Benedict and Harry Potter

[estesbob]

I was, actually. After reading the first one I immediately setup a pentagram in my basement.

I set out to make a wand but could never get a Phoenix to stand still long enough to get a hair form their tail! %between%

%between%

 

[TimOliv]

Well, apart from the letter, the Pope has so far made no public pronouncement about it, and he did write it then as a Cardinal.

…so does that make witchcraft less evil? Since the letter came from a guy who was just a Cardinal at the time?

We shouldn’t need the Pope to tell us that Harry Potter is bad news. You have a story about a kid who, using witchcraft (But “good” witchcraft") struggles in his fight against “bad” witchcraft. You need a Pope to tell you that such concepts are going to make witchcraft seem like a perfectly normal thing to kids?

 

[shirleytowers]

It has magic in it. Children’s literature often does because children feel powerless, so stories with magic or superheroes or whatever really resonate with them, as do survival stories with children who are abused, orphaned, abandoned, or lost. There is hardly any quality children’s lit or movie that isn’t along those lines. And these stories are not really about magic or being abused, but about surviving childhood and becoming empowered, but not in a magical way, again. Check out your child and developmental psychology.

Again, you have to go deeper. The kids can and so can you. People who haven’t read them ALL should try it before expounding thie opinions on it. Doesn’t this just make sense?? I always mention that it is fantasy, that anyone who would really try anything like that would be evil or crazy. But the same can be said for so much literature that is just fine. If HP wasn’t so popular, no one would have said anything, but it has come to the attention of the flat earth society, it seems.

I do believe that when we examine the series after the last book comes out we will see a theme that is as Christian as that in the Narnia books, and although it is not as plainly a parallel to Christian truth, it will be surely a parallel nontheless. It has nothing to do with me liking them, and everything to do with the kids liking them. Almost nothing, anyway.

But I suggest we wait until the last book comes out, because until then it is hard to prove one way or the other.

 

[Milliardo]

Really… what was the name of that school the main character – Harry – went to?? Hmmm… Hogwarts School of Divinity?? :nope: Nope, that’s not it…

I think what he meant was that Harry Potter is not about real withcraft. People who have not studied about withcraft and Wicca often assume Harry Potter to teach it; those who know about Wicca would readily see that it doesn’t even begin to teach what Wicca and withcraft is all about. None of the spells and how they’re casted are taught at all in Harry Potter, not even the basics of it. Quite a number of objects that can be used for spellcasting are not present as well, such as the athame. Nor is the purpose of the broom properly made in Harry Potter (they use it to ride). It would help if people first study all about witchcraft, at least if nothing else other than to separate fact from fiction. It helped me in knowing that Harry Potter couldn’t possibly teach withcraft in such a way.

 

[TimOliv]

It has magic in it. Children’s literature often does because children feel powerless, so stories with magic or superheroes or whatever really resonate with them, as do survival stories with children who are abused, orphaned, abandoned, or lost. There is hardly any quality children’s lit or movie that isn’t along those lines. And these stories are not really about magic or being abused, but about surviving childhood and becoming empowered, but not in a magical way, again. Check out your child and developmental psychology.

Again, you have to go deeper. The kids can and so can you. People who haven’t read them ALL should try it before expounding thie opinions on it. Doesn’t this just make sense?? I always mention that it is fantasy, that anyone who would really try anything like that would be evil or crazy. But the same can be said for so much literature that is just fine. If HP wasn’t so popular, no one would have said anything, but it has come to the attention of the flat earth society, it seems.

I do believe that when we examine the series after the last book comes out we will see a theme that is as Christian as that in the Narnia books, and although it is not as plainly a parallel to Christian truth, it will be surely a parallel nontheless. It has nothing to do with me liking them, and everything to do with the kids liking them. Almost nothing, anyway.

But I suggest we wait until the last book comes out, because until then it is hard to prove one way or the other.

If you look deep enough into anything and interpret it in the right way, you can say that the Satanist’s Bible is jam packed with good Christian morality if you really wanted to.

The fact of the matter is, Harry Potter books tell kids that magic is okay. Just hearing the word that often in such a friendly context makes the word “magic” just seem OK after a while.

