Ben Stein: Science Leads to Killing People

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LOL. Barbarian, you truly are a card.

“MY Darwin quotes are more accurate than YOUR Darwin quotes!”

Wheeeeee!

“You’re traveling through another dimesnsion…”
He is indeed a card. This is one of the funnier things I’ve seen from him.

Supposedly you took Darwin’s quotes from people who hate Darwin, so therefore, those quotes by Darwin don’t count. 😃

How about if he tries the Life and Letters of Charles Darwin which is available in full text on-line (provided by the Darwin-hating Google books).

Here you can see where they provided the actual text – which looks just like the little bits and pieces that Wolseley found somewhere.

books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=nmFIAAAAMAAJ&dq=Life+and+Letters+of+Charles+Darwin&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=Lx9e-XsXg8&sig=oNm4r7c5eMyDmZy0B8XFLc9OpwY&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA278,M1

Yes, the reality is no longer the G-rated version of the holy and devout Charles Darwin anymore.
 
On a related topic, there’s a new book that indicates that the poor guy did have some serious problems beyond his odd ideas about species.
There is evidence that he plagerized and cheated Alfred Russell Wallace for the material for Origin of the Species.
The Darwin Conspiracy, Roy Davies (2008)
Actually, particulars of Wallace and Darwin are well-known.

Darwin’s papers on his theory of evolution date from the 1830s. Wallace came up with almost the same theory about 1850. Darwin first became aware of Wallace’s theory when Wallace sent him a draft of a book in 1858.

The “plagiarism” story is just more of that stuff from people who hate Darwin. Quote-mining and even fabrication of “quotes” is S.O.P. for them. Sad that they think they are defending God by lying for Him.
 
You know I was gone for a week on a road trip but sometimes thoughts kind of jell while you are gone or a light bulb goes on in some way and I began to see that Darwin’s complete insistance that the human person is not different from animals in kind …only in degree…and that whole approach which tends to negate the idea of the human being having a special dignity was very similiar to the old Abigensean heresy!

From the Catholic encyclopedia:

“The dualism of the Albigenses was also the basis of their moral teaching. Man, they taught, is a living contradiction. Hence, the liberation of the soul from its captivity in the body is the true end of our being. To attain this, suicide is commendable; it was customary among them in the form of the endura (starvation). The extinction of bodily life on the largest scale consistent with human existence is also a perfect aim. As generation propagates the slavery of the soul to the body, perpetual chastity should be practiced. Matrimonial intercourse is unlawful; concubinage, being of a less permanent nature, is preferable to marriage. Abandonment of his wife by the husband, or vice versa, is desirable. Generation was abhorred by the Albigenses even in the animal kingdom. Consequently, abstention from all animal food, except fish, was enjoined. Their belief in metempsychosis, or the transmigration of souls, the result of their logical rejection of purgatory, furnishes another explanation for the same abstinence. To this practice they added long and rigorous fasts. The necessity of absolute fidelity to the sect was strongly inculcated. War and capital punishment were absolutely condemned.”

So what do we have in our day?
  1. Dualism…Darwin and science stemming from a Darwin view nullifies the idea that the soul and body are equally important in understanding the human person. Like Kant
    Darwin and modern science only acknowledge the physical world – all we can observe and know. Darwn even tried to explain thought, morality and conscience from physically known phenomena. The higher reality of the soul is simply not matter for discussion because it is considered ‘unknowable’. Doubt is cast on whether it even exists.
2…Matrimonial intercourse is not respected as a life giving, or at least the growing tendency to say that a homosexual couples, in their relations, are equal to heterosexual couples, strongly implies that marriage and generation/procreation are not worthy of consideration when it comes to even defining the meaning of marriage.
  1. Generation was abhorred by the Abigenses!!!..much like our “Margaret Sangar- Plaanned Parenthood -Eugenic”
    culture which pushes birth control, abortion, sterilization, and would advocate for one or two children perfamily at the most, why? *Because children are considered a burdern…slavery… *
    And the same value system underlined sterilizatrion of different
    people considered weak and undesirable by the Nazis
4.suicide is commendable…even large numbers of people being killed…
sounds a bit like extermination camps, or abortion, or killing off the ‘poor’ people by PP clinics and RU486,
But that kind of value can only come when the human person, body and soul, is not recognized. The Albigenses saw the soul trapped in a vile body, and Darwin saw the human person as only an evolved ape…nothing more. certainlt no reason given to think of the human body or person as sacred in any way.

5.That evil is from the nature which created our body can also be found in Darwin who is quoted in his 'M" notebook as saying:

*" Our descent, then, is the origin of our evil passions!!–**The Devil under form of Baboon is our grandfather!

