Ben Stein: Science Leads to Killing People

[tomarin]

Look people, newsflash: Almost EVERYONE 100 years ago was on the eugenics bandwagon. Religious, non-religious, black or white, whatever political persuasion… back in those days you can find promotion of certain eugenic ideals from everyone from scientists to business men to Popes and so forth. It’s like how blood letting for many centuries was a universal accepted practice and fact.

that’s incorrect. there were some religious people and christians of the “modernist” stripe who lent some respectablilty to the cause of eugenics by promoting it, but on the whole most traditional christians (and certainly all catholics) spoke out loudly and often against it on the grounds that it contradicts the moral precepts of christianity.

g.k. chesterton made exposing the absurdities of eugenics something of a personal crusade – see his collection of essays Eugenics and Other Evils: amazon.com/Eugenics-Other-Evils-Scientifically-Organized/dp/1587420023/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209740813&sr=8-1

 

[Humanum_Genus]

Ask your daughter if she has ever been to a scientific conference. If she has, she knows how questioning science is.What questions are not allowed? God? If you know of any science that can detect God, bring it up. It will be discussed.

What about those who want to teach palm reading is physiology classes? Should we be open to that? What about astrology in astrophysics departments? Be careful what you ask for when you ask that ALL questions be put on the table. Remember, a lot of those questions have been asked and answered.

Peace

Tim

Question is will scientists who believe in astrology or palm reading ever lose their jobs because of their belief in such things?

Well that’s exactly what happened to scientists who believe in creationism and intelligent design.

 

[Orogeny]

Question is will scientists who believe in astrology or palm reading ever lose their jobs because of their belief in such things?

Well that’s exactly what happened to scientists who believe in creationism and intelligent design.

Who lost their jobs because of their belief in ID? No one in that film did. Maybe you agree with what happened to Christine Comer here in Texas. That is the one person I know of who was fired because of their stance on ID.

Peace

Tim

 

[Humanum_Genus]

Who lost their jobs because of their belief in ID? No one in that film did. Maybe you agree with what happened to Christine Comer here in Texas. That is the one person I know of who was fired because of their stance on ID.

Peace

Tim

Everyone who lost their job featured in the film lost their jobs because of their belief in creationism or ID.

And here is another one.

____________________________________________________-

Intelligent design costs prof his job
Regents reject tenure request without evidence, testimmony

Guillermo Gonzale

Iowa State University regents, who earlier ruled against accepting evidence or hearing testimony from a professor in a dispute over the school’s denial of his tenure, now have turned down his appeal.

The case involves Guillermo Gonzalez, an honored assistant professor of astronomy who has been actively working on theories of intelligent design, an effort that ultimately cost him his job, supporters say. Tenure is roughly the equivalent of a lifetime appointment.

The school has continued to deny the handling of Gonzalez’ case was related to his support of ID, even though the Des Moines Register documented e-mails that confirmed Gonzalez’ colleagues wanted him flushed out of the system for that reason.

wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=55826

 

[Orogeny]

Everyone who lost their job featured in the film lost their jobs because of their belief in creationism or ID.

And here is another one.

____________________________________________________-

Intelligent design costs prof his job
Regents reject tenure request without evidence, testimmony

Guillermo Gonzale

Iowa State University regents, who earlier ruled against accepting evidence or hearing testimony from a professor in a dispute over the school’s denial of his tenure, now have turned down his appeal.

The case involves Guillermo Gonzalez, an honored assistant professor of astronomy who has been actively working on theories of intelligent design, an effort that ultimately cost him his job, supporters say. Tenure is roughly the equivalent of a lifetime appointment.

The school has continued to deny the handling of Gonzalez’ case was related to his support of ID, even though the Des Moines Register documented e-mails that confirmed Gonzalez’ colleagues wanted him flushed out of the system for that reason.

wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=55826

You have bought into Stein’s propaganda. NONE of those people were fired for their belief in ID. Some weren’t even fired at all.

Peace

Tim

 

[tonyl]

The comments comparing Michael Moore and ben Stein did not address the fact that Michael Morre’s films were in theaters, despite the fact they were pure propaganda while ben Steins have been blocked in my area at least, . . .

Expelled was shown on 1,052 screens nationwide on its opening weekend.
Fahrenheit 9/11 was shown on 868 screens nationwide on its opening weekend. And that was his most successful.

Of course, its availability is irrelevant to a discussion about the tactics and dishonesty used.