Then when these children get older and are confronted with Wicca, neo-paganism and other snares of the devil, hearing the word “magic” seems a peaceful, loving and viable alternative to Christ. Spells seem just as innocent as prayers. And then people either cannot believe their children got into it or else say something to the effect of “Oh well, I’d rather they have fun with their Wicca than do drugs”

Tell kids that magic is okay, and they will think that Magick is okay. It’s not okay, its not all in good fun, it is a distraction which takes away from Jesus Christ and the God of Israel and places the emphasis on using whatever metaphysical means at your disposal to obtain what you want and when you want it. Ask Faustus how that worked out.

 

[Milliardo]

The fact of the matter is, Harry Potter books tell kids that magic is okay.

The same way that The Lord of the Rings use magic? Wow. So it must be Satanic now. That would be bad for us Catholics, as it was written by a Catholic. How about the works of C.S. Lewis. No, we shouldn’t read that as well, as they use magic. Anything that uses magic must be bad then. Maybe we should throw out all of our fairy tales, because they use magic? How about Disney? Yeah, they use magic also. Too bad. So we’re reduced now to bad storytelling made by those who try to be “correct”…

 

[TimOliv]

The same way that The Lord of the Rings use magic? Wow. So it must be Satanic now. That would be bad for us Catholics, as it was written by a Catholic. How about the works of C.S. Lewis. No, we shouldn’t read that as well, as they use magic. Anything that uses magic must be bad then. Maybe we should throw out all of our fairy tales, because they use magic? How about Disney? Yeah, they use magic also. Too bad. So we’re reduced now to bad storytelling made by those who try to be “correct”…

We’re reduced to bad storytelling? Actually, I have a great book from which you can draw stories to tell your kids…

We call it the Bible, has two testaments to it, packed with so many stories that you could read it over and over and over again.

When I was a kid there was no Snow White, there was David and Goliath. There was (brace yourself) an attempt to instill faith in children rather than just tell them stories of magic and flawless romances.

 

[Milliardo]

We call it the Bible, has two testaments to it, packed with so many stories that you could read it over and over and over again.

Yeah, the Bible is good, but are all the stories there can be understood by kids? Even most adults get lost with the Bible. It’s great, but my point is, are we limited to it only?

 

[robbmiller]

It has nothing to do with me liking them, and everything to do with the kids liking them.

Exactly

allowing impressionable minds to read any novel simply because "everyone who reads it enjoys it”? is exactly what the letter to the Colossians warns against.

“See to it that no one captivate you with an empty, seductive philosophy according to human tradition, according to the elemental powers of the world and not according to Christ.” [Colossians 2:8].

Reading something because it is ‘liked’ is conforming "to the elemental powers of the world and not according to Christ.”

 

[TimOliv]

Yeah, the Bible is good, but are all the stories there can be understood by kids? Even most adults get lost with the Bible. It’s great, but my point is, are we limited to it only?

So kids are going to get lost in the bible, hand them Lord of the Rings instead?

Of course you’re not limited to that. I used to read the Alfred Hitchcock books, about kids who went about investigating crimes, no magick or detraction from the faith, I read books that were intended for young readers (there was a time when a story didn’t have to include magicians to be interesting).

 

[Milliardo]

So kids are going to get lost in the bible

No, what I mean is if you’ll read the Bible to kids, you might as well be there to guide them. I have a Children’s Bible (still with me after all these years); it’s not complete (naturally) as it has only the salient stories which kids would most likely understand without delving too much into interpretation. I also read fairy tales; did I turn to witchcraft? Satanism? Become one of those neo-pagans? No. I watched Disney. I like watching magical shows. I think I’m very much aware that they’re fantasy, that it cannot happen. I wished it was true then, but that certainly doesn’t mean I had any interest to become a witch. Point is, let the kids be kids. Let them use their imagination–love fantasy, tell stories. You know, those kind of things that make childhood so wonderful. We adults just say, “Oh, that cannot be good; it has blah blah…” We’ve lost that sense of wonderment and enchantment when we were kids. As it was with Peter Pan in Hook, we grew up.

