Belleville Diocesan priests ask Bp. Braxton to resign

[dmelosi]

So, did this behavior just start when Bishop Braxton arrived…is it being insinuated that his predecessors were just not strong bishops?

Again, 2/3rds of the people who ‘work’ for you are in open revolt. That’s not something to ignore and it is not something to simply blame on issues with the GIRM.

As far as “he said if he was wrong he’d repay it”…well, his own finance council told him he was wrong, and he rejected their counsel, then had to find a secret donor to help him crawl out of the hole. I can’t believe someone would honestly believe they had discretionary authority over money for the poor to be spent on vestments.

You are very selective on what you are researching. Why are you leaving out the fact that before he became Bishop, these very priests told him in a closed door meeting that they did not want him there? And that he received more than one phone calls saying that they would get him out. Are you saying that you missed that part of it or are you calliing the bishop a liar?

 

[brockmac]

My general belief is that no priest should publicly call for the resignation of his bishop. The only possible exceptions to this would be if the bishop were a notorious heretic or was caught doing something seriously criminal that brought scandal to the Church. Even in those cases, it is my opinion that the priest(s) should bring their case to the bishop in private and failing that take it privately to the metropolitan archbishop or to the papal nuncio.

I generally see little if any good coming from a priest publicly calling out the shepherd that he has sworn fidelity to. All this does is create or further a lack of trust in the bishop and by extension, the Church, on the part of the laity.

I pray for this diocese and all the people involved.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Can anyone tell me how the childish behvior of these priests is any different than the childish behavior of these six who disrupted the mass at Holy Name Cathedral? These young adults were hauled off to jail. Shouldn’t grown men deserve anything less?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=227884

CDL

 

[frommi]

You are very selective on what you are researching. Why are you leaving out the fact that before he became Bishop, these very priests told him in a closed door meeting that they did not want him there? And that he received more than one phone calls saying that they would get him out. Are you saying that you missed that part of it or are you calliing the bishop a liar?

I think those facts are somewhat irrelevant right now.

Let’s say a group of 5 priests tried some sort of episcopal blackmail…and yet another one left anonymous phone calls…yes that’s in bad form.

But how does 5 priests grow to be 2/3rds of the diocese? You can’t honestly tell me the whole place was against him from the get go.

And if we’re going to use the wayback machine…let’s keep in mind that this bishop has never shown a lack of ability to spend money on himself…both in bishop’s residences in Lake Charles and later in Belleville.

We are again talking about a man who had his new ‘bishops duds’ ready for wearing within 3 days of being appointed to the episcopacy.

I honestly don’t think anyone is lying in this situation. I think both sides are to blame…you seem convinced the bishop is being assailed upon in a way that was not of his own making. I disagree with that point.

 

[dmelosi]

I think those facts are somewhat irrelevant right now.

Let’s say a group of 5 priests tried some sort of episcopal blackmail…and yet another one left anonymous phone calls…yes that’s in bad form.

But how does 5 priests grow to be 2/3rds of the diocese? You can’t honestly tell me the whole place was against him from the get go.

And if we’re going to use the wayback machine…let’s keep in mind that this bishop has never shown a lack of ability to spend money on himself…both in bishop’s residences in Lake Charles and later in Belleville.

We are again talking about a man who had his new ‘bishops duds’ ready for wearing within 3 days of being appointed to the episcopacy.

I honestly don’t think anyone is lying in this situation. I think both sides are to blame…you seem convinced the bishop is being assailed upon in a way that was not of his own making. I disagree with that point.

Not sure where you come up with 5 priests.

Why do you disagree? Do you have first hand experience? I do, I lived in Belleville and went to several of the parishes within the diocese.

I really would like to know where you are getting your facts. Would you care to say? If it is from these posts, then you are been oddly selective on what you believe

Very condescending how you say about how he was dressed before he took over.

Please, tell me what you real reason for this argument is.

 

[Engineer1]

To this discussion I would only add that the $10K he spent on furniture was for the conference room, and the $8K he spent on vestments was for himself, another priest, and 2 deacons.