 

[Humanum_Genus]

You have bought into Stein’s propaganda. NONE of those people were fired for their belief in ID. Some weren’t even fired at all.

Peace

Tim

I see that you didn’t talk about Guillermo Gonzalez. I wonder why.

Maybe because its so easy to dismiss the exposes of expelled but the exposes of wnd.com are not so easily dismissed.

You claim expelled has lied.

Well i say the movie is telling the truth. And the stories from wnd.com prove that the atheists in the scientific community are engaging in a stalinist campaign to attack those who don’t follow their atheist darwinists\ agenda. Which is what the movie was trying to show us.

And besides, i highly doubt if their interviews of those atheists and other scientists are lies.

 

[Orogeny]

I see that you didn’t talk about Guillermo Gonzalez. I wonder why.

Him too. He wasn’t fired.

Maybe because its so easy to dismiss the exposes of expelled but the exposes of wnd.com are not so easily dismissed.

Actually, they are much easier as far as I am concerned.

You claim expelled has lied.

Yep.

Well i say the movie is telling the truth. And the stories from wnd.com prove that the atheists in the scientific community are engaging in a stalinist campaign to attack those who don’t follow their atheist darwinists\ agenda. Which is what the movie was trying to show us.

Sure they are. Heck, you might want to be careful. They might be monitoring your forum activities right now!

And besides, i highly doubt if their interviews of those atheists and other scientists are lies.

How about their interviews of Christian scientists who completely reject ID? Did you believe their interviews in the film?

Peace

Tim

 

[tonyl]

Everyone who lost their job featured in the film lost their jobs because of their belief in creationism or ID.

So far, not one of the people mentioned (Sternberg, Crocker, Gonzolez . . .) was fired for a belief in ID. Heck, not one of them was fired at all.

And here is another one.

____________________________________________________-

Intelligent design costs prof his job . . .
wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=55826

He wasn’t fired, he just wasn’t awarded tenure. For good reason. You don’t give a lifetime contract to someone who’s research output, track record training graduate students, and funding are questionable. For more on the story try here, or here.

 

[Humanum_Genus]

Him too. He wasn’t fired. Actually, they are much easier as far as I am concerned.Yep.Sure they are. Heck, you might want to be careful. They might be monitoring your forum activities right now!How about their interviews of Christian scientists who completely reject ID? Did you believe their interviews in the film?

Peace

Tim

Sure he wasn’t

Let’s just say that i would rather believe a real pro-Christian website like wnd.com than someone who doesn’t seem so.

Why wouldn’t i?

Just because some so-called “christian” scientists reject ID doesn’t mean ID and creationism is wrong and shouldn’t be discussed or allowed in scientific discussions.

Afterall “catholics” like John Kerry and Nancy Pelosi promote abortion and sodomism, doens’t mean the pro-life pro-marriage and pro-family movement is wrong.

Perhaps pro-life and pro-marriage people should also be fired for their beliefs, o wait i forgot, they already are, and so are scientists who believe in creationism and ID.

 

[Orogeny]

I see that you didn’t talk about Guillermo Gonzalez. I wonder why.

I see that you didn’t respond to my question regarding Christine Comer. I wonder why.

Peace

Tim

 

[Humanum_Genus]

So far, not one of the people mentioned (Sternberg, Crocker, Gonzolez . . .) was fired for a belief in ID. Heck, not one of them was fired at all.

He wasn’t fired, he just wasn’t awarded tenure. For good reason. You don’t give a lifetime contract to someone who’s research output, track record training graduate students, and funding are questionable. For more on the story try here, or here.

O he wasn’t fired just not given tenure, and why wasn’t he given tenure? because of his beliefs in creationism and ID.

sorry, but “not awarded tenure” is just another euphemism for getting fired, especially in the academe.

You double talk and technical gobbledy gook may work elsewhere like in the scientific community, but it doesn’t work with people who have common sense.

 

[Humanum_Genus]

I see that you didn’t respond to my question regarding Christine Comer. I wonder why.

Peace

Tim

Maybe because i don’t have to, you already said she was fired for her beliefs supporting creationism and ID.

That supports what expelled has been trying to say.

What is there for me to respond to?

 

[Orogeny]

Sure he wasn’t

Let’s just say that i would rather believe a real pro-Christian website like wnd.com than someone who doesn’t seem so.

Why wouldn’t i?

