Belleville Diocesan priests ask Bp. Braxton to resign

[Engineer1]

Pastoral respect is something that a bishop can’t just expect. No matter who the priests are giving their oath to, if they don’t like the man, they don’t like him. His pastoral presence is disturbing…he continues to “hide” in his diocesan office.
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Bologna.

I have only been in this diocese for 7 months and I’ve already met the bishop (he came to our parish men’s group) and read his pastoral letter (which he handed to me personally).

Our parish bulletin carried the bishop’s parish visitation schedule…he’s been meeting with parish groups at the rate of at least once or twice a week since his installation.

If he’s been a bit “scarce” lately, consider that he (1) just buried his beloved mother, and (2) it’s Holy Week when the bishop is expected to be around the Cathedral.

 

[Nordar]

I really feel for Bishop Braxton, I get the feeling that Orthodox Catholics such as he are just left dangling in the wind. Where is The Vatican in this or others to have his back? It really is very disheartening when A Bishop who is trying to adhere to the teachings of the Church is being so persecuted.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Some have said the bishop’s leaderships style is authoritarian, but you know, if your priests are asking for “liberal” or heterodox things and you say “no” and end the discussion…that’s good pastoral leadership. It is not charity or good fathering to allow your flock to do things that lead them away from the Faith…

I disagree, I see it as poor leadership. Enforcing the rules is not leadership. It is much easier to tear down than to build up. He could work with the Diocese as it is to come to some happy medium compromise, as life and the Diocese (all dioceses) are shades of gray with the people that make up them. When you focus on the rules you loose the spiritual part of the faith. It is more than just rote memorization.

 

[MrS]

I disagree, I see it as poor leadership. Enforcing the rules is not leadership. It is much easier to tear down than to build up. He could work with the Diocese as it is to come to some happy medium compromise, as life and the Diocese (all dioceses) are shades of gray with the people that make up them. When you focus on the rules you loose the spiritual part of the faith. It is more than just rote memorization.

This is, IMHO, a horrible attitude especially when discussing the authority of bishops.

It is said that the devil’s favorite color is grey. And heaven forbid we focus on rules. Surely the bishop can compromise and give the priests some of what they want… maybe you can suggest which rules the priests don’t need to focus on.

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[LRThunder]

I disagree, I see it as poor leadership. Enforcing the rules is not leadership. It is much easier to tear down than to build up. He could work with the Diocese as it is to come to some happy medium compromise, as life and the Diocese (all dioceses) are shades of gray with the people that make up them. When you focus on the rules you loose the spiritual part of the faith. It is more than just rote memorization.

If rules aren’t enforced, what you have is anarchy. Just imagine if the police and the FBI didn’t enforce the laws of this country.

 

[Engineer1]

NewUlm1976_2000: It is clear to me that you have never held a position of leadership, or you would never have made a statement like that.

Consider this…if your 14 year old daughter came to you and wanted to take drugs or get birth-control pills so she could have sex, would you not “enforce the rules”? I certainly hope so…a good father and a good leader does what is best, not what is popular. As I have said, I’ve met Bishop Braxton, and I’ve read what he’s written, he strikes me as nothing if not charitable. If there’s a problem, it’s because he likely said “no” to some heterodox or liberal idea from the local priests.

Judging only by the letters to the editors and the local Catholic blogs, His Excellency has the support of the vast majority of Catholics in the diocese.

bnd.com/editorial/letters/story/288328.html

 

[dmelosi]

I disagree, I see it as poor leadership. Enforcing the rules is not leadership. It is much easier to tear down than to build up. He could work with the Diocese as it is to come to some happy medium compromise, as life and the Diocese (all dioceses) are shades of gray with the people that make up them. When you focus on the rules you loose the spiritual part of the faith. It is more than just rote memorization.

I think you have missed one of the most important parts of this…the priests BEFORE he took over told him that they did not want him there and that they would get him.

There was an ad in the local paper from a priest that did support the bishop that said that the ultra liberal priests were the ones to asking for the resignation. You just don’t hear much about that, I am looking for the ad to post it.

 

[mfundis]

Here’s the list of the priests who signed: bnd.com/389/story/283792.html

I have lived in this diocese all of my life- and have found myself in one of the more heterodox parishes in my adulthood. At mass last night, during the consecration, the priest didn’t even pray for Bishop Braxton- instead he said “the college of Bishops”. The congregation doesn’t kneel during the consecration- and hasn’t since I’ve moved here 10 years ago. When I asked about it- I was told that I could if I wanted to (so I do), but that it was personal choice…somehow I found myself in the role of the troublemaker.

The individuals in FOSIL (read call to action- [although the ironic name CRACKS me UP-- the members seem to be about 15-20 yrs my senior]) and SIAP (southern illinois association of priests) remind me of teenaged children. They don’t want to follow the rules of their parents- they’re much too smart for that, but they are content to live in the house, eat the food, and borrow the car.

I do wish that the Bishop hadn’t made his financial mistakes though. It’s very unfortunate, because a number of people (like my parents and a number of people where I work) read these things in the paper, and are ready to take it all at face value- thus undermining his authority.

