limp and helpless, strung across the ground instead of flourishing on a support.

The property manager calls the gardener over to demand an account of the state of the garden. “what happened here? All the plants are leaning inwards towards the center instead of growing upwards. Was there a tornado?”

the gardener picks up the guitar and starts playing again, and explains to the property manager, “to leave the guitar unplayed is to leave its deeper meaning hidden. That’s simply the way i garden, and if i am not allowed to do it that way, then i must offer my resignation.”

the property manager replies, “you’re a gardener, not a musician - and plants need to grow up toward the sun, not to be pulled down to the ground. If you can’t garden, then you’re fired.”

We’ll done! I’ll get back to you. Daughter visiting before teaching in Tarsus, Turkey, at American school; our high priority at the moment.

Aloha,
Richard

 

[curlycool89]

From my point of view, it seems the more education one has, the tendency of being overly concerned about small things in other people’s lives goes up; essentially the tendency to make a mountain out of a molehill, to construe “problems” needing “fixing” and not only for oneself, but for other people. The, “I’m educated, and you need saving!” mentality.

Ah, the educated ones. They always think they have the solutions to everything, but the problem is that they think they can take their ivory tower and apply it everywhere.

I doubt you can find this list anywhere in Church teaching. I disagree for separating the 7th and the 8th from the 1st. The Body of Christ is an integral part of God. As to your placing charismatic over institution, I am reminded of Micah who reminds us that obedience is better than sacrifice. We simply can not seek our own way over the Church and contrary to the Church. Fr. Rowe may have acted as thought “he and Jesus got their own thing going, don’t need no one (bishop) to tell him what it’s all about,” but that is not the Catholic faith, or any type of genuine Christianity.

Obedience is always integral to holiness. I’d say that you can’t be holy without obedience because you end up worshiping yourself or your community over God.

Personally, I go with Catherine Doherty, the great foundress of Madonna House: God is #1, Others are #2, I am #3.

To each her/his own, and that includes Fr. Rowe? Seriously, what do you see in Latin that makes it your choice for worship? It was replaced with the vernacular over 40 years ago, thanks to the Spirit of Jesus, through our authentic Catholic leaders in Rome. Jesus spoke Aramaic, as you know, and in some places, Christians still worship in their language, Aramaic. So what makes Latin attractive for you? Remember, it was the official language of the ancient Roman Empire and its brutal pagan soldiers who tortured and executed our Lord and God, the Christ, Jesus!

That’s way out of line to get one someone’s case because they prefer Latin.

And if you really want a comparison, Latin is allowed by the Church, what Fr. Rowe did was not. It’s that simple, one is allowed and the other is not. Capiche?

Now, if I may play the other side for a second Corki (just a few points):

It was also the language of St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas and every Pope. And it’s the official language of Holy Mother Church. Why would it not be attractive?

That’s not really a reason, that’s appealing to emotions.

St. Augustine et al also didn’t have indoor plumbing or air conditioning or airplanes, but I don’t see anyone calling for us to go back to throwing our excrement out into the streets using a bucket.

That is sad since Catholics should know enough Latin, in pronounciation if not word-for-word understanding to follow the Mass.

That’s not quite true either. Latin is strictly speaking a central European language, and the people who can really speak it well is restricted to those people. People in China probably can’t speak latin very well no matter how much they try because their language is so different.

I would not consider it an appropriate hymn for during the Eucharist but that’s not because it was written by a protestant. It just doesn’t reflect that part of the Mass.

I agree with you there, How Great thou Art is a very beautiful hymn, but not appropriate for communion. Communion hymns should help us to meditate on the Sacrament we are receiving (we had a whole discussion in L&S over the appropriateness of patriotic hymns during communion).

By the way, God (your Creator and mine) has a lot to say about “the Church” (i.e., the Catholic Institution) and Fr. Rowe’s case, if Posters will only listen to Him, with their heart, and not so much their head. **Our Catholic religion and faith is subjective, not so much objective, as you know. **

False. Catholicism is objectively the Truth because it was founded on the Truth, Jesus Christ. And Jesus gave the keys to Peter to govern His Church, and He promised to send the Holy Spirit to protect His Church.

 

[Corki]

Now, if I may play the other side for a second Corki (just a few points):

That’s not really a reason, that’s appealing to emotions.

St. Augustine et al also didn’t have indoor plumbing or air conditioning or airplanes, but I don’t see anyone calling for us to go back to throwing our excrement out into the streets using a bucket.

I was merely countering (with emotion, granted) Richard’s attempt to equate Latin with Christ’s executioners.

That’s not quite true either. Latin is strictly speaking a central European language, and the people who can really speak it well is restricted to those people. People in China probably can’t speak latin very well no matter how much they try because their language is so different.

There’s a big difference between being conversant in a language and knowing enough to recite common prayers. Richard seems to be a big fan of Vatican II. I simply wanted to point out that the same document that gives allowances for Mass in the vernacular, Sacrosanctum Concilium, includes this often overlooked directive.

Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.

SC 54

 

[curlycool89]

I was merely countering (with emotion, granted) Richard’s attempt to equate Latin with Christ’s executioners.

I know, I just want to make sure we’re not swinging the pendulum from one extreme to the other.

