Ben Stein: Science Leads to Killing People

  • Thread starter Thread starter jaxson
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I sort of enjoy making little holes in distant objects myself. But I don’t see the need for a semiautomatic weapon to do that.

Far as I can see, you’ve got a right to have one, so long as it doesn’t pose an unreasonable threat to others.

And “unreasonable” would apply the same way it applies to free speech. Burden of proof is on the government to show that it is so.
 
I sort of enjoy making little holes in distant objects myself. But I don’t see the need for a semiautomatic weapon to do that.
You realize that semi-automatic just means “one bullet for each pull of the trigger?” A revolver, for instance.
Far as I can see, you’ve got a right to have one, so long as it doesn’t pose an unreasonable threat to others.
Well, that puts my mind at ease. I was afraid that you might not approve. :rotfl:
 
Barbarian observes:
I sort of enjoy making little holes in distant objects myself. But I don’t see the need for a semiautomatic weapon to do that.
You realize that semi-automatic just means “one bullet for each pull of the trigger?” A revolver, for instance.
Technically, a revolver is a repeating arm; not a semi-automatic. A revolver, even a double-action revolver, requires you to cock the hammer before the next shot. A semiautomatic is a weapon that fires a round, cocks the hammer and chambers another round for the next shot automatically.

There was a big issue years ago with federal officers; some wanted to go from revolvers to semi-automatics, but the feds liked the fact that a misfire/jam in a revolver could be cleared with one hand, while it required two hands for a semi-automatic.

Barbarian observes:
Far as I can see, you’ve got a right to have one, so long as it doesn’t pose an unreasonable threat to others.
Well, that puts my mind at ease. I was afraid that you might not approve.
Bill of Rights, you know.
 
We all need to work together on the abortion issue, in ways competent to our expertise. “Personhood” is no more a scientific question than “E=mc2” is a theological question. Scientists who argue for the personhood of the fetus from the moment of conception do so not as scientists, but as believers. Plumbers and truck drivers who argue for the personhood of the fetus from the moment of conception do so not as plumbers and truck drivers, but as believers.

Petrus
I would say scientist who argue that a person is a person from birth are arguing from the standpoint of a scientist who are believers and have fallen into the false premise that they need to leave their faith behind them while acting as scientists. I would say a Catholic is a Catholic in all the roles they engage their talents and gifts in.

At any rate it would behoove scientists to say they cannot determine the beginning of personhood for certain, if that is as far as you can get in that particular argument. For to err on the side of the possibility that an unborn. newly conceived zygotet is a person would be more beneficial than to err on the side in which they are now in error by saying personhood has to do only with other qualitfication, resulting in the death of millions of unborn children.

I had a prominent, local, liberal politician say to me ‘a person becomes a person after they are born and open their eyes and see the light for the first time’! That is how confusing and abritrary the definition of personhood has become because scientists, especially scientists with faith, have failed to speak out and defend the Catholic concept of personhood. Scientists, right now, are the only ones who could possibly begin to speak in a way that could make a difference because ‘science’ has been placed over areas of endeavor to the point of almost worshipping it.Our secular progressive culture has placed science in the pulpit.Science has been given the authority that used to belong to the church.

The political climate has created a wall around the clergy to the point they are afraid to speak out because they fear losing tax protection of church properties. And even when they do speak in out in our government forums it is with the disclaimer from the presiding politicians in our state houses that religion has no voice because of the artificial separation of church and state which has occurred. I have heard this done, so I know they do it.

I believe that a scientist who is a Catholic has the call of his conscience to do everything in his power to sway secular scientists to at the very least consider the possibility that full personhood exists at conception and needs to be protected throughout life to natural death until they prove it is not a person. Why should the need for proof of personhood always fall on the pro-life side, in otherwords?

When and how do you speak up?

God Bless, maryJohnZ
 
The Barbarian said, “They merely have to believe that evolution is consistent with Catholic faith. That is the teaching of the Church, and we are required to accept it.”

You said, “Send me the church document that says Catholics have to accept evolution.”

