Belleville Diocesan priests ask Bp. Braxton to resign

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I’m just not sure what is orthodox about misusing church funds.
Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Three things seem strange about this line of discussion:

What excuse is there to not forgive a man who has asked to be forgiven? Can the priests be right to refuse to forgive a Bishop who has repented, returned the money, and asked for forgiveness?

Who controls the use of funds given to the Church? Can donors or the state dictate to the Church how to manage funds donated? Does the power to “bind and loose” not extend to decisions about how best to worship? The decision between funds given to the poor and given to the Liturgy seem well within the Bishop’s prerogative; both are forms of worship. If the decision of how best to honor God has been hamstrung by “American business ethics” this might be a deep problem in itself.

The creeping (totalitarian) assumption that the Church ought be subject to secular standards and state supervision is disconcerting. St. Thomas a Becket pray for us.

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner
 
Why so many in the Church at least in the US decided to copy the Protestants is beyond me. Secularism had its finest friend in Luther. Now these “lutheran” priests are trying to destroy a good priest not over sacred theology or faith but over…over…what?

CDL
 
from a previous post…

I know the temptation is to believe that because it is a ‘liberal’ diocese that those hateful ‘liberals’ have risen up and are trying to drive an ‘orthodox’ man out of their midst.
I’m just not sure what is orthodox about misusing church funds.


Those who read the thread about the diocese of Saginaw might be able to suggest what that “some reason” is.🤷
Oh brother…how’s the struggle with grace going?

Let’s draw a parallel with Saginaw, since you brought it up.

One could argue that both dioceses received new ‘orthodox’ (love that loaded adjective since it usually means “bishops people on this forum like”) bishops around the same time.

Both have spent time ‘cleaning up liturgical abuses’ etc.

Only one has his priests on the verge of mutiny.

This is clearly not simply a case of priests upset that they are being told to use gold chalices.

Something bigger is going on here.

I’m not excusing the behavior of the priests…but somewhere in all this people need to stop negotiating through press release.

A bishop can’t exist without his priests…or at the least he can’t be very effective.
 
Laudatur Iesus Christus.

Three things seem strange about this line of discussion:

What excuse is there to not forgive a man who has asked to be forgiven? Can the priests be right to refuse to forgive a Bishop who has repented, returned the money, and asked for forgiveness?

Who controls the use of funds given to the Church? Can donors or the state dictate to the Church how to manage funds donated? Does the power to “bind and loose” not extend to decisions about how best to worship? The decision between funds given to the poor and given to the Liturgy seem well within the Bishop’s prerogative; both are forms of worship. If the decision of how best to honor God has been hamstrung by “American business ethics” this might be a deep problem in itself.

The creeping (totalitarian) assumption that the Church ought be subject to secular standards and state supervision is disconcerting. St. Thomas a Becket pray for us.

Spiritus Sapientiae nobiscum.

John Hiner
In the case of these funds, my understanding was they were solicited as gifts specifically to the poor, not gifts for a new conference table and new vestments.

I’m not suggesting this is fraud, but secular/legal standards of fraud still apply to religious institutions.
 
In the case of these funds, my understanding was they were solicited as gifts specifically to the poor, not gifts for a new conference table and new vestments.

I’m not suggesting this is fraud, but secular/legal standards of fraud still apply to religious institutions.
Can anyone demonstrate that this was anything more than a clerical error which was corrected? Anyone? Even if this was intentional it still does not rise to the level that it has. This is just silliness. The real reason must be elsewhere.

CDL
 
Can anyone demonstrate that this was anything more than a clerical error which was corrected? Anyone? Even if this was intentional it still does not rise to the level that it has. This is just silliness. The real reason must be elsewhere.

CDL
From a previous post:

*They have been looking for a reason to get rid of him since before he arrived…now there is essentially a clerical error (that the bishop has apologized for and re-paid from another account), and the vultures are striking.

