Belly Dancing at Church

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My stated purpose was to get opinions as to the ROOT of belly dancing, and I thank all who responded to that history. You were all very helpful.

Additionally, I certainly am indeed concerned with others’ souls, as well as my own. Our youngsters are overwhelmed with immodesty in our TV, advertising, and general culture and many adults just overlook it as part of our environment. I see a “red flag” in belly dancing, and so I speak out. Yes, I DO judge the indecency, but hopefully NOT the persons. It is about time we ALL start judging like that! God is LOVE … TOUGH LOVE.

As for my own soul, God has given me the grace to flee at the appropriate time. *** Modesty is the best Policy.*** Over and Out!
God bless you all,
Joe M.
 
bigjoelex said:
I am attempting to convince an Eastern Rite parish NOT to allow belly dancing since I consider it enticing or seductive and could lead a youngster into sin. However, others say it is “part of our culture.”

Does anyone have information on the roots of belly dancing in mid eastern culture? I wonder of the possibility that it may have been used as a means for the prostitution culture? Nevertheless, would our Blessed Mother be pleased as part of the audience, and in the same building that Her Son is Present in the Blessed Sacrament to be a part of this “entertainment?”
In Christ,
–BigJoeLex:thumbsup:
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I’m an amateur “bellydancer” (its actually correctly called raks sharki; “belly dance” was a term invented by those outside the culture.) I agree that church is not an acceptable place for it, especially not during the Liturgy!

The history of “bellydancing” is interesting; there are actually two main forms: Egyptian and Turkish.

Raks sharki ORIGINALLY was a dance for women, BY women. It was designed to give women a way to ease the pains of childbirth and labor. It was never meant to be a showgirl kind of thing, or used in an obscene way, akin to stripping!

My raks sharki dance teacher, Fatima, is a Moroccan woman who is a very devout Muslim. No men are allowed to observe the class, and she even has curtains up to cover the windows so no men can peek in. She believes very strongly in religious modesty, as I also do as a religious Jew.
 
Hashem,
Thank you very much for your clear response to my question. You have been very helpful.
God bless you,
–Joe
🙂
 
MementoMori3283 said:
Hashem,

You felt the need to post this - Why Jews don’t accept Jesus: simpletoremember.com/vitals/jewsandjesus.htm - along with a link to Chabad, at the end of your reply, may we discuss briefly Isaiah?
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That’s off topic in this thread; its part of my sig line because a number of people on this forum have tried to make overtures to me, to convert me to Catholicism.

To save myself a LOT of typing, and to save time in general, I added that to my sig line so people could get their questions answered without needing to ask me.
 
HashemEchad said:
That’s off topic in this thread; its part of my sig line because a number of people on this forum have tried to make overtures to me, to convert me to Catholicism.

To save myself a LOT of typing, and to save time in general, I added that to my sig line so people could get their questions answered without needing to ask me.
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oh - okay - only that I frequent Chabad often and love the Tanach with Rashi
 
My culture produced pole dancing - THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT DECENT! Belly dancing is quite clearly a form of erotic dance and is therefore totally inappropriate.

All I can say about Fr Deacon’s comment is that it confirms a suspicion I had that certain Eastern Rite clerics hide behind their culture as an excuse for all sorts of strange activities and beliefs.

Does anyone seriously thing that the Patriarch of Constantinople or Moscow would ever even consider this? Of course not.
 
Folks I don’t know I’m 41 year old male and married. I have never thought of belly dancing as erotic. Does nothing for me. Nor does this whole thing about showing your midrif. Actually most people should not show that as it makes them look worse.
 
Reactionary,

We should first of all redefine what it is we are talking about. “Belly Dancing,” as refering to what the average non-Middle Eastern American thinks of because of what TV has presented, would indeed be inappropriate at a church festival. Middle Eastern ethnic dancing, called belly dancing by the ignorant, is perfectly acceptable, just as Slavic dancing is appropriate. Although I dare say you will find some that think that dancing is immodest and innappropriate as well.

As to your suspicion, I am not Middle Eastern but Slavic. I am not hiding behind a culture for it is not mine, but I will defend fellow Eastern Catholics from ignorant and intrusive Latin Catholics, who know nothing of Eastern traditions, liturgical or cultural.

Fr. Deacon Lance
 
Formosus said:
We have lebenese dancing at the lebenese festivals in Roanoke but to my knowledge that is not belly dancing and it does not appear sexually enticing or seductive. I guess I really don’t know what exactly real belly dancing is as opposed to hollywood belly dancing shrugs. It being part of their culture though doesn’t really sound like a good arguement for it. We (as americans I mean) have plenty of seductive elements of american culture but that doesn’t mean they should be glorified in church sponsored festivals.
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Hi Formosus,