The meaning implied in that quote is clear. The natural forces which formed our bodies were considered by Darwin not to be the God we believe in, the All Beneficient Good God, but rather a force of evil. The agnosticsm of Darwin coupled with this negative view of the forces forming the human being cannot lead to seeing the human person as beautiful, good, precious, in any way.
It woulod lead to a materialistic, calculated view of life and society. In the wrong hands it would lead to death on a massive scale.

In Christ, maryJohnZ
 
You know I was gone for a week on a road trip but sometimes thoughts kind of jell while you are gone or a light bulb goes on in some way and I began to see that Darwin’s complete insistance that the human person is not different from animals in kind …only in degree…
Of course, as you know, he didn’t say that. What even your own quote of Darwin shows, was that he thought humans had a spiritual side that animals didn’t. And of course, his earlier writings that humans have a right to freedom and life that animals don’t. I don’t understand why you think these are merely differences in degree. That is not what the Church teaches, Mary.

The idea that the body is corrupt stands in stark contrast to Darwin’s statement:

**There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved. **
So what do we have in our day?
  1. Dualism…Darwin and science stemming from a Darwin view nullifies the idea that the soul and body are equally important in understanding the human person.
Based on his comment that man’s spiritual side is beyond the reach of science, I’d say he thought that was more important.
Like Kant
Darwin and modern science only acknowledge the physical world
Mary, you saw his comment regarding man’s “spiritual powers”, and his acknowledgement of God as creator of life. Science can’t see beyond the physical world, but scientists can, as Darwin did.
all we can observe and know. Darwn even tried to explain thought, morality and conscience from physically known phenomena.
Why would it bother you if God used nature to make a few of our attributes, when it doesn’t bother you that He used it to make some others? This looks like nothing more than wounded pride.
The higher reality of the soul is simply not matter for discussion because it is considered ‘unknowable’.
No. It is merely untestable by science.
Doubt is cast on whether it even exists.
No. Science is unable to cast doubt on the supernatural.

(stuff on homosexuals)

I wasn’t aware that Darwin endorsed homosexuality. Do you have a checkable source for that?
Generation was abhorred by the Abigenses!!!.
I wasn’t aware that Darwin was opposed to having children. He certainly didn’t mind doing it himself. Do you have a checkable source for that allegation?
culture which pushes birth control, abortion, sterilization, and would advocate for one or two children perfamily at the most, why? Because children are considered a burdern…slavery…
And the same value system underlined sterilizatrion of different
people considered weak and undesirable by the Nazis
Your people, remember? Darwin and the Darwinists condemned such things.
4.suicide is commendable…even large numbers of people being killed…
Do you have a checkable source for Darwin commending suicide?
That evil is from the nature which created our body can also be found in Darwin who is quoted in his 'M" notebook as saying:
Our descent, then, is the origin of our evil passions!!-
Our descent is the origin of our evil passions. Original sin is that origin.

If your people had listened to Darwin’s declaration that to even let the least of humans die was “overwhelming evil”, the Holocaust would not have happened.

But Luther’s ideas triumphed over Darwin’s in the Third Reich. And “The Jews and Their Lies”, rather than “The Descent of Man” became the guiding principle for Hitler. This is why the Jews are so angry with Ben Stein for his libel against science; he blames those who opposed the Holocaust, and made excuses for those who committed it.
 
The idea that Darwinian ethics and the slbigensian heresy can be matched up in terms of values does not say that the two match completely. I believe that evil tends to go from one form and when it is repudiated, and you think it has been defeated it finds a way to warf into another form. Often it takes time and clarity to realiz it is indeed the same fault of philosophy under a new guise. Of cource there will be some differences otherwise it would be obvious that it was the same thing and easily recognized. I was drawing compariosons between the albigenses heresy and Darwin
based on the fact that both separate the material and the spiritual. Both imply that evil can be found in the material…
and even the ever present nature of violence and survival found in Dawrin shows that he was acutely aware of the negatives in nature.

However I won’t pursue the agument much further as it is off track and will only throw confusion. We have gotten to a point where
it is clear from Darwin’s notebooks and personal memores that he lost faith in God, that he was prone toward a materialistic view, that he did not seek to emphasize the noble in every human person but rather went out of his way to show people were evolved animals. You continually deny that last point yet Darwin seemed very purposeful in making that his main point. His “Descent of Man” draws one parallel after another trying to show that man’s attributes, including his moral conscience and
behaviors, ability to reflect, all can be found in some way in animal behavior. He tries to show that these evolve through material process. Whether darwin truly believes in the apiritual is
doubtful based on the testimonies of his journals and personal writings which attest to his own loss of faith. You simply cannot deny those writings whether they are posted by people who like or dislike Darwin, they are quotes from Darwin.