*It seems to me that this thing was a mistake - the Bishop is moving to rectify this mistake - and the Priests that serve under him are finding a reason to get rid of him.
 
From a previous post:

They have been looking for a reason to get rid of him since before he arrived…now there is essentially a clerical error (that the bishop has apologized for and re-paid from another account), and the vultures are striking.

It seems to me that this thing was a mistake - the Bishop is moving to rectify this mistake - and the Priests that serve under him are finding a reason to get rid of him.
First a clerical error… corrected

Next a cleric error… needs to be corrected.

Prayers for the good Bishop Braxton.
 
I live in this diocese. Braxton misappropriated funds meant for charities and bought his own vestments with it, among other things, holds secret meetings, tends to exclude the priest’s (name removed by moderator)uts on decisions where they should be listened too, did not renew the contract of a well thought of auditor, and seems to have a very big ego and is very aloof.

He seems to have lost the trust of much of the laity, as well as the clergy.

This is my take. I’m sure there are Braxton supporters out there.
Mikew,

First you talk about Bishop Burke’s actions and now you talk about Bishop Braxton’s actions.
Is this becoming a hobby for you?
Are you going to work your way down the alphabet…you’re on the “B’s”.

I’ve read about this situation and am familiar with Belleville. I have family there.
Liberal theology, sex scandal, new-age changes to the mass, liturgy, prayers etc etc. - it is obvious to me that the 2/3 of the…whatevers are trying to keep the status quo and so are hoping to pile up the lies against Bishop Braxton.

The smoke of satan. That’s what is happening here. Bishop Braxton ( God bless him) might be confronted with the same situation as Bishop Burke very soon.
I wouldn’t doubt for a moment that excommunication is a forthcoming decision that is weighing heavily on the Bishop’s mind.
Any excuse, however murky or muddled is good enough for the new-age, liberal, heretics who prefer to compromise catholicity for the popular trends of this age.

2/3rds…a small number to get rid of as compared to 1/3 of angels expelled from heaven during that rebellion.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
 
What a questionable thing to say!

IF someone inspires hatred in another person, I’m not sure that’s a laudable quality…regardless of who is doing the hating.
It can be… it depends on what ignited the hate. Such as proclaiming the gospel. Teaching Orthodox Christianity. Running off wayward priests.
 
. . . but secular/legal standards of fraud still apply to religious institutions.
Laudatur Iesus Christus.

How did this happen? We are not talking about “religious institutions,” we are talking about the Church. Do you support this idea?

Pax Christi nobiscum.

John Hiner
 
Mikew,

First you talk about Bishop Burke’s actions and now you talk about Bishop Braxton’s actions.
Is this becoming a hobby for you?
Are you going to work your way down the alphabet…you’re on the “B’s”.

I’ve read about this situation and am familiar with Belleville. I have family there.
Liberal theology, sex scandal, new-age changes to the mass, liturgy, prayers etc etc. - it is obvious to me that the 2/3 of the…whatevers are trying to keep the status quo and so are hoping to pile up the lies against Bishop Braxton.

The smoke of Satan. That’s what is happening here. Bishop Braxton ( God bless him) might be confronted with the same situation as Bishop Burke very soon.
I wouldn’t doubt for a moment that excommunication is a forthcoming decision that is weighing heavily on the Bishop’s mind.
Any excuse, however murky or muddled is good enough for the new-age, liberal, heretics who prefer to compromise catholicity for the popular trends of this age.

2/3rds…a small number to get rid of as compared to 1/3 of angels expelled from heaven during that rebellion.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
You know, Mike CAN be supportive of the bishops when they speak in an orthodox way on matters of faith and morals, and yet disagree with how they conduct themselves in day-to-day dealings in their dioceses. If he feels that Burke was peremptory in how he initially handled St. Stanislaus (an opinion I happen to share), or feels that Bp. Braxton created an appearance of impropriety so egregious that would it rise to a level that would lead to dismissal in other organizational situations, Mike is entitled to those thoughts.