 

[rlg94086]

Thank you for your (“Catholic” or “catholic”?) opinion. Jesus (whom we should all try to emulate was anti-what-the-clerics-did, and was considered a weird Jew. EXAMPLE RIGHT ON TOPIC: If I were to object to Barrack Obama’s anti-Christ (sic), anti-Catholic-Christian, anti-Christian, anti-Body of Christ, anti-People of God, anti-American, pro-abortion, pro-Muslim Brotherhood stance, does that mean that I am incredibly anti-black and uncharitable toward Obama’s Marxist/Islamist ideology??? Please! Don’t dismiss this question; don’t feel you have to answer it, it’s rhetorical, but please pray to the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, about its LESSON.

The confessional is over their to the right. There never is a line, so you may just pop in — if there is a priest still in there (we are having a severe shortage). Interpretation: Not many people go to Confession any more; WE NEED MORE PRIESTS!

Dear fellow Catholic. I am not anti-Catholic. Please, no personal accusations or name calling. I CHOSE to become a Catholic (that’s what a Catholic convert is), remember? Sincerely, I am as Catholic Christian as the Pope. I now CHOOSE to remain a Catholic Christian, even though most of my 9 children have left the Institutional Dimension of the Catholic Church, but never, never the Charismatic Dimension. They are awesome, active catholic (with a small “c”) Christians.

Sorry about getting personal and witnessing again, but the accusation/innuendo was personal. Please folks: Encourage, don’t accuse.; it’s a good policy for CAF Threads. I participate on CAF Threads to learn, teach, and heal. Surely, that’s JESUS’ purpose (in His permissive will) for this His CAF Thread.

God is good, God is great, ALL the time!

iAloha,
Richard

I didn’t accuse you of anything, and I didn’t question your faith (as you just did mine “or ‘catholic?’”). I merely said your dream was anti-Catholic and uncharitable to the bishops.

As far as Confession, I go regularly - typically weekly, but at least once per month. I need it.

Thankfully, seminaries are seeing an increase in new priests. We’ve been very fortunate to have a couple of them at our parish, and they are very orthodox and tend toward the traditional.

As far as your odd Obama “EXAMPLE RIGHT ON TOPIC,” it isn’t actually on topic. I enjoy the irony of that. Beyond that, I have no idea what lesson I am supposed to gain from it.

 

[ProVobis]

That’s not quite true either. Latin is strictly speaking a central European language, and the people who can really speak it well is restricted to those people. People in China probably can’t speak latin very well no matter how much they try because their language is so different.

I’ve often wondered how they can make the Latin-Chinese literal translations since there are very few, if any, cognates between the two languages. Not directly anyway. True in Polish as well. One has to resort to some educated guess to make the translation, I would think. Either that or try to make the connection through some other language.

 

[Corki]

I’ve often wondered how they can make the Latin-Chinese literal translations since there are very few, if any, cognates between the two languages. Not directly anyway. True in Polish as well. One has to resort to some educated guess to make the translation, I would think. Either that or try to make the connection through some other language.

They do sometimes make the translations through a third language. That was one of the reasons given for needed to be a precise as possible with the English translation. It is used as the starting point for some other translations. I believe that German is one of those too.

 

[curlycool89]

I’ve often wondered how they can make the Latin-Chinese literal translations since there are very few, if any, cognates between the two languages. Not directly anyway. True in Polish as well. One has to resort to some educated guess to make the translation, I would think. Either that or try to make the connection through some other language.

It’s a bit of a bad-choice/bad-choice situation. If they just go with Mass in Latin, you’re going to need to import a priest because the local people would have great difficulty pronouncing it. On the other hand, if you translate it you probably can’t get any better then a dynamic (maybe partially literal) translation just because the languages are so different.

They do sometimes make the translations through a third language. That was one of the reasons given for needed to be a precise as possible with the English translation. It is used as the starting point for some other translations. I believe that German is one of those too.

That’s probably a good plan. English is a bit more of a permissive/looser language I believe then Latin (and derivatives) when it comes to grammar and rules (for every rule there are probably a dozen exceptions, our rules are a lot closer to suggestions sometimes).

 

[ProVobis]

That’s probably a good plan. English is a bit more of a permissive/looser language I believe then Latin (and derivatives) when it comes to grammar and rules (for every rule there are probably a dozen exceptions, our rules are a lot closer to suggestions sometimes).

That’s probably true about the English but that’s not really true about the traditional English translation which I’m guessing comes from the Church of England. I read once where a perfect translation is one where you can translate A to B and then translate B back to A and the original should come out to be the same. The current structure doesn’t allow that. For example, Sursum corda = > Lift up your hearts = > Levate corda vestra, hardly the same in the Latin. In Spanish it’s *Levantenos el corazon *, which appears to be translated from the English but that doesn’t work either trying to produce the original Latin. OTOH Sursum corda = > *W gore serca *(in Polish) = > Sursum corda. In this case (as well as the Dominus Vobiscum, Pan z wami) the Polish could be used as the better standard to translate into Chinese if a Latinist can’t be found among the Chinese.

Methinks the ICEL (not to mention perhaps the CofE) became too influential but the decision was made and that’s that.