I have pointed out that Darwin neglected to address the many behaviours of mankind which can be traced to ancient times and which have no counterpart in animal behaviors. These surely are evidence that man is not just an animal…not different in any way, only in degree from animals.

If compassion ‘evolved’ as Darwin seems to propose, then why do people from such ancient times have such complex burial mounds and practices. Certainly this does not have a counter
part in the animals. Human beings at these early time periods should not have had such a propensity to compassion, to sharing and caring for each other, at least not if they were mere animals.

From an article on evilution:

"In 1911, the famous French anatomist, Marcellin Boule, carefully studied a recently discovered Neanderthal skeleton. This specimen was important for it was the first nearly complete skeleton of an ancient man. Using it, science could understand the details of a typical Neanderthal’s body structure.

Boule’s reconstruction of Neanderthal showed a hunched-over, misshapen creature with bent legs and face thrust forward, not unlike the stance of a gorilla. This depiction was highly influential for decades thereafter; it was reproduced in textbooks, drawings, and museum displays around the world. But later discoveries of Neanderthal finds cast doubt on Boule’s work. Then in 1957, a team of anatomists re-examined Boule’s original
skeleton and found a serious source of error: the Neanderthal man had suffered from a case of severe arthritis. His stance was indeed hunched-over, but it was not genetic in origin and was not typical. Today, we believe that ancient people walked and stood erect almost exactly as we do."

".The image of ferocity was also without factual support. Over the years, in fact, many archaeological sites have shown evidence of cooperation and even compassion among primitive people. Numerous fossils came from carefully prepared graves, some as old as 100,000 years. In several instances, the deceased had been old and crippled (like Boule’s specimen) and had received
care for years before being laid to rest. In one grave, a youth had been buried carefully on his side, with one arm tucked under his head, as if he were sleeping; in one hand, he held a beautifully carved quartz knife. In another grave, archaeologists found the body of an elderly Neanderthal who had had his forearm amputated years before in his youth. (Surgery 60,000
years ago!) He had been cared for all his life. And in yet another
Neanderthal site, researchers found evidence that the deceased had been buried with flowers.

Care for cripples and burial with flowers give a dimension of humanness to ancient man that earlier scientists would have found astonishing.*
ewtn.com/library/HUMANITY/EVOLUTN.TXT

Darwin’s quotes that praise the beauty of creation are few and far between and his “Descent of Man” certainly does not indicate the marvelous differences evidenced by early man which would indeed show that man is not just another animal…that man has a special dignity. If Darwin truly believed in the immortal soul of man he would not have gone so far and said so much which essentially reduced man to a mere ape.

In Christ, maryjohnz
 
The idea that Darwinian ethics and the slbigensian heresy can be matched up in terms of values does not say that the two match completely.
Or even at all. In fact, as you learned, they would fit your people a lot better than Darwinians.
I believe that evil tends to go from one form and when it is repudiated, and you think it has been defeated it finds a way to warf into another form.
So when Martin Luther’s bigotry was unsuccessful, it came up again, in the anti-Darwinian methods of the Third Reich. You know, the one Ben Stein was making excuses for.
Often it takes time and clarity to realiz it is indeed the same fault of philosophy under a new guise. Of cource there will be some differences otherwise it would be obvious that it was the same thing and easily recognized. I was drawing compariosons between the albigenses heresy and Darwin
based on the fact that both separate the material and the spiritual.
So did Pope Pius XII when he separated the physical which evolves, and the spiritual which does not. So your standard makes Pius XII an Albigensian. :eek:
However I won’t pursue the agument much further as it is off track and will only throw confusion.
False accusations will do that.
We have gotten to a point where
it is clear from Darwin’s notebooks and personal memores that he lost faith in God, that he was prone toward a materialistic view, that he did not seek to emphasize the noble in every human person but rather went out of his way to show people were evolved animals.
Your Pope today has written that humans are evolved animals. That’s what Pius XII meant when he said it was not wrong to argue that our bodies evolved, but we must admit that there is a duality, in which our souls are immediately given by God.
You continually deny that last point yet Darwin seemed very purposeful in making that his main point. His “Descent of Man” draws one parallel after another trying to show that man’s attributes, including his moral conscience and
behaviors, ability to reflect, all can be found in some way in animal behavior.
As Pius XII said, it is permissible to accept that God made some of us by natural means, but not all of us. That duality, you seem to think to be heresy.

And of course, Darwin argued that man had a special dignity that gave him rights to life and liberty.
 
You forget that the Catholic definition of a person is body and soul united and your emphasis on duality goes back again to the Albigensian definition which also emphasized duality.

Since the human person is both body and soul, the soul created specifically for the body of the individual…than talking about the person from a purely materialistic point of view is invalid for it excludes the spiritual aspect of the person. isn’t this exactly what Darwin and many modern scientists do…and it is tantamount to denial of the spiritual.

darwin’s definition of the human person takes away the dignity of the person. I find it to be very much in line with the Albigensian
argument and not akin to the view of Thomas Aquinas who raised man, including his body, to the summit of creation.