I don’t know enough about the Belleville situation to hold an opinion about Braxton’s actions. I do know, as a St. Louisan, that I have been sick unto death at the scandals that have especially plagued that diocese locally for so many years. I strongly suspect the scandals were the result of lax or even liberal diocesan leadership, a la “Farewell Good Men”. Good leadership is needed to bring such things to heel. I admire Burke for being such a leader, even if I think that he misdirected his energies in how he handled St. Stan’s. St. Stan’s was NOT a hotbed of problems until he tried to arm-wrestle with them over financial control of the parish.

I have been in a position to know that at least a couple of convents in the greater St. Louis area are loaded with nuns whose private opinions and activities are in open rebellion against the public policies of the Magisterium. (That is to say, I know of nuns in at least two distinct orders who belong to organizations, even lead local chapters of organizations, which advocate priestly ordination for women, same-sex advocacy, pro-choice advocacy, and so forth).

The fact that Roman Catholic bishops have in the past not taken a firm hand in disciplining such things represent a minor deterrent to my considering the RCC as an alternative to my own Episcopal church. Frankly, it looks to me as if the same problems which are capsizing the TEC are lurking in the wings to do the same to the RCC, and too many Catholic bishops are largely allowing this situation to persist in much the same way Episcopal bishops allowed it in the 1940s, '50’s and 60’s. Y’all are just taking a little longer than we did to apostatise.

In any case: I have no doubt that if Braxton is the sort of man who would stand up to such abuses in Belleville, the popular press would roast him alive at every turn.

On the other hand, he may just be a jerk with a pointy hat and a crosier. I dunno. Anyhow, Mike isn’t doing anything wrong by wondering if Braxton might not be culpable for the financial issues that have come up recently.
 
It is often an easy temptation to presume the world is divided into only two groups: the good and the bad. Unfortunately the world has only one category of humans: good, but fallen.

It is unfortunately quite possible that a group of priests used to lax liturgical practice and bad theology can have legitimate moral complaints about a bishop who has impeccable liturgical standards an preaches perfect orthodoxy.

Those of us who don’t live nearby have very little reliable means to judge who did what and why and even less reason to in the first place.

When such fracases rise, its best for us faraway folks to pray that God’s will be done and His Church served as best as possible by holy priests and bishops. Folks living in the thick of it have things tougher and need more information than can be gathered on an internet forum.
 
It is often an easy temptation to presume the world is divided into only two groups: the good and the bad. Unfortunately the world has only one category of humans: good, but fallen.

It is unfortunately quite possible that a group of priests used to lax liturgical practice and bad theology can have legitimate moral complaints about a bishop who has impeccable liturgical standards an preaches perfect orthodoxy . . .
Insightful. Thanks.
 
I live in this diocese. Braxton misappropriated funds meant for charities and bought his own vestments with it, among other things, holds secret meetings, tends to exclude the priest’s (name removed by moderator)uts on decisions where they should be listened too, did not renew the contract of a well thought of auditor, and seems to have a very big ego and is very aloof.

He seems to have lost the trust of much of the laity, as well as the clergy.

This is my take. I’m sure there are Braxton supporters out there.
Yep, I talked to my mother about this yesterday. This Bishop took funds designated for charities and bought not only vestments, but also furniture for the rectory. His unpopularity has NOTHING to do with his being a “conservative Bishop” and EVERYTHING to do with poor judgement, poor leadership, and poor communication. Just the misappropriation alone should warrant his removal as Bishop. The Church has too many black eyes already because of self serving clergy.
 
The Catholic Church is not a “majority rules” organization.
Nor should it be a dictatorship. Yes, the Bishop is in charge, but the priests are the ones who deal with the faithful day in and day out, so too not seek counsel with the priests is bad leadership in my opinion.
 