I used to read the Alfred Hitchcock books, about kids who went about investigating crimes, no magick or detraction from the faith

Hitchcock was for kids?

 

[TimOliv]

No, what I mean is if you’ll read the Bible to kids, you might as well be there to guide them. I have a Children’s Bible (still with me after all these years); it’s not complete (naturally) as it has only the salient stories which kids would most likely understand without delving too much into interpretation. I also read fairy tales; did I turn to witchcraft? Satanism? Become one of those neo-pagans? No. I watched Disney. I like watching magical shows. I think I’m very much aware that they’re fantasy, that it cannot happen. I wished it was true then, but that certainly doesn’t mean I had any interest to become a witch. Point is, let the kids be kids. Let them use their imagination–love fantasy, tell stories. You know, those kind of things that make childhood so wonderful. We adults just say, “Oh, that cannot be good; it has blah blah…” We’ve lost that sense of wonderment and enchantment when we were kids. As it was with Peter Pan in Hook, we grew up.

Hitchcock was for kids?

It was a series of books about a group of children who (at a few points in the story even met with the famed producer) but spent their days solving mysteries and crimes.

 

[robbmiller]

The same way that The Lord of the Rings use magic?

Magic in Lord of the Rings was used only by those not from Middle Earth. Michael O’Brien explains it this way:

lifesite.net/features/harrypotter/obrienpotter.html]

Gandalf’s task is primarily to advise, instruct, and arouse to resistance the minds and hearts of those threatened by Sauron, the Dark Lord of this saga. Gandalf does not do the work for them; they must use their natural gifts-and in this we see an image of grace building on nature, never overwhelming nature or replacing it. Gandalf’s gifts are used sparingly, and then only so far as they assist the other creatures in the exercise of their free will and their moral choices.

…

In the Harry Potter series, for example, Harry resists and eventually overcomes Voldemort with the very powers the Dark Lord himself uses. Harry is the reverse image of Frodo. Rowling portrays his victory over evil as the fruit of esoteric knowledge and power. This is Gnosticism. Tolkien portrays Frodo’s victory over evil as the fruit of humility, obedience and courage in a state of radical suffering. This is Christianity. Harry’s world is about pride, Frodo’s about sacrificial love.

How about the works of C.S. Lewis.

Lewis’ work is an intentional allegory. Aslan’s magic is clearly the work of God. The White Witch is clearly associated with evil. Aslan’s magic is creative, selfless, and never used to thwart the freewill of others. The Witch’s magic is destructive, selfish and used to sway the will of others. In the end the characters are redeemed by sacrifice, not by magic.

According to the Catechism:

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others—even if this were for the sake of restoring their health—are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion.

According to this rule, Aslan and Gandalf are safe – as demonstrated above. Harry on the other hand uses magic that is contrary to CCC 2117.

[SIGN][/SIGN]

 

[Milliardo]

Magic in Lord of the Rings was used only by those not from Middle Earth.

Gandalf is certainly from Middle Earth. Many of the Elves lived in Middle Earth. Even the hobbits have a sort-of magic in them, though not as clearly defined as that of Gandalf or the Elves. Even the dwarves have this same sort-of magic the hobbits did.

Lewis’ work is an intentional allegory. Aslan’s magic is clearly the work of God.

Still magic; O’Brien does not deny it so. in fact, he affirms:

Aslan’s magic is creative, selfless, and never used to thwart the freewill of others.

If one studies Wicca, the magic they do should not in any way interfere with another’s fereewill or decision, exactly as Aslan’s magic is. Bottomline is, it’s still magic

 

[robbmiller]

Gandalf is certainly from Middle Earth.

The Wizards arrived in Middle-earth after the end of the first millennium of the Third Age. They were sent by the Valar to aid Elves and Men. They are not from Middle Earth.

Still magic; O’Brien does not deny it so. in fact, he affirms:

These were actually my own words and not O’brien’s

If one studies Wicca, the magic they do should not in any way interfere with another’s fereewill or decision, exactly as Aslan’s magic is.

This is not true. Wicca teaches, “do no harm”. If bending the will of another does not, in the caster’s mind, violate this rule then it is acceptable. In fact, bending the will of others is the point of most ‘spells’ (a love spell for example).