That’s twisting his words.
I was merely asking for proof and clarification of what he was purporting. what he sent me, a small passage from the Catechism which never mentions evoltion by name was hardly convincing to me at any rate.

Anyway, see my other post on that.

God Bless you,

MaryJohnZ
 
I was merely asking for proof and clarification of what he was purporting. what he sent me, a small passage from the Catechism which never mentions evoltion by name was hardly convincing to me at any rate.
Darwin went all the way through his book, to the last sentence without mentioning evolution by name. But everyone knows what the passage means.

And it is true that the Catechism is not convincing for many, although I would say most Catholics find it to be an authoritative teaching of the Church.
 
The need or necessity for a argument which shows Divine intervention is related to the fact that man alone of all the species is created in God’s own image. there is a sense that something very different occured when man was brought into being in the bibcal accounts. we had one original human ‘father’, named Adam and one ‘mother’ named Eve. They differed from animal life because God intervened in a specific way giving them a higher
nature, both body and soul. The human soul being a house for the Divine spirit. Evolution of a human being from a lower animal form can perhaps account for the formation of a human body but it can not account for that aspect fo divine Presence which is unique to a human being whoise soul is in the state of grace, as the original man and woman would have been before the fall.

I realize I am searching for ways to describe and explain my discomfort with pure Darwinism, but i id find this article that perhaps you could comment on. It does agree with much that you are saying that Catholics can see evolution as compatible with catholic teaching to a degree but it clarifies the points with which a Catholic cannot accept evolution:

"This is important because, in the properly scientific sense, “evolution” as a how question poses no problem for Catholic belief. For decades now, scientists have established a chronology of how life forms succeeded one another over eons of time. It is beyond reasonable doubt that some sort of process has taken place. (As we shall see later, the mechanics of this succession have yet to be fully understood.) Whatever science determines on this how level is compatible with a Catholic principle: that God ordinarily carries out His creative acts in natural ways.

No problems with Christian belief generally arise when “evolution” is loosely used in a broad philosophical sense. This meaning is substantially different from the scientific one above. It may be defined as follows: “an ideological frame of mind which sees the entire universe in terms of matter-in-development and which consciously denies the existence of spiritual or supernatural reality; all phenomena–scientific, historical, economic, and social–are explainable in exclusively material terms.”

This understanding of “evolution” is not scientific, though it derives much prestige from association with the sciences. It is not founded on experimental knowledge or rational deduction. It is rather a preconceived set of attitudes and values, a prejudice that is not merely unscientific, but irrational. For it is altogether credulous to hold that complex organs like the eye are not indicative of an ordering intelligence, but are instead the result of blind chance which of course cannot know or plan the
end (seeing) to which the eye’s single parts combine and evolve. In fact, it is a latter-day form of philosophical materialism which has been with us since the time of the Greeks.

Inasmuch as it is really an outlook on life, it is a kind of religion.
Properly speaking, therefore, this set of beliefs should not be called “evolution” but rather “evolutionism”. To subscribe to creation (which is not the same as “creationism”), that is, the contingent world’s ultimate dependence on a necessary, creative being, is not, on the contrary, an act of religion at all. It is a matter of philosophy, of drawing sure conclusions from incontrovertible premises.

Like the other religion-substitute “isms” of our time, evolutionism has adherents from all walks of life. Some physicists, astronomers, and geneticists believe in it. But so do many journalists, economists, teachers, and historians–and cab-drivers and businessmen and poets. The atheism of a biochemist is really no more significant than that of a file clerk, but it can have more sway on public opinion./COLOR]

The article goes on to explain the church’s stance in more detail along with some examples of inconsistencies in scientific examples commonly used to support evolution in our text books which I won’t go into, but you can read the article online at this link:
ewtn.com/library/humanity/evolutn.txt

Here is what the article said about church teaching on the subject:

*The Church has maintained that the first three chapters of Genesis contain historical truth. Their inspired author used a popular literary form of his day to explain certain historical facts of Creation. These were named specifically by the Pontifical Biblical Commission, with the approval of Pope Pius X in 1909. The official document states that the literal historical meaning of the first three chapters of Genesis could not be doubted in regard to:
"
“the creation of all things by God at the beginning of time; the
special creation of man; the formation of the first woman from the
first man; the unity of the human race; the original happiness of our first parents in the state of justice, integrity, and immortality; the command given by God to man to test his obedience; the transgression of the divine command at the instigation of the devil under the form of a serpent; the degradation of our first parents from that primeval state of innocence; and the promise of a future redeemer.”