“Like Aristotle, he saw the human being as a complete union of soul and body, of matter and form. Thus, in addition to the survival of the soul after death, the resurrection of the body seemed philosophically appropriate as well as religiously true.”
island-of-freedom.com/AQUINAS.HTM

The same article describes Thomas Aquinas approach to understaing the nature of the spiritual:

"Aquinas insisted that the truths of faith and those of sense experience, as presented by Aristotle, are fully compatible and complementary. Some truths, such as that of the mystery of the incarnation, can be known only through revelation, and others, such as that of the composition of material things, only through experience; still others, such as that of the existence of God, are known through both equally. All knowledge, Aquinas held, originates in sensation, but sense data can be made intelligible only by the action of the intellect, which elevates thought toward the apprehension of such immaterial realities as the human soul, the angels, and God. To reach understanding of the highest truths, those with which religion is concerned, the aid of revelation is needed. Aquinas’s moderate realism placed the universals firmly in the mind, in opposition to extreme realism, which posited their independence of human thought. "
island-of-freedom.com/AQUINAS.HTM

Given that description I would say darwin, following Kant was
an extreme realist…

In Chrsit, maryJohnZ
 
You forget that the Catholic definition of a person is body and soul united
I just reminded you of that fact, Mary.
Since the human person is both body and soul, the soul created specifically for the body of the individual…than talking about the person from a purely materialistic point of view is invalid for it excludes the spiritual aspect of the person.
Depends on the circumstances. If I have a cut that needs medical attention, the doctor needs only consider my physical body, and not my soul. He doesn’t even have to believe I have one, in order to treat me properly.
isn’t this exactly what Darwin and many modern scientists do…
Not Darwin. Modern scientists are a very heterogenous bunch, so you could probably find a scientist somewhere who believed almost anything.
and it is tantamount to denial of the spiritual.
Since your own Darwin quote had his affirmation of the spiritual, and since he attributed the origin of life to God, that pretty much settles the question.
Darwin’s definition of the human person takes away the dignity of the person.
Darwin said humans have a spiritual side inaccessible to science, and that they had a right to life and freedom.
I find it to be very much in line with the Albigensian
argument
That could be part of the problem, Mary. You seem to be saying that Catholics are Albigensians, because we think humans have a soul and are entitled to the dignity of life and freedom.
 
I just reminded you of that fact, Mary.

Yes, but you talk of body and soul in a dualistic manner, not as if they are united in a bond that makes them in a sense dependant on eachother.

Depends on the circumstances. If I have a cut that needs medical attention, the doctor needs only consider my physical body, and not my soul. He doesn’t even have to believe I have one, in order to treat me properly.

I question that. On the surface it seems correct to say, but even the way a child is treated for a small cut can make that child either feel that they are cared for body and soul or they have been cared for in a sense of the outward symptoms are taken care of. There is a difference. My husband tellls the story of when he was ltttle and went to a hospital after stepping on a nail in an older building near his home. He had a bad infection because of rust, and the attending physician came in the room, looked at his foot, didn’t talk to him at all…made him feel like an object. That would be treating the body, not the body and the soul.

Not Darwin. Modern scientists are a very heterogenous bunch, so you could probably find a scientist somewhere who believed almost anything.

Since your own Darwin quote had his affirmation of the spiritual, and since he attributed the origin of life to God, that pretty much settles the question.

I believe that was your Darwin quote…my quoteS from darwin show he lost his faith and was agnostic and a materialist in terms of the human person and all of creation. .

Darwin said humans have a spiritual side inaccessible to science, and that they had a right to life and freedom.

Not really, he said science couldn’t talk about a soul…didn’t say he believed in a soul however…

That could be part of the problem, Mary. You seem to be saying that Catholics are Albigensians, because we think humans have a soul and are entitled to the dignity of life and freedom.
That is not what I am saying and you know it. I am saying Darwin’s materialism is another form of the Albigensian heresy… a secular form… but it has the tendency toward dualism, with the human soul being negated to a materialist explanation. Any idea of spiritual aspects are defined as out of the realm of knowable things even ( Immanuel Kant) and so the materialistis aspects are emphasized. I would say Catholicism defines the person as body and soul united and that you can know about spiritual things through the material…quite the opposite of Darwin. darwin seemed to think the material base nature of man was a source for evil, while Catholic teaching is that both body and soul are created good. Sin according to darwin comes to us through
the ‘ape’ we descended from while evil according to catholic teaching comes to us from turning against God and His natural Laws.