If anyone has ever purchased conference room chairs, they’ll know that $10K sounds like a lot, but really doesn’t buy much, and certainly is far, far from “gold plating.”

In any event, this is hardly the case of a man spending money on himself…he spent it on needs of the diocese primarily. Yep, it appears he didn’t heed the advice of the Finance Council, bad judgment that he’s admitted to and had found the money to replace what he spent.

The issue isn’t the money, the issue is authority and the priests unwillingness to accept the bishop because they don’t like him.

 

[Engineer1]

Why is this a straw-man argument?

Leadership takes many styles, strict enforcement of the rules, while you gain some personal power, you loose much in relation to others.

The best leaders are those who do not seek power and see themselves as equals to others around them. There are also those who actually seek the power of the office and they change when they get X title and all that comes from it. There is a difference between holding an office and using that office.

You can be a good boss without micromanaging and making sure your employees really know who is the boss.

I guess I think it’s a strawman argument because I don’t see a dicotomy between a firm hand and good leadership. As a father and a military officer, I know that I can’t always make popular decisions, and while I agree that its better to be nice, “nice” is not a requirement for leadership.

Furthermore, I’m not convinced he’s been mean to anyone. Very often when people don’t get their way, they blame the authority figure for being “mean” or “authoritarian”.

Heck, I want my bishop to have a firm hand…there’s far too many people parading around claiming “the spirit of Vatican II” or somesuch nonsense for all sorts of tomfoolery with the liturgy and Catholic teaching. The idea that a “respected Scripture scholar” runs around spouting his advocacy for same-sex marriage, married priests, etc is more than enough for me to see the value of someone in authority saying “no”.

I personally like the bishop, but the fact is that I don’t have to like him…I have to obey him. And so do his priests.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

At the time of ordination a priest places his hands between the hands of the ordaining bishop and swears loyalty to him and his successors. He renews that promise at the Chrism Mass each year.

I think that if I had made such a promise and disagreed with his successor I would feel compelled to resign, not to call for his resignation.

 

[IronHammer]

More evidence on behalf of the Good Bishop:

freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1976437/posts

I knew there was a reason why this man’s single homily was music in my ears! Something this country is sorely in need of is a good measure of authoritarianism. We think that freedom gives us the right to say and do whatever we feel like doing – a very dangerous notion indeed.

 

[flameburns623]

Hello flame,

The Lenten season has left me drained of all desire to be argumentative, combative, litigious and aggravated with the entitled opinions of others no matter how directed or misdirected they may be.
As it concerns Burke, Braxton, Mikew or you…only time will tell.

My job is to pray…pray that all Christians (especially catholic Christians) have some sort of personal revelation that brings them to conformity with God’s will. I pray that all peoples have this awakening before God has to send a Warning or a Miracle that makes them see the reality of the supernatural. Hopefully it doesn’t take a Chastisement to do this.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

The running evidence of this thread suggests that Bp. Braxton is a highly-orthodox bishop appointed as shepherd among a number of priests who are opposed to serving under such a bishop, and who have been looking for ways to make his life miserable. The evidence of the thread(s)s concerning Archbishop Burke suggests he is a highly-orthodox archbishop whose approach irks the mainstream press, who are prepared to use any real or perceived controversy to make his life miserable.

That said: it is fair to wonder aloud whether or not either of these good men might have done differently and thereby made them less of a target for their enemies. In Archbishop Burke’s case I personally think that a somewhat different approach might have circumvented the revolt of St. Stanislaus and the subsequent suborning of Fr. Marek Bozek. (I have to wonder, given Fr. Bozek’s trajectory thus far, if he would not have become a thorn in the side of the Springfield-Cape Girardeau diocese at some point anyhow).

Catholics owe these bishops–and any bishops, good or bad–the respect due to the office of bishop. But Catholics can disagree respectfully with those bishops as well. I don’t think that requires you or I to be combative or argumentative.

 

[qui_est_ce]

More evidence on behalf of the Good Bishop:

freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1976437/posts

I knew there was a reason why this man’s single homily was music in my ears! Something this country is sorely in need of is a good measure of authoritarianism. We think that freedom gives us the right to say and do whatever we feel like doing – a very dangerous notion indeed.