Please pray for the Bishop and our diocese!

 

[dmelosi]

Here’s the list of the priests who signed: bnd.com/389/story/283792.html

I have lived in this diocese all of my life- and have found myself in one of the more heterodox parishes in my adulthood. At mass last night, during the consecration, the priest didn’t even pray for Bishop Braxton- instead he said “the college of Bishops”. The congregation doesn’t kneel during the consecration- and hasn’t since I’ve moved here 10 years ago. When I asked about it- I was told that I could if I wanted to (so I do), but that it was personal choice…somehow I found myself in the role of the troublemaker.

The individuals in FOSIL (read call to action- [although the ironic name CRACKS me UP-- the members seem to be about 15-20 yrs my senior]) and SIAP (southern illinois association of priests) remind me of teenaged children. They don’t want to follow the rules of their parents- they’re much too smart for that, but they are content to live in the house, eat the food, and borrow the car.

I do wish that the Bishop hadn’t made his financial mistakes though. It’s very unfortunate, because a number of people (like my parents and a number of people where I work) read these things in the paper, and are ready to take it all at face value- thus undermining his authority.

Please pray for the Bishop and our diocese!

I live in the area too and went to a mass in Lebanon. It was the first time that I had been to this church and I actually had to look to see if I made a mistake and went to the wrong church. I have never seen more liturgical abuses in any other church I have been to.

But if you look at the bishop’s letter, he addressed the funds and where they were coming from at the time he did it. He stated then that if he was mistaken, he would use the other source.

Yes, please everyone pray for the Bishop and the diocese.

 

[Engineer1]

I am looking for the ad to post it.

Here’s a link to the text of the ad:

soilcatholics.blogspot.com/2008/03/fr-richard-weiderts-ad.html

 

[mfundis]

I live in the area too and went to a mass in Lebanon. It was the first time that I had been to this church and I actually had to look to see if I made a mistake and went to the wrong church. I have never seen more liturgical abuses in any other church I have been to.

But if you look at the bishop’s letter, he addressed the funds and where they were coming from at the time he did it. He stated then that if he was mistaken, he would use the other source.

Yes, please everyone pray for the Bishop and the diocese.

Oh, I realize the Bishop has responded- and I accept his explanation…but you know how people are-- if a lie (or in this case, a one sided story) is told enough, it becomes the “truth” to people.

BTW- I hope you weren’t offended by the guitars at mass- I probably was playing one of them…but I was KNEELING during the consecration

 

[dmelosi]

Oh, I realize the Bishop has responded- and I accept his explanation…but you know how people are-- if a lie (or in this case, a one sided story) is told enough, it becomes the “truth” to people.

BTW- I hope you weren’t offended by the guitars at mass- I probably was playing one of them…but I was KNEELING during the consecration

Shoot no, was very good music. Not offended at all. I couldnt see anyone else kneeling, we were at the back kneeling and couldnt see the front because everyone else was standing.

The sad thing is that most people dont realize that the priests are doing things against the church, the priests end up leading so many others astray.

 

[dmelosi]

Here’s a link to the text of the ad:

soilcatholics.blogspot.com/2008/03/fr-richard-weiderts-ad.html

Thanks!

 

[dmelosi]

Oh, I realize the Bishop has responded- and I accept his explanation…but you know how people are-- if a lie (or in this case, a one sided story) is told enough, it becomes the “truth” to people.

BTW- I hope you weren’t offended by the guitars at mass- I probably was playing one of them…but I was KNEELING during the consecration

This is one of the masses that I reported the liturgical abuses to the Bishop. The secretary asked me to put it in a letter and indicated that the Bishop would be following up.

 

[mangy_dog]

You know, Mike CAN be supportive of the bishops when they speak in an orthodox way on matters of faith and morals, and yet disagree with how they conduct themselves in day-to-day dealings in their dioceses. If he feels that Burke was peremptory in how he initially handled St. Stanislaus (an opinion I happen to share), or feels that Bp. Braxton created an appearance of impropriety so egregious that would it rise to a level that would lead to dismissal in other organizational situations, Mike is entitled to those thoughts.

I don’t know enough about the Belleville situation to hold an opinion about Braxton’s actions. I do know, as a St. Louisan, that I have been sick unto death at the scandals that have especially plagued that diocese locally for so many years. I strongly suspect the scandals were the result of lax or even liberal diocesan leadership, a la “Farewell Good Men”. Good leadership is needed to bring such things to heel. I admire Burke for being such a leader, even if I think that he misdirected his energies in how he handled St. Stan’s. St. Stan’s was NOT a hotbed of problems until he tried to arm-wrestle with them over financial control of the parish.

I have been in a position to know that at least a couple of convents in the greater St. Louis area are loaded with nuns whose private opinions and activities are in open rebellion against the public policies of the Magisterium. (That is to say, I know of nuns in at least two distinct orders who belong to organizations, even lead local chapters of organizations, which advocate priestly ordination for women, same-sex advocacy, pro-choice advocacy, and so forth).