Note that the Church says nothing definite about how, in specific detail, God created the world and its various forms of life, or how long any of this took. The only “special creation” mentioned is that of man, who is unique in having a spiritual immortal soul. In the Church’s eyes, Genesis deals with historical fact, not scientific process–with the what of creation, not the how.

In 1950, Pope Pius XII addressed the question of man’s origins more specifically in his encyclical Humani Generis. " *

I hope this explains better than I can what my discomfort is with what science is doing.

God Bless,

MaryJohnZ
 
I hope this explains better than I can what my discomfort is with what science is doing.
The text you pasted is about things science is not doing.

If you’ve been paying attention, scientists here have repeatedly emphasized that science is not philosophic materialism. This straw man is promoted by atheists and fundamentalists, who both ardently wish to convince people that science and faith are incompatible.
 
I realize I am searching for ways to describe and explain my discomfort with pure Darwinism, but i id find this article that perhaps you could comment on. It does agree with much that you are saying that Catholics can see evolution as compatible with catholic teaching to a degree but it clarifies the points with which a Catholic cannot accept evolution:God Bless,
MaryJohnZ
MaryJohnZ, I’ll have to postpone reading this article as today is my preparation day for my graduate seminar on theology and evolution (papers to correct and 200 pages to read!). I’ll try to reply tomorrow.

Petrus
 
I believe that a scientist who is a Catholic has the call of his conscience to do everything in his power to sway secular scientist to at the very least consider the possibility that full personhood exists at conception and needs to be protected throughout life to natural death until they prove it is not a person. Why should the need for proof of personhood always fall on the pro-life side, in otherwords? When and how do you speak up?
God Bless, maryJohnZ
MaryJohnZ, I would certainly hope that Catholic scientists would work to protect life. But “personhood” is a moral and ontological category, not a scientific one, so no amount of medical science can define it. What we need is broader philosophical training across the board, including in elementary schools.

Basing personhood on seeing the light or taking one’s first breath is just silly. Implantation might be a philosophically more relevant contributory factor. But again, “personhood” is no more observable by medical science than the wrongness of murder is observable by forensic science.

Petrus
 
I’m reminded of Ernst Mayr’s comment that biologists were once expected to be trained in philosophy as an important part of their education.

I’ve never taken a formal course in philosophy at all. By the late 60s, one barely had time to do minor work, much less humanities.

It’s been hard catching up. But worth it.
 
I’m reminded of Ernst Mayr’s comment that biologists were once expected to be trained in philosophy as an important part of their education.
I’ve never taken a formal course in philosophy at all. By the late 60s, one barely had time to do minor work, much less humanities.
It’s been hard catching up. But worth it.
Barbarian, I absolutely agree that philosophy is an important part of any education. But as I’m sure you know, scientists acting as scientists are not competent to rule on philosophical issues like personhood; they may certainly do so as philosophers. Gunmakers as designers of cop-killer bullets are not competent to rule on philosophical issues like murder. They may certainly do so as philosophers.

Petrus
 
Barbarian, I absolutely agree that philosophy is an important part of any education. But as I’m sure you know, scientists acting as scientists are not competent to rule on philosophical issues like personhood;
True. Not part of the job description. Mayr happened to have been trained in philosophy. There are also philosophers like Kuhn and Popper, who became knowledgeable in science.
 
The text you pasted is about things science is not doing.

If you’ve been paying attention, scientists here have repeatedly emphasized that science is not philosophic materialism. This straw man is promoted by atheists and fundamentalists, who both ardently wish to convince people that science and faith are incompatible.
Please explain why you think atheists would want science and faith to appear as compatible? I am interested in that statement and what you mean by it.