You’re quite right in that something shouldn’t be automatically accepted because it is part of culture.
I think some of the wisest statements on such matters are in C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity. (Note that I’m not going to try say either “yes” or “no” to the original question, since I’m pretty ignorant of “belly dancing” and since there are others here who know a lot about it.) Please forgive the lengthy quotation:
We must now consider Christian morality as regards sex, what Christians call the virtue of chastity. The Christian rule of chastity must not be confused with the social rule of ‘modesty’ (in one sense of that word); i.e. propriety, or decency. The social rule of propriety lays down how much of the human body should be displayed and what subjects can be referred to, and in what words, according to the customs of a given social circle. Thus, while the rule of chastity is the same for all Christians at all times, the rule of propriety changes. A girl in the Pacific islands wearing hardly any clothes and a Victorian lady completely covered in clothes might both be equally modest,' proper, or decent, according to the standards of their own societies: and both, for all we could tell by their dress, might be equally chaste (or equally unchaste). Some of the language which chaste women used in Shakespeare's time would have been used in the nineteenth century only by a woman completely abandoned. When people break the rule of propriety current in their own time and place, if they do so in order to excite lust in themselves or others, then they are offending against chastity. But if they break it through ignorance or carelessness they are guilty only of bad manners. When, as often happens, they break it defiantly in order to shock or embarrass others, they are not necessarily being unchaste, but they are being uncharitable: for it is uncharitable to take pleasure in making other people uncomfortable. I do not think that a very strict or fussy standard of propriety is any proof of chastity or any help to it, and I therefore regard the great relaxation and simplifying of the rule which has taken place in my own lifetime as a good thing. At its present stage, however, it has this inconvenience, that people of different ages and different types do not all acknowledge the same standard, and we hardly know where we are. While this confusion lasts I think that old, or old-fashioned, people should be very careful not to assume that young or emancipated’ people are corrupt whenever they are (by the old standard) improper; and, in return, that young people should not call their elders prudes or puritans because they do not easily adopt the new standard. A real desire to believe all the good you can of others and to make others as comfortable as you can will solve most of the problems.
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Case in point:
bigjoelex said:
Interestingly, the “control” remark may be an admission that there indeed could be something immodest. In other words, if I cannot control myself, then there must be something about the dance that could be construed to be immodest, otherwise why make such a comment?
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freesmileys.org/smileys/confused002.gif
 
I am told my grandfather did a mean belly dance…no kidding!

And he could ripple his belly like a snake!

He was a merchant seaman for fifteen years at least, he’d been to Egypt. Sailors get a little crazy sometimes, but they see the world. 👍 Although that was when he was much the younger man, probably in the 1920’s. He could still do it in the 1950’s 😃

I had an old friend from Egypt many years ago, he was brilliant, and had served in the government under Nasser. Quite an accomplishment for a Christian in those days, I think.

He told me wife was a great belly dancer. He suggested that they open a school so she teach it here in the states, but she didn’t want to. Something about “Americans don’t get it”.

Grandpa got it.
 
Reactionary said:
My culture produced pole dancing - THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT DECENT! Belly dancing is quite clearly a form of erotic dance and is therefore totally inappropriate.

** All I can say about Fr Deacon’s comment is that it confirms a suspicion I had that certain Eastern Rite clerics hide behind their culture as an excuse for all sorts of strange activities and beliefs. **

Does anyone seriously thing that the Patriarch of Constantinople or Moscow would ever even consider this? Of course not.
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Excuse me, Fr. Deacon Lance is not hiding behind anything! He is Slavic, the same as my husband. I think you need to step back and take a look at yourself before you go making another comment like that.

He is speaking out for the churches. Now, bellly dance was allowed in the Melkite food festivals until a few years ago - can’t rmember exactly maybe five, before Archbishop Cyril was enthroned. Prior to that one or several churches ‘hired’ belly dancers that were just that, rather erotic in nature. Up to that point, it had only been people within the churches doing the dance according to their traditional dance, and always fully covered with clothing. After that happened the Archbishop banned belly dancing from any food festivals. Now, I am not certain of what Archbishop Cyril has done, but I assume he is in agreement with the ban.

Now if you are referring to a Melkite parish, then you have to look no further than the Eparch for confirmation.
 
Pani,

The majority of American Catholics are uninformed in the ways and practice of the Eastern Rites…

Come to think about it they know little of their own…

james
 
Fr Deacon,

Naturally I would not condemn Ball Room Dancing, Morris Dancing or Slavic Peasant Dancing but it seems highly unlikely to me that anything that could ever be described as ‘Belly Dancing’ could be appropriate. I was recently at a diplomatic ball and such a dancer was employed as a ‘cultural’ experience. It was clearly indecent, the cloths were reveling and the body movements voluptuous. This form of dancing may take skill and be a very old fashioned form of entertainment but I REPEAT would any of the eastern Patriarchs ever allow it in their Church Hall’s? Would St John Chrysostom?
 
I am probably remiss in calling it belly dancing in the first place. That phrase was coined by Sol Bloom for the 1893 World Fair in order to stir up controversy and of course ticket sales. Arab speakers call it raqs sharqi/eastern dance. I have seen it performed at folk festivals by modestly clad women with no sexual overtones. Again the Hollywood sexualized lap dance with Arab veneer is obviously inappropriate. I don’t want, however, to have an entire cultural expression labelled as erotic entertainment due to ignorance and excluded from Church festivals.

Fr. Deacon Lance
 
bigjoelex said:
I am attempting to convince an Eastern Rite parish NOT to allow belly dancing since I consider it enticing or seductive and could lead a youngster into sin. However, others say it is “part of our culture.”

Does anyone have information on the roots of belly dancing in mid eastern culture? I wonder of the possibility that it may have been used as a means for the prostitution culture? Nevertheless, would our Blessed Mother be pleased as part of the audience, and in the same building that Her Son is Present in the Blessed Sacrament to be a part of this “entertainment?”
In Christ,
–BigJoeLex:thumbsup:
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Dear BigJoe,

Eventhough the belly dancing is part of mid eastern culture, I don’t believe that such dancing is part of the worship ritual nor part of usual things shown in the place of worship. Even the mid eastern culture religion should be very strict not to allow this. So, I don’t believe that it is proper to show belly dancing in the church area although it is not part of the ritual ceremony.
 
It seems to me that Catholics of any kind should hesitate to pass judgment on the cultural practices of other “kinds” of Catholic churches. In particulary, attempts by Latin Catholics in the past to bring Eastern Catholics “in line” have not been very beneficial.

Of course, I’m living in the Middle East these days, and, based on my observations, I don’t think most Americans are really in a position to criticize Middle-Easterners for their standards of modesty…
 
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