In Christ, mary John Z
 
Barbarian observes:
I just reminded you of that fact, Mary.
Yes, but you talk of body and soul in a dualistic manner,
The Church teaches that they are two different things, Mary.

Barbarian observes:
Depends on the circumstances. If I have a cut that needs medical attention, the doctor needs only consider my physical body, and not my soul. He doesn’t even have to believe I have one, in order to treat me properly.
I question that.
I’d be pleased to see your evidence. But you don’t have any. How do I know that? Go take a look for yourself.
My husband tellls the story of when he was ltttle and went to a hospital after stepping on a nail in an older building near his home. He had a bad infection because of rust,
Rust doesn’t cause infection, BTW. I grew up believing that, too. But it’s not true.

Barbarian observes:
Not Darwin. Modern scientists are a very heterogenious bunch, so you could probably find a scientist somewhere who believed almost anything.

Since your own Darwin quote had his affirmation of the spiritual, and since he attributed the origin of life to God, that pretty much settles the question.
I believe that was your Darwin quote…
Nope. It was yours, where you quoted him about humans having spiritual powers beyond the understanding of science.

Barbarian observes:
That could be part of the problem, Mary. You seem to be saying that Catholics are Albigensians, because we think humans have a soul and are entitled to the dignity of life and freedom.
That is not what I am saying and you know it.
That may not be what you wanted to say, but what you said, was an indictment of Catholicism.
 
But does Darwin’s statement that man is part of the animal soecies jive with what Catholics believe in terms of man being created as image of God with body and soul?

St. Thomas said animals represent a ‘trace’ or a form that has a likeness to God. Of course this would make sense. everything created by God would somehow speak of the God who created it…plants, water, air, earth, animals…everything expresses something about God. But Thomas also says that the human person is more than just a likeness or a ‘trace’, that God makes the human being in His own image, and thus he belongs to the same ‘species’ as God. That is a humbling thought for sure!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Theology_of_the_Body
Animals, the likeness of God

But are animals also created in the image of God, who created them? Thomas has a unique answer: in all creatures there is some kind of likeness to God, he argued. But in the thinking person, whom he called “the rational creature,” there is a likeness of “image”; whereas in other creatures we find a likeness by way of a “trace.” [47] Thomas explains the difference between trace and image. “An “image” represents something by likeness in species, while a “trace” represents something by way of an effect, which represents the cause in such a way as not to attain to the likeness of species.

Man is the 'Image" of God:
(same article)
Thomas deals with a number of questions, most importantly, the question of man as image of God. “Since man is said to be the image of God by reason of his intellectual nature, he is the most perfectly like God according to that in which he can best imitate God in his intellectual nature. Now the intellectual nature imitates God chiefly in this, that God understands and loves Himself. Wherefore we see that the image of God is in man in three ways. [45] This means according to Thomas,that man has a natural aptitude for recognizing, understanding and loving God, for which however, he requires His grace.” [46]

The problem with Darwin and much of modern scientific approach
is that it decides that there is no way to consolodate knowledge to bring about a sense of a cohesive system, instead the idea that science cannot talk about the soul leads to the soul not existing for all practical reasons. I don’t know what the answer is other than establishing some kind of theological view of anthropology. I understand that God could have used evolution to produce a human body and man is related to animals but I think that Darwin saying we ARE animals is wrong because I think the human soul as gift to man and married to the human body brings about a species that is above animals.

So I see the dualism of Catholicism to be different from a dualism that makes spirit, soul= good, and body, matter=bad and rather the union of matter with spirit and soul = both are good. The fact is that you define man as having those two parts, but you can’t separate the two parts. Each is important and contributes to the other. The body and the sensate part of man contribute to the soul
and spirit part of man. Suffering through the body refines the soul.
Spiritual union with God immortalizes and spiritualizes matter or the body. Both as equally important and any scientific treatment of the human person which doesn’t consider both in some way is going to be incomplete and false.

The difference between dualism which says there are two different things (body and soul) and Catholic dualism seemd to be expressed in this article:

Good News, Your Soul Hasn’t Died Quite Yet

Alfred J. Freddoso
University of Notre Dame

nd.edu/~afreddos/papers/soul.htm

"But from a Catholic perspective dualism is just as wrongheaded and, in the end, just as pernicious as physicalism. Dualism treats body and soul as two separate substances or, at the very least, two antecedently constituted integral parts of an entity whose unity is per accidens; and it identifies the human self with just the immaterial soul. In this it runs afoul of the Catholic teaching that the soul is the form of the body and that the human body and the human soul are so intimately linked that they derive their identity from one another. Perhaps more precisely, the soul is the form of the human organism as a whole and, as such, makes it to be the sort of living substance it is. Thus, the human body and human soul are not two antecedently constituted integral parts, but rather (to use the scholastic phrase) complementary ‘essential parts’ of an organism whose unity is per se. The Catechism puts it this way:

**“The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the ‘form’ of the body: i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.”(34) **

I am not repudiating Catholic dualism but I am saying Darwinian ethic cannot/ oes not really recognize it by saying man’s moral sense and consciousness are evolved animal traits.