Don’t you just love it when the secular media tries to tell the Church what her teachings should be, but heaven help the bishop who tells his flock what the teachings ARE (no gay marriage, no abortion, etc.)

Yep, it appears he didn’t heed the advice of the Finance Council, bad judgment that he’s admitted to and had found the money to replace what he spent.

The issue isn’t the money, the issue is authority and the priests unwillingness to accept the bishop because they don’t like him.

It wasnt’ just bad judgement, it showed arrogant disregard for Papal policy, and this should be handled by his superiors, not be his subjects. Is this the only matter in which he behaved contrary to the rules?

These priests are using this incident as a strawman for the real reason they want him out, disobedience. The fact that they are acting on threats they made to him in a secret meeting before he was installed is relevant, because they are now acting on that threat. Braxton said that in the meeting, he was threatened with blackmail. Haven’t seen that yet. It would be interesting to hear from the priests who were actually present at this secret meeting.

 

[qui_est_ce]

The evidence of the thread(s)s concerning Archbishop Burke suggests he is a highly-orthodox archbishop whose approach irks the mainstream press, who are prepared to use any real or perceived controversy to make his life miserable.

That said: it is fair to wonder aloud whether or not either of these good men might have done differently and thereby made them less of a target for their enemies. In Archbishop Burke’s case I personally think that a somewhat different approach might have circumvented the revolt of St. Stanislaus and the subsequent suborning of Fr. Marek Bozek.

Archbishop Burke’s style is much different that Braxton’s, Burke being an extremely humble, gentle, and pastoral person. St. Stan’s Board is arrogant. The board illegally changed its bylaws in 2004 to spite the Archbishop. They gave press conferences and drew public attention to what should have been a Church matter. Same as the Belleville priests. I doubt that Archbishop Burke could have done or will ever be able anything that pleases the press, except for agreeng to ordain women and letting anyone say think and do what they want in the name of Catholicism. (See articles on SLU’s basketball coach claiming can be legitimally be both Catholic pro-abortion). And the media loves to tell the Church how she should be run.
stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/religion/story/30545D6CFAE202E1862573D90017AE3B?OpenDocument

stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/bryanburwell/story/B18B7EBCAAB26360862573D9001A8AC0?OpenDocument

(I have to wonder, given Fr. Bozek’s trajectory thus far, if he would not have become a thorn in the side of the Springfield-Cape Girardeau diocese at some point anyhow).

You have a good point, the bishop of Springfield was personally hurt and felt betrayed by Rev. Bozek.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

I guess I think it’s a strawman argument because I don’t see a dicotomy between a firm hand and good leadership. As a father and a military officer, I know that I can’t always make popular decisions, and while I agree that its better to be nice, “nice” is not a requirement for leadership.

Furthermore, I’m not convinced he’s been mean to anyone. Very often when people don’t get their way, they blame the authority figure for being “mean” or “authoritarian”.

Heck, I want my bishop to have a firm hand…there’s far too many people parading around claiming “the spirit of Vatican II” or somesuch nonsense for all sorts of tomfoolery with the liturgy and Catholic teaching. The idea that a “respected Scripture scholar” runs around spouting his advocacy for same-sex marriage, married priests, etc is more than enough for me to see the value of someone in authority saying “no”.

I personally like the bishop, but the fact is that I don’t have to like him…I have to obey him. And so do his priests.

Yet the military leadership model is not applicatable to all ways of life. The office of Bishop is not infallible, like every other office. Nothing in life is infallible if people have anything to do with it. Firm hands often tend to loose a touch of compassion when things get rigid and the humanity is taken out of the discussion. The Church is more than just the CCC, the diverse makeup of people is the greatest part of it, which includes touchy issues like you mention above.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Firm hands often tend to loose a touch of compassion when things get rigid and the humanity is taken out of the discussion.

Au contraire. I use a firm hand with my children because I love them.

The Church is more than just the CCC,

Are you saying the CCC doees not fully divulge the teachings of the Church?

the diverse makeup of people is the greatest part of it, which includes touchy issues like you mention above.

How is heterodoxy “touchy?”