I believe , in the end, science and faith are compatible when they are correctly applied. I am defining science as true knowledge and understanding about the nature of the world and creation, as well as all the means and approaches to come to that true knowledge which are fairly and justly pursued. So you have two necessary intersecting points between faith and science already:
the manner in which scientists do their research must be just, fair and onets and respectful of life. Also science for Catholics cannot contradict key points in our faith.

The article I pasted was talking about specific points Catholics could not lose sight of in any discussion about evolution. These were points they were bound by faith to safeguard. So there is another manner in which faith and science, at least for Catholics,has specific boundaries. They were stated as:

1. The question of the origin of man’s body from pre-
existing and living matter is a legitimate matter of inquiry for
natural science. Catholics are free to form their own opinions, but they should do so cautiously; they should not confuse fact with conjecture, and they should respect the Church’s right to define matters touching on Revelation. 2. Catholics must believe, however, that the human soul was created immediately by God. Since the soul is a spiritual substance it is not brought into being through transformation of matter, but directly by God, whence the special uniqueness of each person. 3. All men have descended from an individual, Adam, who has transmitted original sin to all mankind. Catholics may not, therefore, believe in “polygenism,” the scientific hypothesis that mankind descended from a group of original humans.


So while Catholics are not like evangelicals in accepting ‘creationism’, we also do not accept ‘evolutionism’, as stated in the article. For Catholics, then, faith and science need to be compatible on some points inorder to be accepted. We are not literalists, but we are believers.

I do not see ID as being automatically interpreted as ‘creationism’ or as a literal translation of the bible. I merely see it as an approach open to the evidence of patterns and designs in nature.
The conclusion from that evidence is open to interpretation. It certainly does make the idea that creation was a matter of chance less likely.

God Bless,

mary John Zore
 
But “personhood” is a moral and ontological category, not a scientific one, so no amount of medical science can define it. What we need is broader philosophical training across the board, including in elementary schools.,
But again, “personhood” is no more observable by medical science than the wrongness of murder is observable by forensic science.

Petrus
Can’t scientist use logic to define this?

Since the zygot is the human being, the individual at that stage of their life with all the capacity and possibilities that this early stage possesses, and since it is obviously alive, since it is growing and developing, since it possesses the key ingrediants for a specific fully developed person, then I would say it must be that person at that earliest stage. The DNA spells: human being.
No one can become mature without first going through this stage, so it must be a stage that is part of personhood.

It strikes me that there is similarity between not accepting that God graced the first man, Adam, with a living soul in an instantaneous manner, not over time and the fact that a soul is granted instantaneously, not over time, to the newly conceived unborn child. .

When Christ was conceived in Mary, it was instantaneous, was it not? Christ lived as human being completely, including these early stages of life… He did not despise them, and neither should a Catholic scientist or any lay person.It teaches me the meaning of “PRESENCE”…how mysterious and important it is without action, word or accomplishment orther than the sacredness of “Being”.

If scientist are bent on keeping all philosophy separate from what they do and say, then what boundaries keeps them from pursuing any form of research and in any manner?

Without some faith and morals scientists are not held to any ethical considerations in their research and conclusions. The scientists of Nazi Germany are an example of what that leads to.
So I would guess that most scientist would say their work is influenced is some way by some manner by some kind of faith and morals.Or there must be some kind of ethical foundation scientists are guided by…yes or no?

Explain to me the problem with using ID to help create some kind of bridge between science and faith. what I see right now in terms of abortion, genetic engeneering, combining cow eggs and human DNA, selling fetal tissues and body parts…all these things sound like something from hell to me, and they all come out of advancements in science and how those things are applied.The sense of morality in regards to the sacredness of life has been damaged so much.

Perhaps you can convinve me that ben Stein is wrong about ID, but it will be hard to convince me that modern day science doesn’t need some kind of intervention.