In Christ, maryJohnZ
 
But does Darwin’s statement that man is part of the animal soecies jive with what Catholics believe in terms of man being created as image of God with body and soul?
According to Pope Pius XII, it’s consistent with our faith.
The problem with Darwin and much of modern scientific approach
is that it decides that there is no way to consolodate knowledge to bring about a sense of a cohesive system, instead the idea that science cannot talk about the soul leads to the soul not existing for all practical reasons.
If so, then Pope Benedict should believe that the soul does not exist, since he has pointed out such limitations in science. Your error is in supposing that scientists can only use science.
I don’t know what the answer is other than establishing some kind of theological view of anthropology.
Hence the statement by the International Theological Commission, and the work by Pope John Paul II.

We are animals, of course; the difference is we are not merely animals. And yes, it appears you are repudiating Catholic dualism.
 
That is not what I am saying and you know it. I am saying Darwin’s materialism is another form of the Albigensian heresy… a secular form… but it has the tendency toward dualism, with the human soul being negated to a materialist explanation. Any idea of spiritual aspects are defined as out of the realm of knowable things even ( Immanuel Kant) and so the materialistis aspects are emphasized. I would say Catholicism defines the person as body and soul united and that you can know about spiritual things through the material…quite the opposite of Darwin. darwin seemed to think the material base nature of man was a source for evil, while Catholic teaching is that both body and soul are created good. Sin according to darwin comes to us through
the ‘ape’ we descended from while evil according to catholic teaching comes to us from turning against God and His natural Laws.

In Christ, mary John Z
Excellent insights – thank you.
 
But does Darwin’s statement that man is part of the animal soecies jive with what Catholics believe in terms of man being created as image of God with body and soul?
Jumping in on this …

Darwin’s purpose was to explain all of nature without having to reference God at all. His teaching that man is an animal has had the terrible consequences that you pointed out elsewhere.
But Thomas also says that the human person is more than just a likeness or a ‘trace’, that God makes the human being in His own image, and thus he belongs to the same ‘species’ as God. That is a humbling thought for sure!
Through the grace of God, man can become sanctified and enter into profound union with God (theosis). It’s a radically different order of being than what is found among animals.
The problem with Darwin and much of modern scientific approach
is that it decides that there is no way to consolodate knowledge to bring about a sense of a cohesive system, instead the idea that science cannot talk about the soul leads to the soul not existing for all practical reasons.
Exactly. Darwinism attempts to explain the entire human being. Theistic-Darwinists will explain that the theory only talks about the “material aspect” of humanity. But this is the erroneous dualism that you mentioned. It breaks the unity between body and soul. The soul is the form of the living body and it creates “personhood”.
I understand that God could have used evolution to produce a human body and man is related to animals but I think that Darwin saying we ARE animals is wrong because I think the human soul as gift to man and married to the human body brings about a species that is above animals.
Agreed
So I see the dualism of Catholicism to be different from a dualism that makes spirit, soul= good, and body, matter=bad and rather the union of matter with spirit and soul = both are good. The fact is that you define man as having those two parts, but you can’t separate the two parts. Each is important and contributes to the other. The body and the sensate part of man contribute to the soul
and spirit part of man. Suffering through the body refines the soul.
Spiritual union with God immortalizes and spiritualizes matter or the body. Both as equally important and any scientific treatment of the human person which doesn’t consider both in some way is going to be incomplete and false.
Agreed again. Since, at the resurrection, we will be united again body and soul we can see that God’s intention that the two are united. It’s only by sin and death that they had to be separated.
 
Jumping in on this …

Darwin’s purpose was to explain all of nature without having to reference God at all. His teaching that man is an animal has had the terrible consequences that you pointed out elsewhere.

Through the grace of God, man can become sanctified and enter into profound union with God (theosis). It’s a radically different order of being than what is found among animals.

Exactly. Darwinism attempts to explain the entire human being. Theistic-Darwinists will explain that the theory only talks about the “material aspect” of humanity. But this is the erroneous dualism that you mentioned. It breaks the unity between body and soul. The soul is the form of the living body and it creates “personhood”.

Agreed

Agreed again. Since, at the resurrection, we will be united again body and soul we can see that God’s intention that the two are united. It’s only by sin and death that they had to be separated.