 

[Engineer1]

Yet the military leadership model is not applicatable to all ways of life. The office of Bishop is not infallible, like every other office. Nothing in life is infallible if people have anything to do with it. Firm hands often tend to loose a touch of compassion when things get rigid and the humanity is taken out of the discussion. The Church is more than just the CCC, the diverse makeup of people is the greatest part of it, which includes touchy issues like you mention above.

I don’t disagree with any of that.

Here’s my point, though. As a father (which you are correct to say is more parallel than military leadership styles), if my children continue to ask for things that are not good for them, I have to say no.
My kids may, especially if they are ill-mannered, complain that I’m not being fair or “not listening to them”. I usually respond that “I heard you, I just don’t agree with you.”

I think you perceive “firm hand” with being “mean” or not listening. No true.

A good father must do what’s right, not what’s popular.

Now I recognize that grown men, the pastors in question, are not children. I further recognize that the bishop should listen to their counsel.

But here’s the key point…he is not obligated to take their counsel.

Frankly, he’s heard them out…boy has he heard them out…but just because he’s overruled them doesn’t mean he’s a bad leader. These priests who are in open and public rebellion against our bishop are acting just like the teenager who doesn’t get his way, “you don’t listen to me”, “that’s not fair”, etc.

You’re right, good episcopal leadership is more than enforcing Canon Law or reading from the Catechism…no one is making that case. But good episcopal leadership is decidedly *not * allowing people to do things contrary to the Catholic Faith in the interest of “collaboration.”

We don’t have to *like *our bishop, but we do have to *obey *him.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Any new news? Has the good bishop laicized any of these rascals yet?

CDL

 

[Engineer1]

Any new news? Has the good bishop laicized any of these rascals yet?
CDL

Not yet…

I think the bishop has made his statement and he’s going to let it go at that. I suppose, extending the familial analogy a bit more, he’s going to let their temper tantrum die down and then patiently explain to his “children” why they are wrong, then ask for their obedience while offering his forgiveness.

If any of the priests can’t accept that, they will either “look for [another] opportunity to hand him over” or retire. Since most of the rebels are at or near retirement age, that would be best, I think. It would certainly be best for the Faithful.

 

[mikew262]

Any new news? Has the good bishop laicized any of these rascals yet?

CDL

I believe the current status is awaiting the answer (if one is forthcoming) from the Vatican’s representative who was sent a letter from the Mother Superior of the Nun order in Ruma, IL.

However, having almost 70% of the priests against you, as well as, a leader of a Nun order doesn’t speak well to the status of the diocese. I know some Catholics who have stopped giving money to the Bishop’s Appeal because of this.

In his defense, Bishop Braxton followed a very popular, very open, very down to earth Bishop (Gregory) who was later named the Archbishop of Atlanta. Braxton seems to have several traits that are almost opposite to Gregory’s. Obviously, this can lead to potential problems.

I’m guessing this will eventually all blow over, and the folks who like him will continue to like him, and the ones who don’t, will continue not liking him.

 

[IronHammer]

Any new news? Has the good bishop laicized any of these rascals yet?

CDL

This was just posted today

bnd.com/homepage/story/290879.html

Apparently, it is a sort of response from the opposing side. They allege that they were prompted to meet with the Bishop prior to his installment ceremony by none other than Cardinal Francis George of Chicago and the U.S. Papal Nuncio Archbishop Gabriel Montalvo. These are very surprising and interesting assertions.

 

[Engineer1]

This was just posted today

bnd.com/homepage/story/290879.html

Apparently, it is a sort of response from the opposing side. They allege that they were prompted to meet with the Bishop prior to his installment ceremony by none other than Cardinal Francis George of Chicago and the U.S. Papal Nuncio Archbishop Gabriel Montalvo. These are very surprising and interesting assertions.

Well…of COURSE they were told to meet with the bishop and share their concerns…that’s usually the FIRST thing someone asks when there is a dispute. “Well, have you spoken to Bishop Braxton?” was likely the first question from both the Cardinal and the Archbishop Nuncio…its the grown up way to handle problems (instead of, oh I dunno, for example, crying to the press with public letters…)