I am unfortunate enough to have had experience with those whom practice Wicca. Perhaps it is why I more clearly see the dangers of the pagan influence in the Potter series.

[SIGN][/SIGN]

 

[Milliardo]

The Wizards arrived in Middle-earth after the end of the first millennium of the Third Age. They were sent by the Valar to aid Elves and Men. They are not from Middle Earth.

Doesn’t discount the fact they used magic, and in fact the Elves themselves were magical.

This is not true. Wicca teaches, “do no harm”. If bending the will of another does not, in the caster’s mind, violate this rule then it is acceptable. In fact, bending the will of others is the point of most ‘spells’ (a love spell for example).

A love spell is not consistent with the Wiccan Rede as it might do harm as well; Wiccan spells are made to minimize, if not totally avoid, bending another’s will. Thus Wiccan spellcasting tries to avoid involving another person directly, or bending his will to the caster’s will. I am not certain about other forms of witchcraft, though with Wicca I am certain that to bend another’s will would be to violate the Rede.

I am unfortunate enough to have had experience with those whom practice Wicca. Perhaps it is why I more clearly see the dangers of the pagan influence in the Potter series.

Hhmm…solitary or with a coven?

 

[TimOliv]

Let’s not forget that any of this witchcraft is seeking truth in all of the wrong places.

 

[Milliardo]

Let’s not forget that any of this witchcraft is seeking truth in all of the wrong places.

That I can agree with.

 

[PopePaddy]

Listen, kids. What we have to acknowledge here is that Harry Potter doesn’t live in our world, where “magic” and the occult are synonyms, where the kinds of things that take place in the books can only come either from direct collaboration with Satan (whether knowingly or not) or from the direct intervention of God.

Rather, the world in which Harry Potter lives, the one invented by J.K. Rowling, and not the one created by God (the real world), is one in which magical ability is not a result of the intervention of spiritual beings, but is in fact an ability which corresponds, as far as I can tell, with musical, mathematical, or linguistic ability. Essentially, in the world of Harry Potter, magic simply is not the evil that it is in our world.

Now, the argument that Harry Potter can possibly corrupt children remains, if you are willing to adapt it to saying that children are incapable of seeing that Harry Potter is fiction and that reality is fact. However, anyone who can distinguish fact from fiction should be able to distinguish the occult from the fictional magic of Harry Potter (which, incidentally, is the same fictional magic that allows wizards to be wizards throughout LOTR, Arthurian legends, and the like).

Thus, the morality of the books boils down more to a subjective determination of whether a child will be deceived into thinking that the things done in the book can be sinlessly done in the real world. And that, dear friends, is a determination that lies mostly with age.

There endeth the lesson.

 

[Liberalsaved]

Listen, kids. What we have to acknowledge here is that Harry Potter doesn’t live in our world, where “magic” and the occult are synonyms, where the kinds of things that take place in the books can only come either from direct collaboration with Satan (whether knowingly or not) or from the direct intervention of God.

Rather, the world in which Harry Potter lives, the one invented by J.K. Rowling, and not the one created by God (the real world), is one in which magical ability is not a result of the intervention of spiritual beings, but is in fact an ability which corresponds, as far as I can tell, with musical, mathematical, or linguistic ability. Essentially, in the world of Harry Potter, magic simply is not the evil that it is in our world.

Now, the argument that Harry Potter can possibly corrupt children remains, if you are willing to adapt it to saying that children are incapable of seeing that Harry Potter is fiction and that reality is fact. However, anyone who can distinguish fact from fiction should be able to distinguish the occult from the fictional magic of Harry Potter (which, incidentally, is the same fictional magic that allows wizards to be wizards throughout LOTR, Arthurian legends, and the like).

Thus, the morality of the books boils down more to a subjective determination of whether a child will be deceived into thinking that the things done in the book can be sinlessly done in the real world. And that, dear friends, is a determination that lies mostly with age.

There endeth the lesson.

This is quite possibly the most logical way to look at the subject matter I have yet to see here. I agree; fictional worlds operate by their own fictional rules. I find it amazing that most kids can distinguish between the two, where many adults cannot.