Thanks Reggie, I feel quite insecure in the theology area and I am feeling my way by intuition more than learned knowledge. I am not completely at ease with technical theological terminology and I appreciate the affirmations of what I am trying to say. it is very helpful, otherwise I think i could feel rather unsure I was saying things correctly. \

Looking at some of the articles on soul and body is very challenging to say the least. Pope John Paul II was probably using Theology of the Body to affirm the goodness of the body and human sexuality, procreation, partly because this modern view has gone so far towards the person being an ‘animal’.

Secular sex education certainly does not consider all the ramification of the emotional issues young people struggle with when having sex so early and tends to emphasize the physical actions of sex, not the way it involves the young person’s whole being, including their soul. That is why it has harmed so many young lives I think. The Albigenses heresy in the Middle Ages
said sex was bad, even married sex and the procreation of married sex but now it is warped into another mode which says sex is great outside of marriage and even married sex can be great without procreation. So Procreation is targetted in both forms.

Thank you again for your (name removed by moderator)ut and support.

The discussion so far has tuaght me a lot which is why I stuck with it.

In Christ, maryJohnz
 
According to Pope Pius XII, it’s consistent with our faith.

But again. not a materialistic view of the creation of the human soul…and I am saying Darwin goes too far because human consciousness, moral awareness are part of the human soul and Darwin explains it materialistically. This is in disagreement with Pope Benedict and the church.

If so, then Pope Benedict should believe that the soul does not exist, since he has pointed out such limitations in science. Your error is in supposing that scientists can only use science.

And Pope Benedict has said Theology reigns over science, and has the final say. I agree with that. I am glad you seem to as well.

We are animals, of course; the difference is we are not merely animals. And yes, it appears you are repudiating Catholic dualism.
Our bodies are descended from animals perhaps but we are not animals we are human beings, raised by the generous intervention of God. And our human body has been dignified by likeness to the Divine Image of Christ who became a man and by the pure and holy bodies of the Saints who achieved glorification in their bodies, some becoming incorrupt and especially Mary, Our Queen, who is in heaven body and soul.

In Christ, maryJohnZ
 
This comes down to your disagreement with Catholic teaching that our bodies could be due to evolution, but not our souls.

And if some of our mental capacities were created naturally by God, that would in no way contradict the teaching of the Church.

You’re just uncomfortable with the Church’s teaching on this subject
 
This comes down to your disagreement with Catholic teaching that our bodies could be due to evolution, but not our souls.

And if some of our mental capacities were created naturally by God, that would in no way contradict the teaching of the Church.

You’re just uncomfortable with the Church’s teaching on this subject
The church says God created man. I have no problem with that. The church says evolution is OK to believe in and that it is more than a hypothesis, but does not require any Catholic to believe that conscience or human creativity or intelligence, ability to abstract thought or imagination…we do not have to believe any of that is created by materialistic evolution. Since there are more than one view of evolutionwhy are you so adamant that Darwin’s version is the one Catholics have to accept? Especially given all the points that have been brought up about his agnosticism and materialistic approach to the human person. And then there is his racism and comparisons with animal breeding techniques…there are plenty of reasons to stay away from a Darwinian view of evolution.

Barbarian, you have failed to show that Darwinians argued against
eugenics time and again. You have failed to show Darwin was a Christian in his views on the human person. You have failed to disconnect the Nazis from eugenics and its ties to Darwin, even if it does not come directly from Darwin.

In the end Ben Stein’s statement that science leads to death is true in this instance when Darwin’s theories were used for extreme
secular purposes of racial purity and nationalism. Any time science puts itself over authentic religion as a guide for human endeavor and moral guidance you will run into false values, some of which will be deadly. It happened in gwermany and it happens today.

from an article on a blog:
Darwin, Huxley, the Nazis and the Morality of Science | Beastrabban\'s Weblog

“Part of the horror and intense controversy surrounding such scientific abuse may also derive from the fact that since the Enlightenment science, or its spokesmen, have attempted to claim for it a status as the only reliable guide to morality previously reserved for philosophy and religion. In the 18th century sceptical rationalist philosophers, such as Voltaire, Diderot and Bentham, believed that it was only through the application of human reason that society could be properly reformed, and a just social order created, in contrast to what they saw as the superstition and tyranny created and maintained in traditional European society. In the 19th century, Darwin’s greater defender, T.H. Huxley, strongly believed that science was far more moral, and would be a far better guide to morality, than tradition religious belief. Indeed, ‘Huxley argued at great length to prove that Darwinism would be a greater eithical force than Christinaity had ever been.’ 1 Huxley’s view of the superiority of science as a guide to ethics in contrast to the churches wasn’t unique. In Germany during the 19th century the medical materialism of part of the scientific establishment contributed to a large proportion of the membership of liberal and left-wing movements being composed of doctors and other scientists. These doctors and scientists felt that scientific materialism would create a far more moral society than the repressive society of contemporary Germany, with its feudal social order in which religion was an integral part of the political establishment.”