God Bless,
Mary John Zore
 
Also noteworthy is the fact that key public defenders of Darwin involved in the Dover trial who were featured in PBS’s “Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial” documentary have strong ties to secular humanist groups. For example, Eugenie Scott is Executive Director of the National Center for Science Education. She is also a public signer of the Third Humanist Manifesto, an aggressive statement of the humanist agenda to **create a world with “without supernaturalism” **based upon the view that “[h]umans are… the result of unguided evolutionary change” and the universe is “self-existing.”5 Similarly, Dover plaintiffs’ expert Barbara Forrest, also featured in the PBS show, is a long time board member of the New Orleans Secular Humanist Association.

Indeed, PBS-NOVA’s star theistic evolutionary biologist Ken Miller has claimed in five editions of his textbooks that evolution works “without either plan or purpose” and is “random and undirected.”7 Two additional editions of Miller’s textbooks state: “Darwin knew that accepting his theory required believing in philosophical materialism, the conviction that matter is the stuff of all existence and that all mental and spiritual phenomena are its by-products.”8 Harvard paleontologist and author Richard Lewontin explains how this materialism is an overriding assumption propping Darwinian thought:

"[W]e have a prior commitment … to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to … produce material explanations… [T]hat materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door."9

Finally, **leading Darwinian philosopher of science Michael Ruse admits that “for many evolutionists, evolution has functioned … akin to being a secular religion” **whose main doctrine is “a commitment to a kind of naturalism.” Is it possible that there is more propping up the support of Darwinism than the mere empirical evidence?
 
Please explain why you think atheists would want science and faith to appear as compatible?
You misread it. I pointed out that fundamentalists and atheists have an agenda to show that faith and science are incompatible.
  1. The question of the origin of man’s body from pre-
    existing and living matter is a legitimate matter of inquiry for
    natural science. Catholics are free to form their own opinions, but they should do so cautiously; they should not confuse fact with conjecture, and they should respect the Church’s right to define matters touching on Revelation.
That’s all evolution does. It can only talk about the body, not man’s soul.
So while Catholics are not like evangelicals in accepting ‘creationism’, we also do not accept ‘evolutionism’, as stated in the article.
Evolutionism, whatever that is, isn’t evolutionary theory.
I do not see ID as being automatically interpreted as ‘creationism’ or as a literal translation of the bible.
It’s recycled creationism. It is a religion, by the admission of the guys who invented it. The fact that they took a YE creationist tract (Of Pandas and People), cut out “God” and inserted “designer”, makes it clear it’s just creationism with God in disguise. A terrible insult to Him.
I merely see it as an approach open to the evidence of patterns and designs in nature.
Many of the leaders of this religion have bitterly complained about science finding patterns in nature. So far, no one has found anything designed in nature, though.
The conclusion from that evidence is open to interpretation. It certainly does make the idea that creation was a matter of chance less likely.
Since Phillip Johnson, one of the founders of ID, has said he thinks the designer might be a space alien, it seems they have dispensed with the need for a creator entirely.
 
Please explain why you think atheists would want science and faith to appear as compatible? I am interested in that statement and what you mean by it.
Please don’t twist his words. Barbarian said “This straw man is promoted by atheists and fundamentalists, who both ardently wish to convince people that science and faith are incompatible.”

In other words, both fundamentalists and atheists have the desire to argue that science and religious faith are incompatible, and that you have to choose one or the other.

Petrus
 
Please don’t twist his words. Barbarian said “This straw man is promoted by atheists and fundamentalists, who both ardently wish to convince people that science and faith are incompatible.”

In other words, both fundamentalists and atheists have the desire to argue that science and religious faith are incompatible, and that you have to choose one or the other.

Petrus
I did misread the words of the post. I was not trying to misquote or ywist his words.

I now see his point. Let me think about it.

God Bless, maryJohnz
 
I did misread the words of the post. I was not trying to misquote or ywist his words.

I now see his point. Let me think about it.

God Bless, maryJohnz
OK, MaryJohnZ – I’m sorry for jumping to conclusions. Have a good weekend and a blessed Trinity Sunday!

Petrus
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top