Mikew,

First you talk about Bishop Burke’s actions and now you talk about Bishop Braxton’s actions.
Is this becoming a hobby for you?
Nope, we just have 2 bishops in this area that I question some of their actions, as do others. The previous 2 bishops I had no problem with. I’m not a “the Church is always right no matter what” groupie. Sorry.
 
Yep, I talked to my mother about this yesterday. This Bishop took funds designated for charities and bought not only vestments, but also furniture for the rectory. His unpopularity has NOTHING to do with his being a “conservative Bishop” and EVERYTHING to do with poor judgement, poor leadership, and poor communication. Just the misappropriation alone should warrant his removal as Bishop. The Church has too many black eyes already because of self serving clergy.
Exactly! 👍
 
Some points to make.

Most of the priests who signed the petition are msgrs and have been around in the diocese for a long time.

The Belleville diocese was among the worst in the US for the sexual abuse.

I travel all over the US for business but I have never seen as much liturgical abuse as I do in my home diocese, Belleville.

The explanation given were that the funds were just taken out of the wrong account, but were put back into those accounts right away.

There are 4 call to action groups in the area. The diocese is very liberal. The bishop has been trying to change that since he has been there.

The bishop is still in mourning over his mother who just passed away. He was very close to her.

The bishop insists on following the rules of the mass and has come down pretty hard on the liturgical abuses.

Last point…worth repeating…I travel all over the US for business but I have never seen as much liturgical abuse as I do in my home diocese, Belleville.
 
You know, Mike CAN be supportive of the bishops when they speak in an orthodox way on matters of faith and morals, and yet disagree with how they conduct themselves in day-to-day dealings in their dioceses. If he feels that Burke was peremptory in how he initially handled St. Stanislaus (an opinion I happen to share), or feels that Bp. Braxton created an appearance of impropriety so egregious that would it rise to a level that would lead to dismissal in other organizational situations, Mike is entitled to those thoughts.

I don’t know enough about the Belleville situation to hold an opinion about Braxton’s actions. I do know, as a St. Louisan, that I have been sick unto death at the scandals that have especially plagued that diocese locally for so many years. I strongly suspect the scandals were the result of lax or even liberal diocesan leadership, a la “Farewell Good Men”. Good leadership is needed to bring such things to heel. I admire Burke for being such a leader, even if I think that he misdirected his energies in how he handled St. Stan’s. St. Stan’s was NOT a hotbed of problems until he tried to arm-wrestle with them over financial control of the parish.

I have been in a position to know that at least a couple of convents in the greater St. Louis area are loaded with nuns whose private opinions and activities are in open rebellion against the public policies of the Magisterium. (That is to say, I know of nuns in at least two distinct orders who belong to organizations, even lead local chapters of organizations, which advocate priestly ordination for women, same-sex advocacy, pro-choice advocacy, and so forth).

The fact that Roman Catholic bishops have in the past not taken a firm hand in disciplining such things represent a minor deterrent to my considering the RCC as an alternative to my own Episcopal church. Frankly, it looks to me as if the same problems which are capsizing the TEC are lurking in the wings to do the same to the RCC, and too many Catholic bishops are largely allowing this situation to persist in much the same way Episcopal bishops allowed it in the 1940s, '50’s and 60’s. Y’all are just taking a little longer than we did to apostatise.

In any case: I have no doubt that if Braxton is the sort of man who would stand up to such abuses in Belleville, the popular press would roast him alive at every turn.

On the other hand, he may just be a jerk with a pointy hat and a crosier. I dunno. Anyhow, Mike isn’t doing anything wrong by wondering if Braxton might not be culpable for the financial issues that have come up recently.
Thanks! 🙂
 
Nope, we just have 2 bishops in this area that I question some of their actions, as do others. The previous 2 bishops I had no problem with. I’m not a “the Church is always right no matter what” groupie. Sorry.
If you follow what the church teaches, you call them a groupie?

Just curious, what don’t you agree with on what the church teaches?
 
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