With all the scientists willing to admit this is true, and historical documents linking the Nazis to eugenics and Darwin it is ridiculous to continue the denials that there is any connection.

Thank you Ben Stein for calling our attention to something we all should be concerned about and we should all work to correct by openning up science to this larger debate and insisting on the full dignity of every human life.

In Chrsit, maryJohnZ
 

Secular sex education certainly does not consider all the ramification of the emotional issues young people struggle with when having sex so early and tends to emphasize the physical actions of sex, not the way it involves the young person’s whole being, including their soul. That is why it has harmed so many young lives I think. The Albigenses heresy in the Middle Ages
said sex was bad, even married sex and the procreation of married sex but now it is warped into another mode which says sex is great outside of marriage and even married sex can be great without procreation. So Procreation is targetted in both forms.

Thank you again for your (name removed by moderator)ut and support.

The discussion so far has tuaght me a lot which is why I stuck with it.

In Christ, maryJohnz
Thanks, Mary. I wondered why you stayed with it so long – but you’re bringing up some very good points along the way.

I agree that much sex education treats people like animals.

Or how about this?

“there is obviously some evolutionary basis to rape just like there is some evolutionary basis to all aspects of living things,” claims anthropologist Craig Palmer, coauthor of A Natural History of Rape. “Rape might be an adaptation. There might have been selective favoring males who raped under some circumstances in the past. And therefore there might be some aspects of mail brains designed specifically to rape under some conditions.” (Thornhill and Palmer – Natural History of Rape).
 
The church says God created man. I have no problem with that.
But you are deeply aggrieved when Darwin says that God created life. This seems inconsistent to me.
The church says evolution is OK to believe in and that it is more than a hypothesis, but does not require any Catholic to believe that conscience or human creativity or intelligence, ability to abstract thought or imagination…we do not have to believe any of that is created by materialistic evolution.
You don’t have to believe materialistic chemistry, or materialistic physics, either.
Since there are more than one view of evolutionwhy are you so adamant that Darwin’s version is the one Catholics have to accept?
You don’t have to accept evolution at all. You can deny electrons, if you like. It’s not required. BTW, even scientists today don’t accept Darwin’s theory as he wrote it; since then, there has been much understanding of evolution, and while Darwin’s basic four points remain valid, many other things he wrote have been found to be wrong.
Especially given all the points that have been brought up about his agnosticism and materialistic approach to the human person.
Turns out that even atheists and agnostics can do science. But of course, Darwin was a Christian when he wrote The Origin of Species.
And then there is his racism
Darwin was a racist in the same sense that Abraham Lincoln was a racist; they both thought that whites were better than blacks. They were not considered racists in their day, because they were more liberal with regard to blacks than most Europeans or Americans. They opposed slavery and asserted that all men were equal in having rights to freedom and the fruits of their labor.
Barbarian, you have failed to show that Darwinians argued against eugenics time and again.
As you learned, Darwin denounced letting even the least of humans die as an overwhelming evil. You learned that Darwinists like Punnett and Morgan denounced eugenics as scientifically unsound. Why deny it?
You have failed to show Darwin was a Christian in his views on the human person.
As you saw, he attributed the origin of life to God.
You have failed to disconnect the Nazis from eugenics and its ties to Darwin
You mean Luther. Darwin denounced even letting the weak die. The Nazis actively followed Luther’s advice on what to do with the Jews, and freely gave him credit for it.
even if it does not come directly from Darwin.
I’d be pleased to see your evidence that Darwin influenced Luther.
In the end Ben Stein’s statement that science leads to death is true in this instance when Darwin’s theories were used for extreme secular purposes of racial purity and nationalism.
You already know that Darwinists showed that classical eugenics had no scientific basis at all. You already know that most of Hitler’s final solution for Jews was taken from Martin Luther’s advice on what to do with them. Why deny it?
"Part of the horror and intense controversy surrounding such scientific abuse may also derive from the fact that since the Enlightenment science, or its spokesmen, have attempted to claim for it a status as the only reliable guide to morality previously reserved for philosophy and religion.
Horsefeathers. You may have noticed on these and other boards that scientist repeatedly say that nature is no place to look for values.
In the 18th century sceptical rationalist philosophers, such as Voltaire, Diderot and Bentham, believed that it was only through the application of human reason that society could be properly reformed, and a just social order created, in contrast to what they saw as the superstition and tyranny created and maintained in traditional European society.
But no scientists? Imagine that. This is why the Anti-Defamation society condemned Stein’s blood libel against science; in doing so, he denied the causes of the Holocaust and made excuses for the Nazis.

His vicious lie that scientists were pushing the Jews into the gas chambers makes it clear that he is merely struggling with some personal demons. And he is losing.
 
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