Actually, there is no reason. You keep on believing what is written in WND.

Just because some so-called “christian” scientists reject ID doesn’t mean ID and creationism is wrong and shouldn’t be discussed or allowed in scientific discussions.

“So-called”? Really?

Afterall “catholics” like John Kerry and Nancy Pelosi promote abortion and sodomism, doens’t mean the pro-life pro-marriage and pro-family movement is wrong.

With logic like that, how can I possibly argue with you.

Perhaps pro-life and pro-marriage people should also be fired for their beliefs, o wait i forgot, they already are, and so are scientists who believe in creationism and ID.

Well, if you want to believe the propaganda film, please do. However, I hope you would take some time and do some research (other than WND or Stein’s film) on those people who were allegedly fired for their beliefs in creationism/ID (although I will give you this much - at least you make the connection between the two). If you really look, you will find a competely different story than either of those two sources want you to find.

Peace

Tim

 

[tomarin]

O he wasn’t fired just not given tenure, and why wasn’t he given tenure? because of his beliefs in creationism and ID.

sorry, but “not awarded tenure” is just another euphemism for getting fired, especially in the academe.

You double talk and technical gobbledy gook may work elsewhere like in the scientific community, but it doesn’t work with people who have common sense.

academics are denied tenure all the time, and usually not because of an ideological witchhunt. it’s usually because of poor quality or small amount of academic output in peer-reviewed journals.

 

[Orogeny]

Maybe because i don’t have to, you already said she was fired for her beliefs supporting creationism and ID.

That supports what expelled has been trying to say.

What is there for me to respond to?

Nope. She wasn’t fired for her beliefs supporting creationism/ID. Again, a little research would be beneficial for you. After you do check that out (assuming, of course, that you do), I would be interested in your thoughts as to why her case wasn’t included in the film.

Peace

Tim

 

[Orogeny]

O he wasn’t fired just not given tenure, and why wasn’t he given tenure? because of his beliefs in creationism and ID.

Once again, do a little research. You will find that you have been fed a line of propaganda about this guy.

sorry, but “not awarded tenure” is just another euphemism for getting fired, especially in the academe.

Yep.

You double talk and technical gobbledy gook may work elsewhere like in the scientific community, but it doesn’t work with people who have common sense.

Or those who don’t understand what it takes for a professor to receive tenure.

Peace

Tim

 

[tonyl]

O he wasn’t fired just not given tenure, and why wasn’t he given tenure? because of his beliefs in creationism and ID.

No, he didn’t get tenure because 1) his research output dropped of precipitously after starting at the University, 2) He didn’t do a good job mentoring graduate students, and 3) He didn’t get the funding that would be required for him to do research at a high level. (without external funding you can’t pay grad students, buy equipment, rent time on equipment, etc.) He was fully aware of this last reason, since, according to him, he had been told in his previous reviews that he needed to bring in more external funding.

sorry, but “not awarded tenure” is just another euphemism for getting fired, especially in the academe.

No, it’s an honest and accurate statement.

You double talk and technical gobbledy gook may work elsewhere like in the scientific community, but it doesn’t work with people who have common sense.

I think you mean my honesty in conversation and desire for other people to be honest in their rhetoric. Yes that does work with the scientific community, and from my experience, works well with people who have common sense.

 

[tonyl]

Maybe because i don’t have to, you already said she was fired for her beliefs supporting creationism and ID.

That supports what expelled has been trying to say.

Um no, you have it backwards. Let me point you to her story.

 

[The_Barbarian]

My wife and I went to ISU as undergrads. I was there last year, and talked to some people. Gonzales’s output of publishable work dropped precipitously in the last few years, he ceased to attract grants (which is how research is most often financed) and his graduate students weren’t doing well.

He had ceased to be a productive scholar. And like many other professors with the same record, he did not get tenure. If there was a grand conspiracy, as Stein keeps proclaiming, Gonzales sure made it easy for them. They can simply point out that other professors with the same record got the same result.

Stein, when he was working for Nixon, wrote speaches about the communists under every bed. Now it’s about evolutionists hiding in your garage or whatever.

Comer’s firing was a good example of the sort of thing IDers do when they get power themselves. One such crackpot recently lost his job at NASA, after he pressured researchers to rewrite scientific reports regarding climate and other things. Turns out he was a political appointee of the Bush administration, who had faked his resume. But if that hadn’t come out, he’d still be trying to suppress any dissent.