The fact that Roman Catholic bishops have in the past not taken a firm hand in disciplining such things represent a minor deterrent to my considering the RCC as an alternative to my own Episcopal church. Frankly, it looks to me as if the same problems which are capsizing the TEC are lurking in the wings to do the same to the RCC, and too many Catholic bishops are largely allowing this situation to persist in much the same way Episcopal bishops allowed it in the 1940s, '50’s and 60’s. Y’all are just taking a little longer than we did to apostatise.

In any case: I have no doubt that if Braxton is the sort of man who would stand up to such abuses in Belleville, the popular press would roast him alive at every turn.

On the other hand, he may just be a jerk with a pointy hat and a crosier. I dunno. Anyhow, Mike isn’t doing anything wrong by wondering if Braxton might not be culpable for the financial issues that have come up recently.

Hello flame,

The lenten season has left me drained of all desire to be argumentative, combative, litigious and aggravated with the entitled opinions of others no matter how directed or mis-directed they may be.
As it concerns Burke, Braxton, Mikew or you…only time will tell.

My job is to pray…pray that all christians (especially catholic christians) have some sort of personal revelation that brings them to conformity with God’s will. I pray that all peoples have this awakening before God has to send a Warning or a Miracle that makes them see the reality of the supernatural. Hopefully it doesn’t take a Chastisement to do this.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

NewUlm1976_2000: It is clear to me that you have never held a position of leadership, or you would never have made a statement like that.

Consider this…if your 14 year old daughter came to you and wanted to take drugs or get birth-control pills so she could have sex, would you not “enforce the rules”? I certainly hope so…a good father and a good leader does what is best, not what is popular. As I have said, I’ve met Bishop Braxton, and I’ve read what he’s written, he strikes me as nothing if not charitable. If there’s a problem, it’s because he likely said “no” to some heterodox or liberal idea from the local priests.

Judging only by the letters to the editors and the local Catholic blogs, His Excellency has the support of the vast majority of Catholics in the diocese.

bnd.com/editorial/letters/story/288328.html

Why is this a straw-man argument?

Leadership takes many styles, strict enforcement of the rules, while you gain some personal power, you loose much in relation to others.

The best leaders are those who do not seek power and see themselves as equals to others around them. There are also those who actually seek the power of the office and they change when they get X title and all that comes from it. There is a difference between holding an office and using that office.

You can be a good boss without micromanaging and making sure your employees really know who is the boss.

 

[frommi]

It’s interesting to me that a Bishop acting in an ‘orthodox’ manner supercedes his need to be a shepherd to his people, and to act legally.

Look…AGAIN…it still appears to me that both sides of this relationship are standing opposite of one another, and that is a problem for the diocese no matter who is the cause of the problem.

The church doesn’t work when we keep arguing over this sort of stuff.

Bishop Braxton made a mistake misusing those funds, that can be agreed on.

If priests were trying to blackmail him into not accepting his appointment to Belleville…that’s one of the most naive things I’ve ever heard of intelligent people trying to do.

However…this just doesn’t seem to be about ‘orthodox’ priests and ‘liberal’ priests. Now-Archbishop Gregory had to clean up after abuse scandals in his tenure and no one seemed to mind him.

 

[dmelosi]

It’s interesting to me that a Bishop acting in an ‘orthodox’ manner supercedes his need to be a shepherd to his people, and to act legally.

Look…AGAIN…it still appears to me that both sides of this relationship are standing opposite of one another, and that is a problem for the diocese no matter who is the cause of the problem.

The church doesn’t work when we keep arguing over this sort of stuff.

Bishop Braxton made a mistake misusing those funds, that can be agreed on.

If priests were trying to blackmail him into not accepting his appointment to Belleville…that’s one of the most naive things I’ve ever heard of intelligent people trying to do.

However…this just doesn’t seem to be about ‘orthodox’ priests and ‘liberal’ priests. Now-Archbishop Gregory had to clean up after abuse scandals in his tenure and no one seemed to mind him.

Frommi, you are making this an issue that the bishop made a mistake using the funds as if he were trying to hide something. At the time he used those funds, he made it clear then that if it was out of the wrong account he would correct that once it was clear. He put that in writing at that time and is there for you to see. I have to believe that you just missed that and are not trying to insunuate any thing else.

Please read all of the posts…this simply is about many of the priests wanting to change the order of the mass and not being able to get away with it. This is mostly about “priests gone wild”.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

As I see it there is one adult in this situation. His name is Bishop Braxton. His opponents seem like spoiled brats. Discipline them and move on.

CDL

 

[frommi]

Please read all of the posts…this simply is about many of the priests wanting to change the order of the mass and not being able to get away with it. This is mostly about “priests gone wild”.

So, did this behavior just start when Bishop Braxton arrived…is it being insinuated that his predecessors were just not strong bishops?

Again, 2/3rds of the people who ‘work’ for you are in open revolt. That’s not something to ignore and it is not something to simply blame on issues with the GIRM.

As far as “he said if he was wrong he’d repay it”…well, his own finance council told him he was wrong, and he rejected their counsel, then had to find a secret donor to help him crawl out of the hole. I can’t believe someone would honestly believe they had discretionary authority over money for the poor to be spent on vestments.